Single-speed track stealth ultralight

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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by eCue » Feb 02, 2018 10:39 pm

I did get about the most affordable packs I could find that were half decent quality lowly Samsung 22p cells. I payed $300 ca. for a 12AH 48v pack and $240 in total for three 36v 4.4ah Samsung hoverboard batteries.
At some point I will pick up a $100 spot welder and the supplies to put a pack together. It would be a opportunity to make some cash building packs for sale once adept at it
Solar charge station on wheels = distance not limited by the wall sockets :D

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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 03, 2018 12:24 am

eCue wrote:
Feb 02, 2018 10:39 pm
At some point I will pick up a $100 spot welder and the supplies to put a pack together. It would be a opportunity to make some cash building packs for sale once adept at it
The BOSS welder is super simple. The first post on the thread about the welder has all the settings you may need for whatever type of strip you're welding in your pack. I had never spot welded a pack before this, and by my 3rd weld I was comfortable with it (don't drink a pot of coffee before you start). All you need to power it is a good 3s high-C battery. It's literally press down on the area and wait for the beep, then move to the next spot. Honestly, soldering-in the BMS and discharge wires was more nerve-wracking than welding the strips in.
I got my nickle strip from Vruzend along with my other stuff and it was super cheap. It's also pure nickle (without having to worry about if it really is as advertised).

Getting back to my build, I heard back from BMSbattery. They hadn't shipped my hub shell (it got overlooked), but they got it processed the same night I emailed them about not getting it yet. While it sucks I got a badly made hub shell in the first place, I've been happy with the response I've gotten from BMSbattery. I've emailed Grin and Luna before with questions and never got a reply back. So BMSbattery has done a much better job in that regard as far as I'm concerned. I'm not bad-mouthing Grin or Luna, they are both great companies with great products, but the customer service is on the weak side.

I have the Phaserunner mounted to my frame and the throttle installed. I'll get some pis of those posted tomorrow.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by eCue » Feb 03, 2018 2:17 am

The bonus is you get the tools and know how to dissemble and re shell a Hub motor. Once inside you might find a few things to tweak like add heavier gauge wire etc
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 07, 2018 6:58 pm

eCue wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 2:17 am
The bonus is you get the tools and know how to dissemble and re shell a Hub motor. Once inside you might find a few things to tweak like add heavier gauge wire etc
Yeah for sure! I know several people here have a few different ways to open these motors up, but it'll definitely be interesting to see what I get as tools/instructions for opening this motor.

I hadn't thought of upgrading the wires... Part of me thinks that's a great idea, but another part knows I'll never make a cable as clean as the one they built it with. It uses a larger version of like a higo connector, so its compact and waterproof. I like it a lot. What I may do though is shorten the wire, basically cut it off and pull it in through the axle so that only about 6 inches is hanging out after the bend back in to the chain stay. I'm never going to run this motor over 20 amps, I may not even push it much over 17, so I'm not sure I'll really need to upgrade the wires.

Oh! I also got the Rosenburger magnetic connector in. This thing is friggin' sweet. The end that will be on the bike is fully potted and the end that will be coming from my pack has a fully molded cable coming from the connector which is long enough to run all teh way into my pack. The magnetic connection is very strong too—it takes a deliberate tug to separate the cable ends. I have zero concerns about this coming unplugged while riding. But if I do something stupid like going to dismount and forgetting to unplug, it'll pop off cleanly without damaging anything or causing me to trip an fall.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by eCue » Feb 07, 2018 9:23 pm

I hear you on upgrading the wires I have no use for that feature either. So far I have tried the 11/22A KT controller restricted to 11 amps it was like eco mode as it would not exceed 30 kph and I doubt it used 11A to cruise at that speed on 54v. Next I tried 14.66A it rocked Im still using it and have not tried any higher max amp settings. At some point I will move it to 22A and do a speed test. So far it seems the speed holds well from 48v to 54v using a 36v rated Motor.

