Another full suspension build

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methods   100 GW

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 25 2020 10:19am

Of course I saved my bag of genuine Dean's connectors for 7 years. . . then through the mountain nine months ago claiming I would never use them :roll:

These batteries are terminated in counterfeit deans. The cars terminated in a different counterfeit Dean's. Of course they don't go together well.

my testing back in the 2000s show that the genuine deans, terminated inro the properly gauged wire, ran to spec every time.

The counterfeit cables melt if you push them too hard.

...

That brings us into connector standards*

....

I'm done with Anderson
DT is way too big
I never liked XT
Wago is not kid friendly

There is actually room for a big connector in the cars. Planes too. Weigh is more of a concern than volume...

... Whatever it is it has to very easily terminate to Noodle wire. I truly prefer a crimp...

The problem with deans and XT is they're both solder cup. It doesn't scale to machine building well.

...

Must be polarized
Must interchange with something good up to 10awg
Must be able to work with 8 AWG
Probably doesn't need to go much smaller than 16 AWG

... I am most interested in spring loaded gold bumps*

The real ones are not cheap
There require some kind of perfect fit housing....


... I'm thinking about... A connector that looks like the old Apple laptop connectors. Gold bumps with four really good magnets :idea:

... Spring loaded, non corroding, polarized, quick connecting, pull away, ....

...

Pull away is a very important aspect of a connector. Anderson power pole 45 crimped into 10awg is an astounding connector.

You can go wrong with them. All my power supply leads are intermittent at this point. They were also all reworked.

The key to an Anderson connector is getting a proper crimp. It can't be tweaked or bent or tight in the housing. It has to function as it's intended.

... If the contacts are bent or tweaked or soldered or fubar in any way... They overheat and melt a little... Which exacerbates the problem....

Runaway

...

Hmmmmm...........................


Ganged multi-pin solution
Spring loaded solution
...

All connectors depend on a spring.
All connectors depend on a method to fight corrosion.
All power connectors need a heat sink.

...

A compound bow (archery) demonstrates that you can get tremendous Force through leverage.

Wago does this

...

Anderson demonstrates that you don't need precious metal, just soft metal.

The problem with Dean's is the leaf spring design.
Spring is the failure mode in Anderson as well... The one thing XT has going is that the springs in the connection points are separated from the housing. Should the housing deform a little the spring still work.

...

Nema 5-15 depends on a spring. Have a look at this nice sample!
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The failure was not the gray two prong adapter. The white plug came off of a very powerful wall heater. It melted into a socket last year....

As a test, I plugged it into this adapter and then plugged it into the wall again :mrgreen:

That's why you use UL rated materials
S*** works

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 25 2020 10:31am

Everything is going to be Electric very soon.

By Electric I mean huge batteries, high voltages, change out of components. . .

PG&E is just now getting on board. Micro grid is going to happen, and it's going to happen fast :shock:

... Mobility is number one

the first step to mobility for something huge and heavy is modularity.

if you can't move the whole thing then you better be able to move small parts of it.

If you have to move it then it has to be connectorized in an intelligent way. Intelligent means affordable.

If you have to move it then it has to be okay to drop it... It can break when you drop it... But I can't turn into a fireball. :kff:

...

Standoff distances
Dielectric strength
Safety disconnect plugs
Double shielding...

Emi

One shield holds in the noise
One shield protects you
You need two shields for the real high voltage stuff...

... the first guy to hardwire a 650 volt battery with welding cable. . . That's the guy that's going to f*** it up for all of us.

The cables expensive and stiff. 10 bucks a foot? Sounds like a good deal to me.

$150 connectors?
Is there a better one?

...

Making things small exacerbates all issues. people have been working with extremely high voltages and AC for a very long time. Of course AC has a zero crossing so it's friendly... But the same principle of big and simple works.

... For quenching ark

You really end up needing a gas-filled contactor. Killavac and gigavac. Prices have come way down on that stuff.

