Thai drag bike tires.

zerodish

10 mW
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
32
These showed up on a land speed bike built by Chris Garcia. Information is hard to find but it looks like they are available in 60mm and 80mm width for 17 inch rims. The rims are 1.4 or 1.6 inch wide. This is what I have been looking for something tougher than a bicycle tire but not too wide. I would like a larger diameter.
 
modifikasi-drag-sonic-150r.jpg


Pretty cool stuff.
 
I love those Thai drag bikes. If any Thai drag bike teams want to see what 120-250hp of pure EV thrust feels like to ride, please contact me.
 
18 inch wheels are easier to get into.

You need a 22" BMX rim and an 18" motorcycle tire. You end up with a total of 23" in diameter, and your wheel build can use standard bike spokes.

No need for a specialized hybrid motorcycle-bicycle wheel.. and the art of building those has kinda been lost.. :/
 
If anyone has any links on the design of a Tai drag bike, I would love to see them. Very much so appreciated.

Overclocker said:
btw this tire costs like us$ 10
Good they should be that cheap. I pay 28$ for the 19" Duro 71mph rated tire I ride every day. So far I have some 10K miles on tehm... soon to be replaced. Certainly. I cannot afford an Avon or a Mitchlin or a Conti, Metzeller, or Dunlop, ect. So I ride with Duro moped tires. I would love to find a nice slick in 19" for sure. Affordable. I laugh a people who pay 80$ for atop of the line Maxxis just to patch the ebike snakebites and punctures ten times in the season. Lol. Every other day i was patching my bicycle tubes with bicycle tires.


18 inch wheels are easier to get into.

You need a 22" BMX rim and an 18" motorcycle tire. You end up with a total of 23" in diameter, and your wheel build can use standard bike spokes.

No need for a specialized hybrid motorcycle-bicycle wheel.. and the art of building those has kinda been lost.. :/

I think 17" looks silly small on a bicycle. 18" are a sweet spot, and I wish there was more in 19". Biggest holes I have seen in a bicycle hub is 12g, 2.8mm hole. Sur Ron 19" rim. Bigger than that, you have to drill out. Yes, some have said to me that 12g would be fine for my 30lb 205 50H motor, but.. have 12g on my 1000w motor and they look a little weak. I tork tubes all the time. They move, maybe I have to much talc in the tire... The stem is always pointing some weird way. I have to deflate, reposition the tube, reinflate. ...but the 12g look.. a little wimpy on my 1000w bike, I dont think I want to use 12g for a motor 2x the weight. I bet if I tried hard enough I could rip the 12g moped spokes out the rim. If I impact it, yank it around a little, really try... We have all seen the hub motors that ripped out their spokes. Some have said it will be fine, IDK. I have two spoked, old, real MC in the garage, and all five of those rims have very heavy, 10g or 8g spokes, from the manufacturer ( Honda). For a measly 70/80hp. IDK.


liveforphysics said:
any Thai drag bike teams want to see what 120-250hp of pur

... on a 100mm section tire? How is that gonna work out? Lol. Bahahaha.

Ive spun a rear tire at 155mph just shifting onto 5th..... with.. a 9 second bike. Sitting on a multi-compound 195/55ZR17.... that bike was only 150hp to the wheel and a heavy 400lbs..... Shredded four, five, tires a season, not racing. Just riding.

Maybe you will make some smoke.

How you goonna put down any power.... with a 100mm section tire.

I would go as far as to say it is impossible. ( 120horsies? 3" of rubber? bahahahaha you could have 1000hp traction motor and it wouldn't matter, you would never see it.. Tire would be overcome.. ) ). IDK. Maybe it is possible. Maybee.

Lol.


I do wonder the power out of those Tai bikes. Are they over 100 hp? Probably not, If I would guess, single cyl, rational stroke and bore, around 40-60hp. Down. I wonder how much they make, power wise. Putting 250hp in one would be like.. putting 2500hp in a minivan.. with the minivan tires. Aint gonna work well for drag racing. 10X more power than you can use is pointless. Unless you have the tire to back it up.