I must get the rosenburger connector. I cheeped out and used xt60's. Although nice to use they are a pain to connect and disconnect every time and the safety is iffy at best :D
So far I have not forgot about being attached but its just a matter of time before I walk off connected. Russian roulette with the 20A power cord :
Solar charge station on wheels = distance not limited by the wall sockets :D

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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 13, 2018 7:00 pm

I got the replacement motor shell today (along with the disassembly tool). I've also gotten the wiring worked out. I ran the battery wires from the seat through the seat tube to keep it as clean as possible. Here's pics:
wiring - 1.jpg
closeup of the Rosenburger connector under the seat
wiring - 1.jpg (75.09 KiB) Viewed 276 times
wiring - 2.jpg
battery cables exiting the seat tube at the BB
wiring - 2.jpg (56.81 KiB) Viewed 276 times
wiring - 3.jpg
battery cables entering the seat tube under the seat
wiring - 3.jpg (59.52 KiB) Viewed 276 times
wiring - 4.jpg
side view of cables entering tube
wiring - 4.jpg (81.21 KiB) Viewed 276 times
wiring - 5.jpg
wide view of the wiring layout in progress
wiring - 5.jpg (70.09 KiB) Viewed 276 times
And because this is just as interesting, here's a bunch of shots of the disassembly tool that BMSBattery sent me to swap the motor shell:
tool - 1.jpg
tool - 1.jpg (97.1 KiB) Viewed 276 times
tool - 2.jpg
tool - 2.jpg (74.34 KiB) Viewed 276 times
tool - 3.jpg
tool - 3.jpg (75.12 KiB) Viewed 276 times
tool - 4.jpg
tool - 4.jpg (94.3 KiB) Viewed 276 times
tool - 5.jpg
tool - 5.jpg (66.97 KiB) Viewed 276 times
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by wturber » Feb 13, 2018 9:05 pm

I'm a fan of the clean look, but I don't think I could bring myself to drill holes into structural frame members in order to get it. Make sure you tidy those holes up with some fine filing and fine sandpaper to reduce the possibility of having created stress risers.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Papa » Feb 13, 2018 11:11 pm

Re: The hub cover removal tool

Interesting. Just a reminder - only remove one or two (2) of the three 5mm screws when mounting the tool to the cover. If you remove all 3 screws, the sprag clutch inside will be free to rotate.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by eCue » Feb 14, 2018 1:23 am

I have a suggestion to finish the holes could use a small aluminum washer hand bent then JB bonded over it for edge reinforcing and as well as smoothing.
Or jb weld a grommet over

It will be kick ass with a fished edge
Solar charge station on wheels = distance not limited by the wall sockets :D

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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by docnjoj » Feb 14, 2018 8:48 am

Do you have a link to that BMS Q100 removal tool? It looks like a great investment.
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Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear Cute 100H going on: Whoops, Cute wheel broke but I fixed it.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 14, 2018 10:13 pm

docnjoj wrote:
Feb 14, 2018 8:48 am
Do you have a link to that BMS Q100 removal tool? It looks like a great investment.
otherDoc
I don't. BMSBattery sent it to me as a courtesy with the replacement motor shell since the one I got with my motor had the spoke holes drilled incorrectly. I haven't seen the tool listed on their website.

When I'm done with the tool, I'll be happy to ship it to whoever needs it, as a loaner. Maybe it can become the ES Q100 community tool, and we all just ship it around to whoever needs it at the time.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 16, 2018 2:16 am

The assembly/build part of this is done. Now I need to program the phaserunner. This is proving confusing and I'm going to follow this post with some details and questions.

In the mean time, here are a few pics of the completed build.
bike-1.jpg
Ain't she a beauty
bike-1.jpg (69.65 KiB) Viewed 177 times
bike-2.jpg
detail of the controller and motor
bike-2.jpg (66.41 KiB) Viewed 177 times
bike-3.jpg
bike in the rack with my other bike
bike-3.jpg (74.38 KiB) Viewed 177 times
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 16, 2018 2:35 am

I hope you guys like the build. Now I have some questions with programming the Phaserunner. First some info about how I'm programming it:
So there are 2 issues I'm having, and I don't want to go any further until I can get some more info.

The first issue is that during the spinning motor test, I am hearing a knocking sound, and I'm not sure why. I know it's not mechanical as I've been spinning the motor forwards and reverse a lot while truing the wheel. I'm wondering if this is related to the second issue.

The second issue is that the Phaserunner completes the spinning motor test, but it reports that there is an error with the hall wires:
Screen Shot 2018-02-16 at 1.51.35 AM.png
Screen Shot 2018-02-16 at 1.51.35 AM.png (27.05 KiB) Viewed 176 times
I'm not sure if this is due to a fault in my wiring, or if its a bug in the Mac version of the software. I'm hoping someone here may have insight into that.