Those contactors happily depend on the heat sinking to the cables. For ring terminals I use the real heavy duty stuff. 2 to $5 a ring terminal.

Crimp the s*** out of those!

Heat shrink is five bucks a foot or more. $10 a foot for the good stuff....

Mobile stationery storage

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 25 2020 10:41am

On one side we have RC
On the other we have EV and stationary storage
In the middle we ultralight transportation

Single wheel devices
Two wheel devices
Three-wheel devices
Four-wheel devices

Prop driven devices... Around water
Jet-driven devices (prop in a tube)

... Going back in time

Track driven devices
Paddle wheel driven devices

....

Bipod devices are possible now with all the IMU and onboard processing. Even a $20 microcontroller can run 900 MHz with onboard hardware processing outside of the program counter....

I don't think that's going to be it

....

Hoverboards never materialized
Tunnels are starting to materialize
Drones have stalled out

... The problem with drones is prop noise, at every scale

Whining of the little ones
Whining up the big ones

... Hot air balloons, hydrogen balloons, rockets, submarines, parachutes...

...

...
.......

We're still solving "the last mile".
There is the last mile for personal transportation.
There is the last mile for delivery of goods and services.

Amazon has the best solution with their drop off stations. If you don't already know this, the majority of cost of delivery is the last few miles to your house.

You can ship something all the way around the world for $3. That's just pallets and forklifts and conveyor belts.

The UPS trucks f****** expensive

...

Same is true with humans

We can move humans all over the place in Mass.... Rails and tunnels and hovercraft... But not everybody gets to have a landing pad on the roof

You have to make up the last one two three five eight miles.

... I'm sorry but it's not going to be one wheel

It's not going to be electric unicycles

It's not going to be electric skateboards

I'd have not seen any electric roller skates

...

Shared bicycles were a good idea... They don't work in bad weather or carrying a heavy load

Shared cars were a good idea but it needs to scale down

Shared electric golf cart NEVs it's probably the best bet. That works because they're off highway and don't need all the same safety standards

35 mph crash is pretty harsh... And the primary blocker to all of that is the three and 4,000 lb vehicles dropping all over the roads

We will have to ban heavy vehicles on local roads to make it work

...

All of this has been chewed to the Bone for well over a decade... It's all in the slide decks... We're waiting for you guys to solve it :idea:

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 25 2020 10:54am

Happy Christmas

I hope you have a house. . . And other humans to enjoy it with.

Tomorrow it's back to the grind, and the clock is ticking.

... Somebody's going to win real big


...
...

I have bets placed on:
Chargepoint
Freewire
Tesla

I have a list of losers too. . . But who wants to spoil the fun.

Charge point is going to make it.
Free wire is going to make it.
Tesla is going to show the way.

... Don't worry about patents

Don't fight amongst yourselves!
Share and share alike!

... There's more money in this than there's ever been in anything before. It's a total restart . . .

...

You absolutely have to have iot capability

You absolutely have to have phone integration

You absolutely have to run high voltage

You absolutely must be mobile or modular and highly serviceable.

You absolutely must integrate with EVs bi-directionally

You are absolutely going to need some kind of high voltage bus like 480 mains or 750 volts DC...

You absolutely have to integrate with variable micro harvesting and macro harvesting.

Solar
Wind
Hydro

You absolutely, absolutely, absolutely... Have to play nice with diesel and gas generators. It is unavoidable! you must accept that there will be some filth in the transition.

You absolutely must integrate with batteries of different standard. Different voltages, different current draw ratings...

You absolutely must be made up of UL approved products

...

Most all of us will have a Mobile battery very soon. It's called an electric vehicle. You do not need to fast charge it at home!

You should be discharging it at home :idea:

... You charge it at a node
A place like work
A place like a gas station
A place that has cables that are 6 in thick...


.... Unless you've worked with high power you're not understanding how this scales...

You need big f****** wires
Real big, carrying very high voltage...

