Xtracycle Build Log

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Dec 19 2020 9:22pm

I actually do have one. That's how I'm determining watt hours used. It's like 9 years old and still ticking.!
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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amberwolf   100 GW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by amberwolf » Dec 20 2020 11:40pm

neptronix wrote:
Dec 19 2020 4:33pm
A turnigy watt meter ( ~$25 ) is a nice ghetto alternative to a cycle analyst.
Not for this purpose--it can't modify the throttle signal based on settings to "alter" (reduce) the current limit of a controller.

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Feb 22 2021 12:10am

OK, so a little update on what's been done recently:

-New custom sewn "freeloader" bags installed.
-Front and rear derailleur installed, functions ok.
-Rear freewheel Had to be spaced out from the hub motor a bit to allow it to shift into lowest gear
-Front BB7 caliper installed (got a used version, no torx bit on the inside adjustment, I highly recommend getting the newer versions)
-New handlebar & grips are in
-New rear tire (one that came with the hub-motor/wheel had a significant crooked section in it, whole bike fishtailed every rotation)

To-dos:

-Make running boards for the xtracycle frame (kids need a place to put feet that isn't my panniers)
-Mount rear BB7 brake
-Tune the BB7 brake up front, feels like it's under-performing
-New seat
-Better position the computer
-Splice in the plug to the old throttle into the new one (going from half-twist to thumb)
-New pedals
-Make a chain idler system similar to this
-Re-mount the hailong battery with a reinforced plate similar to Justin's triple-bob plate
-Relocate controller and clean-up wiring
-Get no-load max rpm value, run grin simulator to determine where my efficiency should be
-Mount headlight
-Finish mounting rear fender

Issues:
-Chain can fall off the largest sprocket on the freewheel
-Front brake under-performing
-Spokes on rear wheel likely need re-tensioned

-Budget update:
Purchased:
-$15 frame
-$62 fork
-$140 free radical
-$20 xtracycle wood deck
-$80 rear 1000W motor kit 26"
-$40 paint job
-$23 disc brakes kit
-$35 Headset
-$24 bottom bracket
-$12 grips
-$75 front wheel
-$7 front derailleur
-$25 rear derailleur (old one was shot)
-$65 avid BB7 calipers
-$418 52v hailong style battery with samsung cells, ebay (seller: cowellcowinbattery ... relatively new, they had a small mess up that cost me some time, but they made it right (sent wrong battery by mistake)
-$0 Custom pannier bags (thanks mom!)
-$55 New rear tire, Schwalbe marathon plus

TOTAL: $1096 all-in so far. I might be missing cable ends, housing, and the sort... but really that totals about $20 or so.

NOW, photos:
20210220_154752.jpg
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TGB 2.jpg
TGB 2.jpg (257.2 KiB) Viewed 296 times
As an aside: These old-ass BB7s do not have the torx fastener that you can adjust with a t-wrench... ANNOYING.
bb7 inner.JPG
bb7 inner.JPG (134.3 KiB) Viewed 296 times
That is all for now. It's finally coming together!

OH- and my daughter tentatively titled the projec "The Green Bean" ... I think it's going to stick! :lol:
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Mar 05 2021 1:11pm

Progress:
-Tuned the BB7 brake up front, feels like it's under-performing
-Spliced in the plug from the old throttle into the new one (going from half-twist to thumb)-->not so happy with this one.
-New seat ordered
-New pedals ordered
-Finished mounting rear fender, mostly.
-Got no-load speed of 70kph, need to do the calc for circumference, but that's tire/wheel dependent. I need to do a GPS run and compare it to the computer's value, that should get me a correction factor that's fairly accurate. Either that or get an RPM-meter ...
-Re-mounted the hailong battery with a reinforced plate similar to Justin's triple-bob plate
hailong brkt.JPG
hailong brkt.JPG (45.21 KiB) Viewed 257 times
To-DO:
-Make running boards for the xtracycle frame (kids need a place to put feet that isn't my panniers)
-Mount rear BB7 brake
-Better position the computer

-Make a chain idler system similar to this
-Relocate controller and clean-up wiring
-Mount headlight