Anyway, I am in constant searching for of a good 19" street tires in a 80, 90, or 100 section. Cant find any. Would love to find some. I can find all the street tires I need in 16', 17', ad 18". Some tires are hard to find. No such thing as a good street tread 19". I have not found one that is available for purchase.

I would love to find a tire available for purchase, in 19", that looks like a rocketbike slick. Cannot find anything.
 
DogDipstick said:
liveforphysics said:
any Thai drag bike teams want to see what 120-250hp of pur

... on a 100mm section tire? How is that gonna work out? Lol. Bahahaha.

Ive spun a rear tire at 155mph just shifting onto 5th.... with.. a 9 second bike. Sitting on a multi-compound 195/55ZR17.... that bike was only 150hp to the wheel and a heavy 400lbs.....

You disregard the kind of traction management made possible by electric motors with closed loop electronic control. It's possible to keep the tire on the edge of its traction envelope right up until available torque drops below that value. Your throttle hand can't do that trick.
 
Chalo said:
DogDipstick said:
liveforphysics said:
any Thai drag bike teams want to see what 120-250hp of pur

... on a 100mm section tire? How is that gonna work out? Lol. Bahahaha.

Ive spun a rear tire at 155mph just shifting onto 5th.... with.. a 9 second bike. Sitting on a multi-compound 195/55ZR17.... that bike was only 150hp to the wheel and a heavy 400lbs.....

You disregard the kind of traction management made possible by electric motors with closed loop electronic control. It's possible to keep the tire on the edge of its traction envelope right up until available torque drops below that value. Your throttle hand can't do that trick.


Nah, I include traction controls. The most advanced traction control system will not make you put down more power. My ZX10r had Traction control. I did not use it. I have ridden a s100rr with traction control on. A twenty year older bike without TC would (did) eat it for breakfast.

Force is force. No getting past that. Friction is friction.

Tire will take a SET amount of friction. No matter the force (driving) behind it. Can have 10,000 hp available for acceleration, wont matter, .... if the tork overcomes the tire, the tire will unload and you will lose the ( that) acceleration vector...

.....two stepping launch control and ignition retard on wheel speed sensor hysteresis is something I have played with before in standalone racecar EFi systems. You take the power away,, with the traction control. You dont put more power down.

Fatter tires will always give a better time on identical drag machines, one with fat Ferrari-esque rear tires, and one with TC and skinny tires. The one with the fat tires and no traction control will win. Every time.

Yeah I've played with that. Not that complicated. Yes it will make your timeslip better. Still, it is the bleeding edge of traction. Only so much of that traction available for a certain footprint that the force travels through. However, I never had an ebike that this would even remotely be a necessity... I can spin the rubber round all day if I hold the brake, rolling ( load the rear wheel up, past its point of traction)... but... when it is free to go, it wont spin. No. I dont have the torque available for that kind of acceleration. Not to break loose a tire underway. Just doesnt have it. Unless I am on ice or snow, but then you dont go anywhere. You slow down when spinning round in the snow like a mad ebike drifter at 35mph... Its kinda silly, but fun. When it unloads the power goes to nil. Traction control might make you go from point A to point B a little faster.. but... does not make the prime mover develop a greater tork, just because. All TC systems I know of. Maybe there is a system I dont know about.

It is a good idea though. Like Sketch Coleman with his "ebike wheelie control" thingy... I think that used some kind of the same algorithm. Maybe an accelerometer,, or full fledged 3 axis Gyro... IDK. Maybe VR sensors. I wonder if Tai drag bikes are that complicated.


tuningtips_bpmltw_tcsettings.jpg

Here is a link to Sketch's fourth revision. Yeah I think it is a gyroscope. They are cheap and everywhere nowadays. . Still, takes power away, doesnt make it put more power down. The prime mover is the only thing making the power.... and traction control does not " add extra power"... it reduces the power. Certainly.