... The wires you see in the sky are thousands of volts

... Any fantasy that we can do this at low voltage is worse than a distraction. I squared r, I times r... It's simply doesn't scale...

100 volts minimum
A thousand volts is better
10,000 volts is much better....

...

Think satellites and military.
Think hermetically sealed
Think gas filled
Think....

Think. . . . About the revolution.

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 25 2020 10:57am

[youtube]Zr9u77-rKOQ[/youtube]

And now we'll work from our sponsors :bigthumb:

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 25 2020 11:26am

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This BC168 is literally a fire starter.
Remember to spot-cal your equipment*

Source of Truth::. Fluke 86V

Spot-check:: Chargers Power BM6 V2.0 (watch out for counterfeit)

Super smoked::. BC168
I know recognize this as the unit that was sent for eval. Unfortunately it sat around for 3 years and I forgot :confused: ... Then someone was charging up 6s packs for a breather system. Light off.

... It reads wildly incorrect voltages, so here is your friendly neighborhood reminder... "Just because something has an LED screen, does not mean it's accurate"

... Wildly incorrect is what you get when you buy cheap s***, or used s*** which was abused. Quality s*** is either abuse resistant or will indicate when abused. When you buy bottom dollar value engineered... That means it doesn't have self-check
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I'm running stuff with analog dials over here
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I don't read the dials. I read the calibrated DMM hooked up in line or in parallel.

I remember to check the ripple voltage and ripple current

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 25 2020 11:29am

I let four of these chargers run overnight

Blinking means nothing is connected or something is wrong

Solid red means charging

Dark means finished

... This house came out okay but I don't think there's a balance or in there. I think it just puts out two voltages that are about 4.2 volts plus or minus 10%

Pretty easy to figure out....

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 25 2020 11:34am

Pictured are the two attachments you must have.

+ Gator clips, they come standard, genuine fluke
+ Needle probs, they will stab you, twenny bux

The needle probes are what you use to take a reliable measurement. The standard probes are too blunt to fit into the tabs of something like a jst xh.

... Eventually you end up with a toolbox full of adapter cables. Most of these will be in line. Shunt in the middle, or taps for your meter which has the shunt. In this way you can quickly and reliably measure voltage... And more importantly measure inline current.

Measurement of voltage and current comes before all of the things. If you come to my house with an AutoZone multimeter that cost $12, and tell me that is your source of Truth... :wink:

Well... Ok... But it's not suitable for real work*

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 25 2020 11:56am

Lots of optocouplers. Visually reverse engineerable design.

No trim pots.

... First we have to get it to read right, then we'll check if it's putting out correct voltages.
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...

There's only four or five things you need to be able to spot here

Power resistor
Mosfet or transistor
Optocopler and biasing

Transformers and switching circuits
LED drive and buttons

... Note that the design is highly modular. This is three different PCB boards coming together....

You can run or omit the balance board
You can change the value of the balance board
The balance board is floating in free air

... there's a temperature sensor dangling underneath the balance board. Couple of fans on the end of the assembly. No doubt two more PCB boards in there cuz they're brushless

Huge choke coil on the 12-volt input. Just some copper wire wound around a cheap ferrite

Only two electrolytics in the whole system, f****** amazing.

Auto couplers Auto couplers optical couplers... This thing doesn't touch means but there's lots of optical isolation.

... This is a value engineered design

Much to learn from a value engineered design. If it is in there, then you absolutely need it :mrgreen:

...

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 25 2020 11:59am

Look at the size of those exposed traces

Look at the mix of through hole and surface mount

Look at the use of orthogonal mounting

Look how it all slides into a common extrusion

Look how the user interface is separate... It is a separate entity from the power electronics

Fan module
Battery connection module
User interface module almost
Balance module
Powerboard module

... Five different low-cost interchangeable testable modules...

The value engineering is removal of connectors between them. Of course you could use pins and sockets

Got to go

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 25 2020 12:45pm

You have no idea how useful this is. . .

