IGH's and mid-mount motors

Joined
May 29, 2022
Messages
93
Hello All,
Still doing my armchair engineering thing for my bike project.
I've been trying to get a good match between mid motors and IGH's.

Mainly, are there any IGH's out there that can handle the torque?

I really like enviolo stepless auto hub where you set your cadence speed and the tranny automatically keeps you at that speed.

Problem is, for me, I'm having trouble getting specs. Online sellers seem to be selling more different models than the 3-4 that are actually being made.

I thought there was a hub called Sportiv with a 120nm rating.
Isn't that strong enough to handle a mid-mount motor?

Of the crazy expensive IGH hubs I think only the new model from Kindernay, the 7 can handle the torque of a mid-mount motor.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks,
Daniel
 
biphaeboh said:
Rohloff is 130 Nm.

The new Kindernay 7 is 150nm I think..

Is 130 or 150 even enough compared to the torque values a stock BBSHD can put out?
What about a modded BBSHD running 3000w?
 
The Madmadscientist said:
biphaeboh said:
Rohloff is 130 Nm.

The new Kindernay 7 is 150nm I think..

Is 130 or 150 even enough compared to the torque values a stock BBSHD can put out?
What about a modded BBSHD running 3000w?

160 Nm for the Kindernay VII

I have no idea. My gut feeling is no, but i am hoping someone with more knowledge can set us straight.
A stock BBSHD supposedly produces 160Nm torque. Would hate to wreck a $2000 hub by over torqueing it.
 
biphaeboh said:
The Madmadscientist said:
biphaeboh said:
Rohloff is 130 Nm.

The new Kindernay 7 is 150nm I think..

Is 130 or 150 even enough compared to the torque values a stock BBSHD can put out?
What about a modded BBSHD running 3000w?

160 Nm for the Kindernay VII

I have no idea. My gut feeling is no, but i am hoping someone with more knowledge can set us straight.
A stock BBSHD supposedly produces 160Nm torque. Would hate to wreck a $2000 hub by over torqueing it.

And that 160nm is probably for a stock 48v 1000W motor....dang I was really hoping this would work...
 
biphaeboh said:
The Madmadscientist said:
biphaeboh said:
Rohloff is 130 Nm.

The new Kindernay 7 is 150nm I think..

Is 130 or 150 even enough compared to the torque values a stock BBSHD can put out?
What about a modded BBSHD running 3000w?

160 Nm for the Kindernay VII

I have no idea. My gut feeling is no, but i am hoping someone with more knowledge can set us straight.
A stock BBSHD supposedly produces 160Nm torque. Would hate to wreck a $2000 hub by over torqueing it.

And that 160nm is probably for a stock 48v 1000W motor....dang I was really hoping this would work...
Well, what I was really, really hoping is that enviolo had a hub that would work..
 
The Madmadscientist said:
And that 160nm is probably for a stock 48v 1000W motor....dang I was really hoping this would work...
Well, what I was really, really hoping is that enviolo had a hub that would work..

Remember that's 160 Nm at the crank, and you can modify it as much as you like with your chain drive ratio. Make it 44/16 for instance, and the wheel sees just 58 Nm (plus your pedal torque, also subject to the same ratio).
 
The Shimano IGH 7 and 8 speed hubs are very robust.
I've used (misused ?) them on tandems, pedicabs, heavy work trikes, pedal / electrics.
They lack the wide ratios of other brands but are far less expensive.
They must have a power interrupter when shifting.
Most recent build has a Bafang 750 BBS02 powering a Nexus 7.
 
PaPaSteve said:
The Shimano IGH 7 and 8 speed hubs are very robust.
I've used (misused ?) them on tandems, pedicabs, heavy work trikes, pedal / electrics.
They lack the wide ratios of other brands but are far less expensive.
They must have a power interrupter when shifting.
Most recent build has a Bafang 750 BBS02 powering a Nexus 7.

Perhaps a BBS02 would be a better choice for that kind of set up. The Shimano hubs have the advantage of being cheap compared to a Rohloff or a Kindernay. Wouldn't feel so bad to trash them.

I had Nexus on a non electric city bike a few years back. Compared to a Rohloff it was rough and felt chintzy. I've heard the Alfines are better but have not tried one.
 
biphaeboh said:
Perhaps a BBS02 would be a better choice for that kind of set up. The Shimano hubs have the advantage of being cheap compared to a Rohloff or a Kindernay. Wouldn't feel so bad to trash them.

I had Nexus on a non electric city bike a few years back. Compared to a Rohloff it was rough and felt chintzy. I've heard the Alfines are better but have not tried one.

