Xtracycle Build Log

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dequinox   10 kW

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Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Jul 31 2019 12:08am

I acquired a giant frame a while back (probably over 2 years ago, $15), with the intent of incorporating it into some sort of cargo-bike build. It's steel or chromo, and is rather large (maybe 20" seat tube).

Well today I spotted this little gem:
Image

So I went, I saw, I haggled down to $140 (the bag is wrecked...let's face it). Now it hangs from my shop ceiling alongside the frame:
Image

Now, what to do with it...

Option 1: I have a 1000W rear ebay/amazon kit I got used for $80.00, so there's that.
Option 2: Attempt to salvage parts from the HI-V (my first build) and cobble together a freewheeling crank mid-drive.
Option 3: Legit stokemonkey, or stokemonkey-see, stokemonkey-do copycat setup.

I'm open to opinions, and I know a few of the pros/cons of each option. For example stokemonkey means you have to pedal, there's not a freewheeling option as I understand it. The hub motor will lack torque enough to clear some of our nastier hills around Eugene. The salvage operation is going to mean a lot of custom work... and will probably creep in cost.

With any of the above options, I'll be stripping the paint off both and giving them a unified color scheme, which I haven't figured out completely yet. Powder coating for sure, since I'm lucky enough to have the access.

Now I need to decide on a fork also... I can cobble together the rest of the parts easily enough, but this frame has a particularly long head tube. I have a 700C fork, but would need to splice it with an extender and weld it. I've also considered that a suspension fork of semi-decent quality would be ideal... and 26" wheels would be best for now since I'm going V-brake until I upgrade to discs.

Thoughts???
Last edited by dequinox on Aug 08 2019 9:33am, edited 2 times in total.
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Giant Xtracycle Build Log (Stokemonk-ish?)

Post by dequinox » Aug 05 2019 12:34pm

OK next issue. Steer-tube size and headset selection:

I have a 7in dimension from top bearing race to the bottom. The ID of the frame head tube is about 1.3", give or take about .030".
How do I tell what steer tube diameter to use? It seems to me this would technically fit a 1 1/8" steer tube, but I'm not sure to tell whether these existing pressed races will accept a 1 1/8 sized tube. I'm considering just buying a fork like this.

Image
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

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Re: Giant Frame w/ Xtracycle Build Log

Post by Drunkskunk » Aug 05 2019 5:53pm

Looks like a potentially cool build.

The headset should be for a 1 1/8th. The outside of the press fit part of the bearing cup/inside of the head tube should measure 34mm, 1.34".
If it was for a 1" fork size, it would be 30.2mm, 1.19"
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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Giant Frame w/ Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Aug 05 2019 10:14pm

Thank you, now that's helpful. I was trying to do some reading on it, kept getting distracted by... You know... Work. 😁
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Aug 08 2019 11:38am

Last night I cobbled together the frame and freeradical (FR from now on), just to get a feel for the size of it. It's a '92 Giant Sedona frame, the free radical (FR), and I'll be robbing components off my first build from 2009. The fork was close, but the steer tube was not long enough. Beyond that, I'll be doing thrifty shopping on ebay and at our non-profit LBS, the C.A.T. in Eugene, OR.

Image

I'll be ordering a fork off ebay soon. I may have found a good match, a Surly 700C fork with a disc brake mount. I do want to go disc on this build just for the sheer weight of a cargo rig, let alone the ebike components.

I'll be stripping the frame like I said earlier, and going with a close to army green and black motif for the color. Kind of like the motorcycle below:
Image

More to come. I'm trying to solve a "color problem" on my other build, the Giant Simple Cruiser, before putting any significant effort into this one.
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
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Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Aug 13 2019 9:50am

Ok I'm up a fork, and it's on the way. I found one on ebay, and managed $62 for it. I am sure there may have been cheaper options, but I'm ok with it since it has the disc bosses and a fairly long steer tube. Hopefully it's a good fit for this build.
I'll re-coat it green along with the rest of the frame.

Image

So far we have:
-$15 frame
-$62 fork
-$140 free radical
-$20 xtracycle wood deck
-$80 rear 1000W motor kit 26"
-Salvaged: Handlebars, maybe gooseneck, front wheel & tire (700c, I'll see how it works with the rear 26" kit), rear tire, seat & post, head set (including bearing races, I need to change the ones on the frame to thread-less).