It " throttles" the throttle signal.
https://evnerds.com/electric-vehicles/e-motorcycle-news/auto-wheelie-any-electric-bike-without-balancing-skills/box1.jpg

Chalo said:
DogDipstick said:
liveforphysics said:
120-250hp
... on a 100mm section tire? How is that gonna work out? Lol. Bahahaha.
You disregard the

Nope. Aint gonna do it. Try as hard as you like, fanciest TC system you can buy, .... Aint gonna put down 120hp-250hp on a 3 inch wide tire on the tarmac with a 1" x 1" contact patch. Nope. Not even with the best roadracing rubber available today, on the smoothest track... Could have all the power in the world ( megawatts? gigawatts? ) and the instant the tire loses its friction all that power will go out the window.

Like I said, it is not very hard, to break loose a 195/55 ( about an 8 inch wide section tire) with only 150hp. Put a car tire on the rear of your drag bike... ( 10-13" wide tire) ...Then you can put down some more powa.

Put a car tire on the back of your Alcohol fueled 1400cc Harley drag bike and you might shave 3 - 4 seconds off that. Put a 195/50 on a Alcohol fueld Hardly Ambleson with 500hp.. I BET THE 150HP BIKE RUNS THE QUARTER FASTER. With 4x more power and half the A/F ratio. Would be silly ( and smokey) watching a alcohol fueld Harley trying to run a 195/55 tire. Even deflated. Alcohol drag bikes dont mess with anything else, should they be competitive.

A 160hp, GXXR 1000 with a flattened tire and a fork strap will eat a 200hp, 1300cc, Hayabusa in the quarter mile with a normally inflated tire... ( same tire, make model and size) .... (unless the Hayabusa has a car tire one rear.).

I have seen this happen a hundred times plus at the races.
 
My GSXR1000 used to iceskate down the drag strip too, because it's rear tire is made for corners and only rides on a small bit of an often harder tire rubber compound down the middle.

[youtube]P2hgK-wZ1XA[/youtube]

That gentleman at the end runs a 9.37 ET on a tire more narrow than my mountain bike.
It also doesn't appear he is experiencing traction drama to accomplish his run, but he is definitely falling flat on his acceleration on the back half of the track.

He can keep his same 60ft time, not asking for more tire/traction, I just want to keep him accelerating at that same early track rate of thrust clear through the 1/4mile traps for him. And like Chalo mentioned, the magic of EV traction control will make them more consistent and faster accelerating than ever before. Just because OEM sport bikes come with safety nanny traction control maps to block all slip hazard risk doesn't mean traction control tuned to maintain the ideal thrust slip ratio% all the way down the track isn't an incredible advantage. All the drag classes that permit traction control are dominated by the cars that use it.

Folks run 3500+hp in the 'small tire' 10.5inch max tire contact width restricted classes today, and run 3.85@202mph in the 1/8th mile...
The Thai bike has at least 1.25inch of tire width to a single rear wheel, which scales the same tire area loading at ~200hp.

If some brave Thai race team wants to find out, excited to help sponsor the right bits for success.
 
liveforphysics said:
My GSXR1000 used to iceskate down the drag strip too, because it's rear tire is made for corners and only rides on a small bit of an often harder tire rubber compound down the middle.


That gentleman at the end runs a 9.37 ET on a tire more narrow than my mountain bike.


You did not deflate the rear tire? Running 9's on a strip with a stock 160hp Gixxer? With a fully inflated tire?

My ZX did a 9.9 stock. Stock. Next to impossible to better that time. 188hp. Never used half of it, I bet. ON a track. Tire would break loose, or the front end would come up. We all have seen cars and bikes losing traction on the dyno, and what happens to the numbers.

So you think he has more than 120hp on that 1.25"? How much power do you think it makes, that 150cc two stroke? You really think more power would help make a faster time? Or just overcome the tire? I dont know how they make that kind of time on a tire with that footprint. That tweaky high rev two stroker engine must have like what, 23- 35 ft lbs of tork? Lol.

A Gix 1K will eat a Busa, off the line, every time. For some reason or another. IDk. Same rear tires, very similar bikes, in weight, much different power outputs rated. 160hp vs 200 hp. There becomes a point when the power just cannot be put down. ( its around 9ooo rpm on a 5th gear shift on a ZX10 at 160 mph.. Thats all Iknow.. Dont do that. ) )



Tire loading. Now we are getting somewhere. Enumeration. Lets look at it. I do not agree with your proportional scaling of tire loading vs power.