Made progress on the to-do list with an item that was not on it: Make a new front attachment plate, or FAP.
AttachmentPlate_web.jpg
AttachmentPlate_web.jpg (9.95 KiB) Viewed 262 times
This is the part I'm copying, because it's either too expensive or to hard to get a hold of one. So I at first made a delrin one with my table-saw:
FMP Delrin.jpg
FMP Delrin.jpg (183.03 KiB) Viewed 262 times
It was plastically-deforming (yes, that's a pun), so it was time to upgrade to a new one. I got a non-ferrous metals blade for my saw some time back, and decided it was time to give it a go:
FAP Alum & Delrin.jpg
FAP Alum & Delrin.jpg (220.63 KiB) Viewed 262 times
It works fairly well, and enables someone with an average shop tool to do some basic machining. A bit of filing after and it's pretty much done. I want to take out some weight by cutting a profile as below, then will probably powder coat it.
FAP cutout.JPG
FAP cutout.JPG (109.37 KiB) Viewed 262 times
I also wound up finding a score on some "Footsies" for my kids to put their feet on for $15!
footsies.jpg
footsies.jpg (11.87 KiB) Viewed 262 times
Up next is to:
-Put on brand new BB7s, I kind of hate the old ones.
-New seat
...everything else on that last list :lol:
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Apr 03 2021 2:56am

amberwolf wrote:
Dec 19 2020 2:05am
You don't really need to know the specific winding...

Once you know the unloaded RPM, you can guesstimate the loaded RPM as around 80% of that...

But with the RPM you can try to match a similar motor on the simulator to use as a stand in for yours when experimenting with the simulator to find a more optimal setup.
I got the no load RPM and voltage/current, which came out to 10.00KV on the nose. Running a custom motor with similar KV and the default winding resistance, I'm getting a simulator value of 27wh/mi at 75% throttle 52v. Right now I'm getting 40+, so something seems wacky. I have a hunch it's this craptastic controller, which is only good to 13A. I can get to 30mph, but only just. Once i get the new brakes on I'll give it a try for another efficiency measurement. Then I'll maybe have a good idea of what this system is capable of.
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Apr 26 2021 4:04pm

I am having a pretty severe concentricity issue with the rear hub-motor-wheel and its tire. This problem was present on the previous cheap tire that came with the wheel motor kit, so I think that's some evidence ruling out tire manufacture error to a reasonable degree.

Any input would be helpful. I took the tire off the rim and inspected the inside for possible manufacturing defects on the rim, but didn't spot any. I will take another look at it as soon as I can, as I feel I might've missed something. External dimensions on the rim are pretty consistent (rim braking surface-to-surface) when measured with a caliper.

Here's a video of the issue:
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Apr 26 2021 4:10pm

After a little hunting, I found this page. It details what to do if the bead is sitting too low, so I'll try some extra high tire pressure when I get home. I've ridden on it for miles with the offset and it hadn't self-corrected, so I was sure there was some sort of manufacturing defect with the rim bead surface.
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Apr 27 2021 8:55am

Welp, I tried soaking the Schwalbe tire in soap and going clear to 70psi, massaging it as it inflated, and multiple inflations, but i could not get that tire to seat.

I tried the cheap tire that came with the kit again using the same techniques, aaaaand now i have a fully seated tire. Huh. What the hell Schwalbe?

I have to try to return it now... where's that damn receipt... :pancake:
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » May 03 2021 1:09pm

I managed to snap the old tire into place properly for now. I will make another attempt at the Schwalbe this week and see if I can get it to go. My spokes still need re-tensioning I believe, so I'll be putting it back on the table for that soon.

Other than that, the little 4 bob support plate I 3d-printed seems to do really well at holding the hailong battery on. Right now it's only in place with the two bottle cage screws, but I have an updated version I still need to print (out of a less heat-sensitive plastic than PLA) that will allow for hose-clamps to go over it.

I'm finding the chainrings I have up front are far too small for my pedaling cadence to keep up at 45kph! I'll need to get some bigger chainrings up front, but that's not a huge issue.

The throttle I bought has issues, namely a very narrow range of input. I'm either too slow or full bore. Hard to get any throttle values in between. If anyone knows of a source for a good high-quality no-LED thumb throttle, I'd love to see it.

I also need to install a switch for activating the PAS. You'd think it would be smart to include a button-driven function on the controller LCD display to turn that on and off, but as it is if it's plugged in PAS is on, which is annoying. It's not like you can turn the assist level to 0 and just use the throttle either, as 0 turns off the throttle as well! That's all for now I believe... need to get a headlight system in place and re-adjust brakes/derailleurs a little but that's about it. This one's almost done!

Controller re-positioned into the free radical attachment arm. Not sure if this is permanent yet... probably will do a cover and mounting plate of some sort.
TGB Controller mount.jpg
TGB Controller mount.jpg (198.2 KiB) Viewed 102 times
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

99t4   100 W

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by 99t4 » May 03 2021 9:12pm

dequinox wrote:
May 03 2021 1:09pm
The throttle I bought has issues, namely a very narrow range of input. I'm either too slow or full bore. Hard to get any throttle values in between.
Is your controller programmable? You may be able to dial in the throttle or otherwise better tune the controller's reaction to it.