$317 into it so far.

I'm going to have a family member help with custom panniers to copy the original xtracycle freeloaders to an extent.
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Aug 20 2019 10:10am

Got my fork in, and the dropouts are a little strange, but I think this is on purpose:
Image

Pieced it together for a gander at the overall look:
Image

Noticed the xtracycle dropouts are a little tight for this hub motor, but I think I can stretch the frame a little. The chain would have a hard time up against the frame like this. I'll probably need spacers or something. Also there is a weld repair I hadn't seen when I bought it, just to the right of that boss if you look close:
Image

The disc brake side looks ok. I don't think there will be any issues there.
Image

I ordered a 160 mm Rujoi mechanical disc brake set from amazon. I've never used disc brakes before, so we'll see if these are adequate. Keep in mind that is all I'm shooting for here is "adequate". I'm not looking to build the heaviest hauler, or the fastest, or best riding etc etc... just adequate and decent looking. I'll be doing the slightly-more-forest-green olive drab frame components with matte black components/accessories.
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Aug 29 2019 12:48pm

I received some disc brakes from Amazon yesterday, and they arrived slightly broken, so I'll have to return and get a new set. However things are moving along nicely... I way over-paid for a set of t-nuts and bolts to attach the free radical to the bike frame ($27 with shipping... holy ****).
Image

I've made a tool to change out the bearing races to a thread-less set by watching a bike maintenance video or two. I'm going to steal the headset off my first build's frame and put it on this one.
Image

No further updates really. This will be a kinda slow project.
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Sep 05 2019 11:07pm

Well the replacement set of disc brakes showed up with chips in it's adjustment wheel too. I'm just going to live with it for now and leave a bad, but accurate, review once I've felt how they work.

I managed to score another 26" front kit with a tired old lifepo4 battery locally for $50, and some built but never used 18650 cells for $25. That will be for some other project though, like my wife's cruiser, for which I've been meaning to build a battery for 2 years!

Stripping down the frames of parts tonight and will haul them in for sandblasting either tomorrow or early next week. I've settled on a liquid paint that we use at my place of employ, just need to get someone to paint it for me as my spray skills i do not trust...
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by amberwolf » Sep 05 2019 11:23pm

dequinox wrote:
Sep 05 2019 11:07pm
Well the replacement set of disc brakes showed up with chips in it's adjustment wheel too.
Are the "chips" identical to the first one?

If so, it is likely they are actually defects in the mold, when they copied the adjustment wheel of whichever brand they attempted to counterfeit/clone (looks sorta like the Avid BB series).

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Sep 06 2019 12:23am

Essentially yes, but there's fewer of them. I might try to mix and match to get a good set then send back the crap. I haven't returned the original to an Amazon drop site yet. :mrgreen:
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Jan 22 2020 5:40pm

So I've got most of this frame stripped down and blasted, getting ready to paint it.

On another note, I'm developing a couple different 3d-printable 18650 cell holders. Just for fun, here's a preview. I didn't want to start a whole new thread on it until I've done some testing.

The first is for arranging "doubles", that is cells that are already welded in pairs. It has a lid and bottom with some head room for wiring, fuses, or whatever:
18650 8P Doubles Pack.JPG
18650 8P Doubles Pack.JPG (89.12 KiB) Viewed 3062 times
The second I'm a little more excited about. It's a modular pack similar to N.E.S.E., but without the need for proprietary parts. It's still under development, and could be optimized a bit:
NHC 18650 Module.JPG
NHC 18650 Module.JPG (84.85 KiB) Viewed 3062 times
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by goatman » Jan 22 2020 11:36pm

im still learning about batteries, your p group has 1 positive connector/tab on the left side, the bus bar I guess.
would the amps being pulled to the left degrade the most left cell of the p group quicker than the most right cell of the p group, I don't know the answer, im curious. or is that just a tab for the bms?