2.4A of USB 5V
150W of 120VAC

Compatible with a dozen batteries. . .
IMG_20201225_092113_compress17.jpg
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First you build the ultimate poor Man's setup.
* Cheap
* Electrically Isolated
* Hours if run time
* Lunchbox Scope. . . Suitable for HV measurement, in a pinch
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Use that for a while. . . Save 10% of your earnings. . . Get 2 isolated channels, 200MHz, 1KV rated. . .
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These are the sorts of tools you're going to need to have.

* Fluke 87V with the high voltage attachments
* Scope that is battery powered or isolated

These are the weapons of the revolution.

... But... I did pick up a ratcheting boxend set, as I still have to fix internal combustion engine is to get where I'm going.

. . . How's that for a man who lives at the beach? :es:

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 25 2020 12:52pm

Old meets new. . . "Function on the cheap"
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150 w is an ass load of power. You'd be surprised how many things you can power off of that. Most laptops are well under 150 w. More like 65, or less if you put them in a power save mode.

5 * 3.0V = 15V
5 * 4.2V = 21V

. . . So anything that produces 15 to 21 volts can be hoggered in to the Ryobi battery interface...



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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 25 2020 1:26pm

Field ready fast charger
Turn it up till it beeps
Back it off a bit
Disconnect when it beeps
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Smaller Wago 26 - 12AAG
Slam 8 or 9 or 10V... Whatever cc's out to 2C charge rate

... Beeper will keep you under 4.25 volts a channel

Dynamic voltage will go over 4.25...

... Max current?
Amps
3A for certain
5A is all we could ever need....

Don't need to bulk charge through the deans

... All made from cut down 5S JST-XH
Still locks
Still keyed

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by goatman » Dec 25 2020 1:39pm

for bigger jobs

Image

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 26 2020 12:33am

So rad :thumb: :bigthumb:

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by Lenk42602 » Dec 26 2020 10:28am

methods wrote:
Dec 25 2020 10:19am

That brings us into connector standards*

....

I'm done with Anderson
DT is way too big
I never liked XT
Wago is not kid friendly

There is actually room for a big connector in the cars. Planes too. Weigh is more of a concern than volume...

... Whatever it is it has to very easily terminate to Noodle wire. I truly prefer a crimp...

The problem with deans and XT is they're both solder cup. It doesn't scale to machine building well.


-methods
Can't think of an application where we've continued to use solder cup connectors when a robust crimp solution was available for Electric, Hybrid-Electric AV Prototyopes.

We're tearing oem cars apart, tapping into high power from DC-DC converters, and using all manner of wire guage/connector you can possibly imagine.

then out for testing. road testing.

shit vibrates

systems engineers yank on shit to "fix" a temporary need

shit vibrates some more

humans pull stuff

super dynamic environment.

over time crimps have proven far superior for purposes of corrosion resistance, robustness, certification, verification, repeatibility, scale.

of the 3000+ terminal connections we land in our AV systems, i don't think ANY are soldered any more. Only soldering is on our custom pcb's.

Team crimps FTW. This is a hand tool:

https://www.schaefer.biz/wp-content/upl ... _web-1.mp4

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by john61ct » Dec 26 2020 12:01pm

true gas-tight "cold weld" even better

but the proper tools cost


Image

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 26 2020 8:22pm

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Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by DogDipstick » Dec 27 2020 9:11am

I like Cannons.

Machined Cannons.

I cannot afford a Fluke. My optocouplers are just gonna have to live with Harbor Freight. Resistors, get in line.
Likely because I spent 780$.. wait.. no.. well, yeah around there.. maybe over a 1.2 grand by the time i'm done... daisey chaining the Uarts on my quad-channel, 32s, 5400w, charger/datalogger.

Just for one spreadsheet lol.