The Mac software works, but it's a bit flaky. For example, when I first launch the Phaserunner Suite, it detects and connects to the controller without issue, then when I launch the autotune helper, the app looses connection to the controller, and I have to cancel the autotune and re-launch it a few times. After a few tries it works and can test the motor. I do have access to a PC in case you guys think it may be the software causing my woes. I can also pull apart the wiring for the hall sensors to make sure there isn't a short somewhere. I'd rather rule out the software before I go tearing apart wiring first though.

Any help you guys may have is super appreciated.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by eCue » Feb 16, 2018 10:32 am

Its common for hall sensors wires to be the wrong pin holes at the connector ends.
I switched two wires of three (not positive /negative) a few times until the motor synced and ran smooth. In my case I had to switch phase wires around as well. White was the speed sensor for some its the self learn
Solar charge station on wheels = distance not limited by the wall sockets :D

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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by java230 » Feb 16, 2018 10:48 am

Sorry I can't help with the Phaserunner, but man that is clean and stealth! Nicely done.

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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 16, 2018 11:32 am

eCue wrote:
Feb 16, 2018 10:32 am
Its common for hall sensors wires to be the wrong pin holes at the connector ends.
I switched two wires of three (not positive /negative) a few times until the motor synced and ran smooth. In my case I had to switch phase wires around as well. White was the speed sensor for some its the self learn
My first thought was that the halls didn't match up, but I thought the phaserunner could figure out what the wiring order was automagicly.

From the manual:
Next up, you will launch the spinning motor test, which will cause the motor to rotate at about half speed for 15 seconds. During this spinning test, the controller will determine the exact kV winding constant for the hub and also the pinout and timing advance of the hall sensors if they are present.
Is that wrong? If so I can get back in the wiring and figure out what's what.
Last edited by zro-1 on Feb 16, 2018 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 16, 2018 11:33 am

java230 wrote:
Feb 16, 2018 10:48 am
Sorry I can't help with the Phaserunner, but man that is clean and stealth! Nicely done.
Thank you very much. I'm real happy with the build. Now I just need to get it actually running :wink:
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by eCue » Feb 16, 2018 11:49 am

I only have experience with my hub and controller> Try resetting and running threw the cycle from the beginning. Hopefully someone chimes in this morning with phase runner knowledge so you can get this up and running. I would wait for that advice befor switching wires :)
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 16, 2018 11:53 am

eCue wrote:
Feb 16, 2018 11:49 am
I only have experience with my hub and controller> Try resetting and running threw the cycle from the beginning. Hopefully someone chimes in this morning with phase runner knowledge so you can get this up and running. I would wait for that advice befor switching wires :)
Yeah, I reset the settings in the app before I disconnected from the controller last night. I agree with you and will wait a bit in the hopes I can get some more info from someone. I think I'll also try loading the Phaserunner Suite app on the PC to see if that's any better than the Mac version. Thanks for your help eCue, I appreciate it.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by eCue » Feb 16, 2018 2:00 pm

This thread has screenshots of the phaserunner software with a different motor

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... haserunner
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 17, 2018 1:45 pm

I think I have this figured out now. The pole pairs were wrong. Maybe the original Q100 had 65 pole pairs back in the day, but that doesn't align with what I was seeing for the Q100H.

On BMSBattery's website, they say the Q100H has a 12.6:1 ratio (100 effective pole pairs), which I figured applied to the 201 RPM motor, and on Papa'a autopsy thread he calculated a ratio of 8.1:1 (65 effective pole pairs) for his 328 RPM motor. Since my motor's RPM is between the two (260 vs 201 or 328) I took a guess and decided the ratio was 9:1. Since all the motors have the same 8 pole pairs, that gave me 72 pole pairs instead of the 65 that had been reported in the Phaserunner thread.

The motor is able to spin up cleanly without issues or faults with the 72 pole pairs set. The resulting Kv reported after the autotune was 7.19 RPM/V. This lines up pretty well with the supposed Kv if I take the specs from BMSBattery (260 RPM / 36 V), which is 7.2 RPM/V. So I think I have a good guess here.

I'm still getting an error relating to my hall wires, so I'm going to check the wiring and my splices and make sure I didn't screw anything up. After I check the hall wires, I'll try the autotune one more time and see if I can get those halls working without error. Since it's pretty easy to open this motor, I may also just pop the side plate off and count the gear teeth to know for sure what the reduction ratio is so I can be certain that I've set the correct number of pole pairs. I really want to get that part right so I don't damage anything.