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Jan 22 2020 11:50pm

This design allows for the "bus bar" to stick out both ends, and allows nickel strip of varying thicknesses if someone wanted to do higher amp discharging. I don't have any data on what the discharge capacity of this design is yet... I just began printing the first one tonight. You can see it in progress here:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uBpoiRwxLG81HKK36

There's no physics-based reason I'm aware of that one cell would be "worn down" from being on the end though. Current flow just doesn't work quite like that to my knowledge. Maybe one of the electrical engineers on here could correct me if I screwed up on that statement: :kff:
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Mar 20 2020 8:37am

Fiiiinally got my frame and free radical painted. The frame is painted an olive drab with a touch of forest green in it. I've powder coated the free radical and fork black texture. Came out quite nice. I'll have to post the photo later today, as i cannot seem to get my phone to downsize the pic enough to upload it here.

In the meantime, a Google photos link:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/LT2BwUnodNVLGq9i7
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Mar 25 2020 11:35am

Ok, I managed to put together the painted bike frame and Xtracycle sub-frame... I'm liking the look so far! I'm waiting on a headset and a bottom bracket to come in, then I'll put the fork and crank on.
Painted xtracycle.JPG
Painted xtracycle.JPG (137.17 KiB) Viewed 2246 times
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Apr 06 2020 4:13pm

Managed to get the bottom bracket and headset in. Need new handlebars (this set has a misguided hole placed in it), and then it's on to wheels and brakes.

Updated expenses:

New:
-$15 frame
-$62 fork
-$140 free radical
-$20 xtracycle wood deck
-$80 rear 1000W motor kit 26"
-$40 paint job
-$23 disc brakes
-$35 Headset
-$24 bottom bracket
-$12 grips
TOTAL: $451 (holy cow... funny how quickly it mounts)

Salvaged:
-Goose-neck
-Handlebars?
-Front wheel & tire (700c)
-Seat & post
-Crankset
-Derailers & shifter (maybe)
packcycle.JPG
packcycle.JPG (250.08 KiB) Viewed 2103 times
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
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Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Apr 07 2020 11:02am

Another quick update:

-Looks like painting a sub-frame doesn't make a problem go away. I need to figure out how to make room for the last sprocket on the rear cassette, or remove it. The chain will rub, I determined.
KIMG0191.jpg
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KIMG0194.jpg
KIMG0194.jpg (378.03 KiB) Viewed 2091 times
I also realized I don't have a front wheel with a disc-brake hub. :roll: Reading back through I'm sure I'd find I've identified this once already as with the above problem. Overall I'm liking the look so far though.
KIMG0197.jpg
KIMG0197.jpg (316.77 KiB) Viewed 2091 times
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
HI-V (Retired); Sun Cruiser w/ Hill Topper Kit; Giant Simple Cruiser w/ Amazon 1000W Front Hub.
Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by goatman » Apr 09 2020 2:07am

dequinox wrote:
Jan 22 2020 11:50pm
This design allows for the "bus bar" to stick out both ends, and allows nickel strip of varying thicknesses if someone wanted to do higher amp discharging. I don't have any data on what the discharge capacity of this design is yet... I just began printing the first one tonight. You can see it in progress here:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uBpoiRwxLG81HKK36

There's no physics-based reason I'm aware of that one cell would be "worn down" from being on the end though. Current flow just doesn't work quite like that to my knowledge. Maybe one of the electrical engineers on here could correct me if I screwed up on that statement: :kff:
yes. just looking at the NESE cell holders it looks wrong to me compared to how most packs serial connections are made. i guess the easiest way to check would be to load test the 8p group and take the temperature of cell 1p and cell 8p to see if the temperatures are the same?

Agnesium? said NESE did all the tests using nickel plated copper.

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by john61ct » Apr 10 2020 2:00am

Yes with a paralleled set of **batteries**, the positive terminal must be on the opposite end from the negative, not both connecting via the same one.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html

However with a 1S group of single cells, cannot see why it would be an issue?

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by 2old » Apr 10 2020 9:59am

One option for the cassette problem would be to add a spacer which spreads the rear only a couple of mm (one each side to maintain symmetry)? I've done that "successfully".

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by agniusm » Apr 11 2020 8:36am

goatman wrote:
Apr 09 2020 2:07am

yes. just looking at the NESE cell holders it looks wrong to me compared to how most packs serial connections are made. i guess the easiest way to check would be to load test the 8p group and take the temperature of cell 1p and cell 8p to see if the temperatures are the same?