Why dont we use LED trigger plates ( as bldc motor position indicators) in EV? Methoed? Also, you know any good book on modern electrical design? Eh? I know a few I could share if you are into it.
83.1v of Ironhorse XC.. :) :bolt: by Chevy :bolt: :D Broke 10 horsies :twisted: (..about 85% healed..).. :? Waddyamean? You cant tell me how many amperes/Ft.^2 of the plate ?!?!? WTF. :x :| (gottenymoem4115thangs?Yall?) :confused: Fabricator @ BSECo. Inc.

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 27 2020 11:22am

Lenk42602 wrote:
Dec 26 2020 10:28am

Can't think of an application where we've continued to use solder cup connectors when a robust crimp solution was available for Electric, Hybrid-Electric AV Prototyopes.
Its been a while.
What have you been up to?

Sounds like truth above and below to me :idea:
Thanks for sharing.

Lenk42602 wrote:
Dec 26 2020 10:28am
We're tearing oem cars apart, tapping into high power from DC-DC converters, and using all manner of wire guage/connector you can possibly imagine.

then out for testing. road testing.

shit vibrates

systems engineers yank on shit to "fix" a temporary need

shit vibrates some more

humans pull stuff

super dynamic environment.
So true.
I have started using a milspec wire. Let me go get the link from Digikey...

Here we go:
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/det ... -9/2399732

The wire has two sleeves*
Dont be fooled, dig into the datasheets
Examples.png
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It strips really nice. First the top layer, then the second layer.
I have been using the Klein brand of strippers from Home Depot - Yellow and Red (for smaller). They work plenty fine.

...

* The Electrical Contact
* The Joining Point
* The Wire Run. . .

So much going on in a dynamic environment. Do everything you can to absorb this vibration in a productive way. . . ...

* I only buy Adhesive Lined heat shrink now
* I pay extra for 4:1 shrink
* I shrink WAY down for a niiiiicccceeee rubbery connection

<iframe seamless="seamless" style="width: 100%; border: none; display: block; max-width: 595px; height: 460px;" src="https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/embed/6320 ... play=false"> </iframe>

The embed did not run (I could make it. . .) but you can click.

Strangers with this kind of honesty DO make me grow a big rubbery one. . .
Lenk42602 wrote:
Dec 26 2020 10:28am
over time crimps have proven far superior for purposes of corrosion resistance, robustness, certification, verification, repeatibility, scale.

of the 3000+ terminal connections we land in our AV systems, i don't think ANY are soldered any more. Only soldering is on our custom pcb's.

Team crimps FTW. This is a hand tool:

https://www.schaefer.biz/wp-content/upl ... _web-1.mp4
Truth
All of my Pilot friends agree... Soldering connectors is FTF (For the Fail). Big fail in the sky. . . not for the win!

... That video is SEXY!
PRON

At first it SEEMS like it is not a gas tight crimp, but it is. What we are seeing at the end is flare out of the copper due to the compression a little farther back. If we cut that in half with a laser, we would see the goods.

... I love how you can see the stress marks take shape.... Pre-stressed to ensure bends in just the right spot.

...

I have
For hand/field repair. . . started paying good money for the machined crimps. So much easier when you have a harness stuck in place and you have to make the crimp down in the rig.

Image

Come in from all sides. . .

Image

Oh buddy . . . the confidence of crimping a properly matched gauge of wire into a barrel with an all-sides crimper. . . sigh... :oops:

...

Come around more often

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 27 2020 11:27am

john61ct wrote:
Dec 26 2020 12:01pm
true gas-tight "cold weld" even better

but the proper tools cost


Image
Those are nice cutaways.
Remember (Those at home) that above you are seeing a hair-thin outer crimp. In reality your terminal (for that much copper) will be a mechanical unit.

Image

I use lugs that look like that.

I recently evaluated THIS crimper

Image

Its a piece of shit but dirt cheap, variable tool head, gets the job done in a pinch. Light weight, throw it in the corner... It did come part after about 10 crimps. . . but only the C-Ring on the pins that set the tool head. You can just throw a zip-tie on there.