I'll report back soon with the results.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by amberwolf » Feb 17, 2018 2:20 pm

There might also be noise in the hall wires induced by the phase wires. Sometimes adding a small capacitor (0.1uf or less) in parallel with each one to ground cna help with that. Or adding one from teh hall power to hall ground, if the noise is in hte power line.

Anotehr thread recently reproted diodes in series with the hall wires fixed an issue with a different controller and motor. I don't recall the thread title, but searching for
diode* hall*
should find it.

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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 17, 2018 5:08 pm

I posted this on another thread, but I'm including it here for easier reference:
I popped the side cover off of my 260 RPM Q100H and counted the gear teeth. I couldn't get the planet gear carrier screws loose. I don't have an impact driver, and when I used a screwdriver bit in a socket wrench it felt like the screw head was going to strip before I could break it loose, so I couldn't count the sun gear. I was able to count the 1st and 2nd stage planet gears along with the ring gear though. Interestingly, they are the same as Papa's 328 RPM motor.

Sun: (assumed) 15 tooth
1st stage planet: 36 tooth
2nd stage planet: 23 tooth
Ring: 78 tooth

Sun to 1st stage planet ratio: 36÷15 = 2.4 (not needed for final ratio calculation)
1st stage planet to 2nd stage planet: 23÷36 = 0.64 (overdrive, need to multiply sun tooth count by this)
Small planet to ring gear: 78÷23 = 3.39 (not needed for final ratio calculation)

Since the planet carrier is fixed (it's part of the axle) the formula to calculate the ratio is simply ring÷sun, but since this is a multi-stage planetary, you need to multiply the sun gear by the overdrive ratio.

Sun times overdrive: 15x0.64 = 9.6 tooth
Overdriven sun to ring gear: 78÷9.6 = 8.125

So the final ratio of the reduction is 8.125:1.

Here's where things get really strange. What this tells me is that either:
  1. The wheel RPM (201 vs 260 vs 328) is determined by the motor winding and not by the gear ratio, or
  2. I received a 328 RPM motor, even though I ordered a 260 RPM
This is going to get even more weird. On BMSbattery's website, the Q100H is only available as 201 RPM, or 260 RPM and the Q100 is only available as 201 RPM or 328 RPM. The Q100H says it has a 12.1:1 reduction ratio, and the Q100 says it has an 8.2:1 reduction ratio. Soooo, what the heck is going on here? How is Papa's motor 328 RPM if it's a Q100H, and how is my supposed 260 RPM motor geared the same as his? And how are both of these motors only 8.2:1 when the Q100H is supposed to be 12.1:1?
What's really funny, if you've read my previous post, is that this ratio make the number of pole pairs 65, just like was in the Phaserunner thread. LOL I guess whatever was causing my trouble before is either related to the software, or the faulty hall wires. We'll see soon.
Last edited by zro-1 on Feb 17, 2018 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 17, 2018 5:15 pm

amberwolf wrote:
Feb 17, 2018 2:20 pm
There might also be noise in the hall wires induced by the phase wires. Sometimes adding a small capacitor (0.1uf or less) in parallel with each one to ground cna help with that. Or adding one from teh hall power to hall ground, if the noise is in hte power line.

Anotehr thread recently reproted diodes in series with the hall wires fixed an issue with a different controller and motor. I don't recall the thread title, but searching for
diode* hall*
should find it.
Thanks Amberwolf, I think I found the issue (hopefully), but I'll keep that advice for if I am mistaken.

I had used liquid tape to seal the hall wires where I cut/joined them since I didn't have any shrink-tube small enough for them. I opened my wiring bundle, and it looks like I may have wrapped everything up before the liquid tape had fully cured and hardened. It looked like some of the liquid tape was still moist, and I could see some spots where it looked like the wires had mushed almost out of the liquid tape coating. My hope is that this caused the signals to either short or "bleed" into each other causing the fault I was seeing.
I've re-coated the wires with a thick application of more liquid tape, and I'm going to give them a full 6 hours to fully dry before I wrap them back up.
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Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 17, 2018 8:29 pm

RollerBoy wrote:
Jan 30, 2018 9:40 pm
What part of Atlanta?
Hey RollerBoy, I totally missed your question—sorry about that! I'm in EAV and work over near midtown, my company's office is in Ponce City Market.

(Total side note: I wish there was a way to @mention someone like in Twitter or Slack... I hope RollerBoy sees this.)
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