Agnesium? said NESE did all the tests using nickel plated copper.
Looking wrong is not the same as being wrong. My system adds 1.0 ± 0.5mOhms to 6P module. Cells them selves have larger internal resistance than this and this is why its not wrong but works very good.
Let me remind you that all spotwelded packs not only have various magnitude damage incurred by the process but also nickel which is smaller gauge but also x5 times less conductive. I wont do math now but my 8th cell will be orders of magnitude better that first cell on welded pack ;)
BTW in 3 years i had none of my customers complaining, quiet opposite, they come back and buy more :)

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dequinox   10 kW

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by dequinox » Apr 13 2020 11:56am

2old wrote:
Apr 10 2020 9:59am
I've done that "successfully".
:lol: ..."successfully" Thanks for the input, I used a pair of old-school woodworking clamps like this to stretch it:
Image
agniusm wrote:
Apr 11 2020 8:36am
Looking wrong is not the same as being wrong. ... BTW in 3 years i had none of my customers complaining, quiet opposite, they come back and buy more :)
Agniusm I was thoroughly impressed at your design and the efficacy of it. I'm sure it works quite well! The sticking point for me was the specialized conductors that you sell. I'm sure many people are willing to pay for a nice system like yours, but I'm a shameless thief when it comes to DIYing a design idea. If I think I can do something myself I really want to give it a try before shelling out a lot of money to purchase it. I'm not planning on copying your design or anything, but wanted to take a stab at something similar and see where I land. Your design was inspiring to me!
On a dusty pew in a vestibule sits the Devil playing pocket pool, he's waiting for the next poor fool who forgot that it was Sunday

STABLE:
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Parts donated by Rassy and Greenerwheels have made many of my builds possible, THANK YOU!!!

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by agniusm » Apr 15 2020 6:09am

Its possible to diy but its fiddly and will end up expensive. I did my first ones diy and it was complicated. Maybe cause i needed precision. There is one good post on electric skateboatd forums that i would like to share:

"So this tagline “The False Economy” is from one of the true Original Gangsters in the DIY and Electric Skateboard industry, founder of the esk8 builders forum, Jason Potter (@Onloop on esk8.builders). I am going to give my take on it. Be sure to check out his thread on the subject (link at bottom). It is full of insight from an industry insider.

It seems there are 2 main reasons people turn to DIY. The first is for performance. They typically have a production board (not always) and have outgrown its capabilities. They want more speed, more range, more torque, better aesthetics, etc etc. The other reason people turn to DIY is cost savings. They think that they will be able to save some coin by building their own instead of spending the money on a prebuilt.

In my opinion, one of these reasons is valid and one is not. If you are looking for performance, then drive on! If you are just looking to save a few bucks by building your own board… I hate to say it, but it probably just won’t happen. Not to say that this is always the case, but more often than not, it is. The amount of time and necessary tools alone precludes many from actually seeing cost savings in going the DIY route. By the time you get all of the necessary tools and small unaccounted for parts, a build is typically pretty damn expensive. Even cheaper builds. Of course, this isn’t always the case, maybe you are an esteemed DIYer in your own right in some other facet and already have the tools and the know-how in order to do this well and save some money. This is seldom the case.

Often if you are spending less than a grand, there is a prebuilt out there that just might be a better option.

This is merely to warn you that if you come here thinking that you are going to save all sorts of money by building a board yourself, it really just isn’t true, and you are getting into DIY for the wrong reasons.

If performance is what you are after and that is why you are here, you are more along the right mindset. DIY is often MUCH MORE expensive than pre-builts, but you have the opportunity to customize. Want a light speed demon but don’t need much range? Go for it! Need 35 miles of range but don’t want to kill yourself and stick to sub 22mph? DO IT!. Want a board that looks exactly the way you want? Have a deck you just love? You can get creative and the world is your oyster… Just realize, shit ain’t gonna be cheap!

Are you one of those Riders and don’t want to get into the building side? Never Fear! There are many extremely talented builders around the forum that can give you all this. They can build your dream board with the range, speed, and looks that you are after."

Its always cheaper buying battery from China than building it yourself, but when you build it yourself, you know what you put in it. Nothing to do with what i sell more in general

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Re: Xtracycle Build Log

Post by john61ct » Apr 15 2020 12:40pm

And the third reason:

because you enjoy tinkering, a fun way to pass time even if no "productive" result

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