21 inch wide, ( two wheels, car) , 3500 hp =

3500/21 = hp/inch of width. 175? Hp/ inch of tire width. They break that loose.



200/1.25 = 160 hp / inch.

160 =/= 175..

However, compound temperature of tire, the available mass, the skill of the driver, erases that differences. Fundamentally. For all purposes, lets say 160 ~ 175, negligible difference.

So yeah They are very much the same. I see that.

I dont get it. Something bothers me, about that, fundamentally. Maybe its just ingrained in my brain, but I cannot imagine 160hp on a tire of that 1.25" loading. Something bothers me about that number. i dont know what it is. I would think any power excess would rip it loose from its mooring. Maybe I will figure it out by the end of the day. IDK.

If the car tires with the 3500hp have a (10.5 x 2")(2 wheels) contact, 42 square inches... doesn't that contact area go up? Now we have a greater amount of friction... 3500hp over the 42 square inches: ~83hp per square inch of contact.

The single TaiDrag 1.25" x 2 " = 2.5" squared... For that 200 hp... Yup you still have ~80hp/square inch of contact. So you are right there.

Do 3500 hp drag racers have more than 2" of contact upon application of the power? If the contact patch was ( reasonably) 4" x 10.5"... ( 10.5 x 4" )(2 wheels) = 84 square inches for that 10.5" wide patch ... Now wear e at a ~41 hp/square inch, much much lower than 83hp/square inch...

Do (3500hp) drag cars sit on 2" contact patches when they take off? Teh whole race? I would think it was more contact area.. ie why we deflate our 8" wide rocketbike tires for the drags. To get more patch. If you try to run a fully inflated tire you lose. Spin City. Deflate that effer. Double the patch.

I do not know. I'll figure it out. Somethings bothering me about all this, " 160hp/inch " stuff. Does not seem feasible with my experiences on rocketbikes, bicycles, and the like. Thanks for humoring me, Luke.

Something is still bothering me about it. IDK what it is.

For some reason I still think that. Also, I dont think drag tires on 3500 hp cars are.. 10.5 x 2".. More like 40hp/square inch, vs the 80hp / square inch.. of the prior eq... But I dont know exactlyhow that works. Maybe that is what bothers me, a car drag tire on 3500 hp is MUCh less (tyre) loading proportionally IF the tire has a 10.5" x 4" patch rather than a 2" patch. Maybe I am just fudging the numbers to make it work. IDK. Increase the dimension ( slightly deflate the tire) on the TaiDrag bike to 1.25" x 4" and you get the same result. 40hp/square inch, scaled like you said, almost equally.
 
Point is, the more HP you have available and under electronic control, the higher the speed you can reach with the tire still at the limit of adhesion. You might not launch any harder than if you had less HP, but you will accelerate longer.
 
Just to clarify, I never said they are currently at 120hp. My HP to weight estimates put them averaging 58rwhp if the rider is 100lbs and bike 125lbs. To average that power the peak is a bit higher, say 65hp with a very light rider. They are running nitrous on whatever fuel with those engines that only need to live 10sec between getting rebuilt with a new piston and top end.

Im just saying, the first half of the track is great, more HP let's the second halfs acceleration also stay great. No wimpy aluminum piston face to be limited by melting through.
 
Well, in F1 racing if they could have got away with bicycle width tires they would have done that, right? No aero nightmare to manage... well, obviously they did not.
Things, of course, are more complex than that: F1 tires are literally 'flypaper full of glue', have rolling resistance of a piece of silly putty, are thrown away after a race (or even MID-race) and of course since you are running on literal adhesion, 'classic friction' no longer apply (that friction is directly proportional to mass and friction coefficient, NOT contact patch size).

Bike/moto tires are not that crazy...
 
If an F1 race was just a quarter mile long and straight, the front wheels would be bicycle thin or thinner. But then it would be top fuel not F1.
 