REMINDER
If you "Overuse" tools like these, they can and will explode. . . throwing parts with GREAT FORCE. Wear your frocking glasses!

... Battery powered is the only way to go tho... has to be battery powered FTW... They are coming very soon to the mass market. Problem is that they can also be fitted with a bolt cutter head

(In case you did not know, many things are delayed to market because they ALREADY EXIST as tools various forms of government use. ... so... when they see their super-proprietary, pocket-size, hardened bolt cutters. . . in green Ryobi... they start to get nervous. No shit)

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 27 2020 11:43am

IIn this week of Christmas Tips. . .
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vs
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Folks will tell you the first is something that you can not have and the second is something that you can. I of course. . . have the second. . . and I am trying to learn how to use them :mrgreen:

The first?
Best to build your own if buying or owning one is frowned up on. We use them for testing S/N ratio legitimately. You can do anything (including make Nuclear Bombs that fit in the back seat of a VW and can kill a million people instantly).

On that note

My father (who did not have much advice I would repeat. . .) did advise me when I started carrying to "never carry a weapon that you would not want used on yourself" :idea:

He was of course talking about knives, where in some altercation, your adversary takes your knife and cuts you up. ... Sound Advice.... and of course followed up with the advice "If you knock a man down, DONT let him get back up".

Also sound advice.

... Now listen here ladies and gentlemen. . .

The United States (and many others) have created horrific weapons. This is fine. . . but there is something everyone is missing. Folks are not understanding that ALL INFORMATION is on a ticking timebomb.

ALL INFORMATION
IS ON A TICKING TIME BOMB

. . . so if you built it. . . and you are running around terrorizing middle eastern people with it. . . very shortly. . . EVERYONE ELSE WILL HAVE THAT SAME WEAPON. :cry:

.. You have to understand this
... If you are a god fearing, trump voting, middle America (translated detached) persons who supports WAR and the WAR MACHINE... you HAVE TO frocking UNDERSTAND...

There are no more secrets

...

There are NO MORE SECRETS

...

If you built it. . .then within a few years. . . your adversary has something SAME OR BETTER.

OMFG how do people not understand this. . . The difference is that it is not Pre-1980's anymore. Nobody is handing off file folders full of classified documents in a opium den anymore. . . robots are doing the espionage. . . cloud computing is doing it . . . how can folks not get this?

...

If you build a new weapon, you are building one for yourself and one for the enemy.

FACT

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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methods   100 GW

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 27 2020 11:54am

. . . and that is why I do not take work in the (direct) Military Industrial Complex (MIC) anymore. . .

It is not because I am a pacifist.

I like weapons, have many.
I am a weaponeer . . . by training, profession, hobby.

* I reload
* I repair
* I restore
* I modify

No problem with it

* I support gun rights
* I have many weapons

. . . The point is: "I do not think it is wise to create horrific weapons for the enemy to use"

:)

Its real simple
I simply do not support the idea of making gnarlier and gnarlier weapons for my adversary to copy.

The linchpin of the argument is acceptance of FACT
The cops will tell you (in any State, County, City, or rural area) that "Ignorance of the law is not an excuse"

... same is true in debate*

... It is a logical fallacy to insist that something is false because you do not understand it

I understand it, know it to be true . . . so it is no matter for debate.

Encryption
It does not work (in the way folks think it does)

Any IT guy can explain it to you. It is information in the Public Domain.

... Ok, enough about that. Back to building Ebikes.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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methods   100 GW

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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 27 2020 11:56am

In Hand

* 10 turn hub motor laced into a nice 26" rim
* 6 or 12 fet controller, known good, from a nice guy in SF
* Two banks of 7S pulldown Zero pouches

. . . now what to make of that

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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methods   100 GW

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Joined: Aug 08 2008 12:08pm
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Re: Another full suspension build

Post by methods » Dec 27 2020 11:57am

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Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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