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by Chalo » May 04 2021 1:31am

dequinox wrote:
May 03 2021 1:09pm
The throttle I bought has issues, namely a very narrow range of input. I'm either too slow or full bore. Hard to get any throttle values in between.
Are you using the Wuxing 130X throttle?

Image

If so, it's pretty abrupt and insensitive. I've gotten much better feel and definition from the Wuxing 108X paddle type throttle:

Image

Note that the 130X can be used on the left or right, but you have to get the 108X in one version or the other.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » May 04 2021 12:06pm

Sadly it's not. Just a cheapo brushless, nothing special about it. At least I don't think so...

The throttle didn't become a problem until I switched to the Wuxing 130 Chalo mentions above.
99t4 wrote:
May 03 2021 9:12pm
dequinox wrote:
May 03 2021 1:09pm
The throttle I bought has issues, namely a very narrow range of input. I'm either too slow or full bore. Hard to get any throttle values in between.
Is your controller programmable? You may be able to dial in the throttle or otherwise better tune the controller's reaction to it.
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » May 04 2021 12:07pm

Thanks for the suggestion! Yes, the problem with the 130x (which I didn't know that was until you mentioned it) is that it's dead, then abrupt near the full throttle. I'll give that other model a try.
Chalo wrote:
May 04 2021 1:31am
I've gotten much better feel and definition from the Wuxing 108X paddle type throttle:
Note that the 130X can be used on the left or right, but you have to get the 108X in one version or the other.
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » May 05 2021 2:12pm

Purchased a new throttle, the 108X, which should show up later this week.

I'm noticing that I get about 30% higher energy consumption than my RBF Cruiser with this bike. My cruiser gets around 30 Whr/mi, whereas this one gets about 42 Whr/mi with similar weight and throttle aggressiveness. I notice significantly higher spinning resistance (push wheel with a finger and see how long it takes to stop) than my RBF Cruiser as well... what causes might this point to?
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by Chalo » May 07 2021 9:50am

dequinox wrote:
May 05 2021 2:12pm
I notice significantly higher spinning resistance (push wheel with a finger and see how long it takes to stop) than my RBF Cruiser as well... what causes might this point to?
Too-tight axle bearings, or a dragging brake pad. In neither case would it make a difference in Wh/mi efficiency, but in both cases it would dramatically increase wear of the affected component.

30% difference in efficiency between your two bikes probably indicates one of two things: either a major difference in aerodynamic qualities (mainly riding position), or a difference in average speed. Motor efficiency and mechanical losses might differ, but not by nearly that large a margin.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » May 07 2021 10:18am

Chalo wrote:
May 07 2021 9:50am
Too-tight axle bearings, or a dragging brake pad. In neither case would it make a difference in Wh/mi efficiency, but in both cases it would dramatically increase wear of the affected component.

30% difference in efficiency between your two bikes probably indicates one of two things: either a major difference in aerodynamic qualities (mainly riding position), or a difference in average speed. Motor efficiency and mechanical losses might differ, but not by nearly that large a margin.
[/quote]

I'm not entirely sure it's aero, as I tuck when I go over 25 on both vehicles. Both have similar top speeds, though slightly different acceleration feel. I kind of attributed the latter to the front vs rear wheel difference. It really does feel as if there's drag of some sort on the rear... so I'm thinking bearing. I've ruled out the disc rubbing already through inspection. I'm leaning toward a screwy bearing or some sort of shenanigans with the rear axle/motor.
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by Chalo » May 07 2021 10:24am

dequinox wrote:
May 07 2021 10:18am
Chalo wrote:
May 07 2021 9:50am
30% difference in efficiency between your two bikes probably indicates one of two things: either a major difference in aerodynamic qualities (mainly riding position), or a difference in average speed.
I'm not entirely sure it's aero, as I tuck when I go over 25 on both vehicles.
Note that moving through air at 28.5 uses 30% more power than it does at 25. It could be as simple as that.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » May 07 2021 10:26am

Chalo wrote:
May 07 2021 10:24am
Note that moving through air at 28.5 uses 30% more power than it does at 25. It could be as simple as that.
That's true, however I do ride at nearly 30 on both vehicles :lol:
I do need to verify the weight too though, the xtracycle is all steel and my cruiser is aluminum.
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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