I raced big wheel 57cc and 85cc mini's back in the middle 90's and used those tires. They were either Dunlops or Michelins and were niether inexpensive nor easy to get. I can't remember the exact size, something like 80/70 X 17 and from a distance they look like someone mounted an intertube on the rim. Silly small. I used to scrouge the GP125 races and beg for used ones from folks like Rodney Fee and John Hopkins. Heck, they were only worn out on one side (I flipped the around:). Being that they were soft compound slicks, I wouldn't use the on they street even if they were available. They would cut easily and lose it at the sight of sand or debries.
 
I gotta a 'Busa story.
In the late '90's, I was wrenching at a Mega dealership in Wash. DC and we received the first 'Busa in the area. The service manager (A drag racer) and I unboxed it and rolled it out in the parking lot. It idled smoothly, gently rumbling at 1100 rpm and I started to wonder what was the big deal until he reached over and blipped the throttle and the tach needle slammed into the red-line. He looked up at me and grinning said, "Pro stock".
We sold that bike to the president of the DC Sportbike Riders Club and didn't see him for a a week or two when one day he came in and declared, "This Jones be cutting out at 150!" The service manager and I looked at each other like, "ok, what do you want us to do?" Appearently, he started calling Suzuki of America and one day we got a call to take it in and see what was up with it.
I got the job and took it to a frontage road I knew and had just shifted into 4th when it died, right at 150 mph. It staredt right up, so I rode it back to the shop and called Suzuki. "I think it is staving for fuel, either the fuel filter or pump". The tech rep said, "Oh yeah, we know about that and have a mid-production fuel pump fix in the works". Duh, then why have me ride it, I thought.
The second one we got, we sold to a skinny kid (you know, 140# in soaking wet leathers), who was a pretty successful racer at the local tracks. He asked me to set it up for him, but frankly, there wasn't much to do. With no aftermarket stuff yet and not wanting to get into the carbs, I just strapped down the forks and drilled three 1/2 inch holes in the underside of each of the canisters. He ran 9.47 @ 147 mph that night!
 
The important measure would be if the tire is getting enough bite to flip the bike. Back in the early 80's you could get the most popular Dunlops in an 'R' compound that made the difference between spinning out and flipping on a 50HP RD350. Wheelie bars fixed the flipping issue and I suspect grippy tires doing some slipping is quicker than zero-slip traction control.

A great application for traction control would be wheelie bars with electric-driven wheels.
 
If you're flipping over too easily, it's easy to grow the swing arms until it stops flipping.

The Thai bike scene needs some big EV power. :)
 
I get 2500 miles out of a Kevlar belted 1.5 inch tire. Tires fatter than this fail at the sidewall without much warning. I read the motorcycle tire threads here and elsewhere. The narrowest motorcycle tire is 2.75 inches. I want something that will fit in a standard bike frame. You want the largest diameter tire that you can get. There is a limit if the top tube touches the down tube the frame will break even if you are a lightweight person riding a nonmotorized bike. Terry figured this out and used a 24 inch tire for some of her frames.
 
zerodish said:
The narrowest motorcycle tire is 2.75 inches. There is a limit if the top tube touches the down tube the frame will break even if you are a lightweight person riding a nonmotorized bike. Terry figured this out and used a 24 inch tire for some of her frames.

I am installing a 2.5" motorcycle tire today on a 19" rim. Actually a pair. I got 10,000 miles from these tires. They worked well so I bought them again. You can get thinnner, like 2.25 or 2", DOT rated, beaded rim tires. They certainly make less than 2.75".

Also, i dont quite understand what you say about " top tube touching the down tube"? Doesnt the " Top" tube touch the " Down tube" at the headset?
 
zerodish said:
There is a limit if the top tube touches the down tube the frame will break even if you are a lightweight person riding a nonmotorized bike. Terry figured this out and used a 24 inch tire for some of her frames.

There is no such limit. Georgena Terry used small front wheels to address the problem of toe overlap in short frames.

Lots of successful short people bikes have used convergent top and down tubes without any issues.

s-l1600.jpg
 
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Hooray for them making EV race bikes!

When a team is interested in turning 18kW power into 180kW peak power, please contact me for sponsorship to make it happen.
 
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