Rohloff is a beautifully made hub with a wide range. If you don't mind the weight.
I've owned several bikes with the Rohloff. Sold them all.
Still have three bikes with Shimano IGH's.
One has the Alfine 8 the other two have Nexus 7.
For the titanium framed pedal bike (no motor) I disassembled the hub, cleaned out the grease and refilled the hub with a couple ounces of TriFlow oil.

Here's a 2001 efficiency report for IGH's and regular derailleur systems.
http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf
Here's something from 2017.
https://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems/

As Always
Your Results May Vary
 
PaPaSteve said:
biphaeboh said:
Perhaps a BBS02 would be a better choice for that kind of set up. The Shimano hubs have the advantage of being cheap compared to a Rohloff or a Kindernay. Wouldn't feel so bad to trash them.

I had Nexus on a non electric city bike a few years back. Compared to a Rohloff it was rough and felt chintzy. I've heard the Alfines are better but have not tried one.

Rohloff is a beautifully made hub with a wide range. If you don't mind the weight.
I've owned several bikes with the Rohloff. Sold them all.
Still have three bikes with Shimano IGH's.
One has the Alfine 8 the other two have Nexus 7.
For the titanium framed pedal bike (no motor) I disassembled the hub, cleaned out the grease and refilled the hub with a couple ounces of TriFlow oil.

Here's a 2001 efficiency report for IGH's and regular derailleur systems.
http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf
Here's something from 2017.
https://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems/

As Always
Your Results May Vary

Interesting stuff, thanks.

You would never get me to switch from a Rohloff to a Shimano IGH, but I would be tempted to try an Alfine or Enviolo on an ebike.
I would like to build a Rohloff belt drive ebike, but the complications involved in such a project are more than I want to handle right now.

So many interesting things to try, so little time, so much expense.
 
Have you checked out the Evelo Atlas?
https://evelo.com/products/atlas#components

It has paired a Bafang M600 with the Enviolo Trekking CVT. This sounds like it might work well enough for me to try. I can't stop looking at it. The biggest issue is they keep putting off delivery dates, a month at a time.
 
AHicks said:
Have you checked out the Evelo Atlas?
https://evelo.com/products/atlas#components

It has paired a Bafang M600 with the Enviolo Trekking CVT. This sounds like it might work well enough for me to try. I can't stop looking at it. The biggest issue is they keep putting off delivery dates, a month at a time.

Yup, looks interesting. If I wanted to buy a stock ebike, i would definitely look at that one.

Where is the fun in buying an off the shelf bike, when you can build your own, mixing and matching parts and components and frames? With the right stuff you can get a better bike at half the price. And so much more satisfying to build your own.
 
biphaeboh said:
.... so much more satisfying to build your own.
Have you ever heard that old Johnny Cash tune "One Piece at a Time"?
 
The Madmadscientist said:
Mainly, are there any IGH's out there that can handle the torque

250nm max

https://bikerumor.com/3x3-nine-no-maintenance-internal-gear-hub/
 
biphaeboh said:
maiz said:
The Madmadscientist said:
Mainly, are there any IGH's out there that can handle the torque

250nm max

https://bikerumor.com/3x3-nine-no-maintenance-internal-gear-hub/

Very cool.
Lets see how it goes.

It's vaporware until it isn't.
 
maiz said:
The Madmadscientist said:
Mainly, are there any IGH's out there that can handle the torque

250nm max

https://bikerumor.com/3x3-nine-no-maintenance-internal-gear-hub/

This hub sounds pretty amazing...cept the size of the steps between gears is the largest that I've seen by far. They say it's built for ebikes...
I don't know yet if huge steps is okay.
 
The Madmadscientist said:
maiz said:
https://bikerumor.com/3x3-nine-no-maintenance-internal-gear-hub/

This hub sounds pretty amazing...cept the size of the steps between gears is the largest that I've seen by far. They say it's built for ebikes...
I don't know yet if huge steps is okay.

25% is not bad. It's smaller than the steps in a 3-speed hub, and smaller than some of the wide jumps in 5-speed touring freewheels.

I have a Rohloff hub bike (pedal only), and the 13.6% steps are small enough that I usually shift more than one at a time. Two of those gears in a row represent a 29% step.

Here's the gear chart for a Suntour AG 5-speed freewheel. I have used this on several bikes. You ride it like a single speed, but when you run out of gear you can shift.

Screenshot_20220731-223653.png
 
The Kindernay VII has 28% steps, and it is a non-issue on an eBike.
More I would say it is an advantage, as you do not need as many gears on a eBike, especially high-power ones which this IGH targets with a 250Nm torque rating
 
scrambler said:
The Kindernay VII has 28% steps, and it is a non-issue on an eBike.
More I would say it is an advantage, as you do not need as many gears on a eBike, especially high-power ones which this IGH targets with a 250Nm torque rating

The Kindernay VII is 170nm.
250nm is the not quite ready for prime time NIne hub
 
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