Mongoose Blackcomb

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Barncat   100 W

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by Barncat » Mar 25 2021 3:45pm

Shortened the kickstand and made footpegs out of some 1/8" aluminum angle. Light, sturdy, matches the look. There was a convenient flat spot under the frame with slight flanges front and rear to keep pegs from twisting, and a tapped M8 hole. So that was easy. Not sure what the original purpose of that was...
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owhite   100 W

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by owhite » Apr 04 2021 7:40am

Which version of VESC are you using? What amperage?

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by Barncat » Apr 06 2021 8:17am

I bought a Flipsky 6.6. 60V, 60A continuous, 150A peak. I've never programmed one, or any controller (being new to this), so if anyone happens to have experience with that unit please feel free to offer pointers...

I'm almost done with the 15s battery (225A capable) so the controller is the last thing on the list. Bursts of 9000 watts put this at a nominal 12hp peak, which on a 45lb bike will make it one of the highest power to weight machines I'm aware of.

Got a little sidetracked with other stuff recently, plus I picked up a Schwinn OCC Stingray in fair condition for 40 bucks the other day...

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by owhite » Apr 06 2021 12:52pm

I bought a Flipsky 6.6. 60V, 60A continuous, 150A peak. I've never programmed one, or any controller (being new to this), so if anyone happens to have experience with that unit please feel free to offer pointers...
I have a thread for a custom VESC and here's a post on programming it with VESC-tool:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=109266#p1608901

There's a nice wizard to set up your motor. Be sure to start with low levels of "max motor amperage" and "max battery amperage" for your initial smoke tests. When you want to start to get aggressive responses from the VESC, change your max amperages, and also try changing the throttle curve.

I can provide more details, just let me know.

Barncat   100 W

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by Barncat » Apr 06 2021 2:40pm

Thanks much for the link and offer of VESC assistance. I'll no doubt get stuck on something or another. I've watched a couple basic vids, and it's mostly just inputting data into the wizard, but easier said than done first time...

Kudos to you and all the other EEs on site building electronics from scratch.

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by Barncat » Apr 11 2021 1:25pm

owhite, et al- I did successfully download the vesc_tool_3.0 for Windows but have not tried using it yet as I still must wire up battery and controller to motor.

I suppose the first question is that this is clearly a vesc6 controller so I don't know that I have the compatible download, or is that selectable in the wizard?

Bought the Flipsky because they seem to be commonly available and used in all those Trampa boards. Not too familiar with vescs or who makes what other than b Vedder is the inventor...

The power switch clearly plugs into port #9, the usb is self explanatory, and the Hall ebike throttle goes to port #7 unless I'm badly mistaken. The T-motor I'm using is sensorless and this controller claims it'll operate that way. Will see...

I'm guessing to get a low-current battery voltage readout I could use Vbat and GND pins on plug #5? The only other interface I might want is regen braking- which ideally would also operate as a momentary kill switch failsafe. Not sure how to tie into unit for that.

Also there's a tiny selector switch for 3.3 or 5v. I set it to 5v.
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owhite   100 W

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by owhite » Apr 12 2021 8:36am

Barncat,

the following is advice from someone that has NOT used your version of the board -- so treat any advice as provisional.

On the leftmost panel of VESC-tool there is a menu item for "Firmware" and it looks like that is where you can change the hardware version. But I think V6.0 is the latest so I'm not sure you'll have to switch anything.

I have something similar to a power switch on my board, and yes, in my case it serves as a way of telling the board to activate. Attach a simple switch to those two leads. The microcontroller, and all the functions to run the motor are switched on based on closing the switch. Note that this is not really a _power_ switch -- it does not control all of the voltage from your battery is still coming _into_ the board. You will also get a big popping sound sometimes when you connect the battery leads, regardless if your switch is open or closed, but when plugging in your battery, start with it open.

I am not sure but based on what is labeled on port #7, my guess is the reason they put vBat on there is so an external board could measure the total volts of the battery. I did a 5 minute google search for braking and I didnt see anything. My guess is some throttles work by PPM (there's lots of tutorials if you havent heard about PPM, search on "PPM RC throttle"), and there is probably a way to configure that to do braking. Unfortunately it does not look like it works by using a simple switch.

Based on what I know about the boards you are correct the hall-based throttle would connect to #7, and there is a wizard in vesc-tool to help you configure the board to use it. I dont have much input on the sensorless mode.

The 3.3v/5v selector is probably to set port #3 -- some hall detectors use 3.3, or 5.0, or both.

hope that helps.

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by Barncat » Apr 12 2021 9:50am

Thanks for the tips. Sounds like the matching firmware etc is probably selectable in the tool then.

Unit is supplied with a push style on-off switch which will be mounted right next to throttle. And yes, I'm pretty familiar with big sparks and pops from caps instantly charging, tho this has an anti spark resistor on the XT 90. We'll see how long that lasts....

Good to note that the board is "hot" while plugged in. Part of the process today will be mounting it to the frame with things like that in mind.

I think you meant port #5 for battery voltage, and yes I'm pretty sure that's where to tap that necessary info. Will search PPM throttle stuff, thanks. Understood that braking may be a reverse throttle procedure. Not an immediate priority.

So yes, #7 for Hall throttle. The big question is will this work ok sensorless. I gambled a lot on that one......... I'm pretty sure most generic ebike throttles run at 5v, that selector switch may be global hence the 5v choice.

Should have more to report soon. Do you know of any RC forums that are more specific to this setup?

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owhite   100 W

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by owhite » Apr 12 2021 1:54pm

Do you know of any RC forums that are more specific to this setup?
When i work the googles I frequently get hits at this site:
https://electric-skateboard.builders/

and i'm not as much of a fan for but it bears mentioning:
https://forum.esk8.news/
Good to note that the board is "hot" while plugged in.
I want to be sure I'm explaining this properly. It's just that much of the board's _output_ would not be live until you activate the switch. But regardless of the state of the switch you could still short out the board. For example there are two solder tabs that come off of the yellow XT connector and are soldered to the board, and they will always be live. :flame: :flame: :flame:

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by fatty » Apr 12 2021 5:02pm

Great thread and build.
Barncat wrote:
Mar 23 2021 9:54am
...the plywood seat, which is believe it or not more comfortable than a conventional bike seat, and 3" closer to the ground for low CG. I may decide to do an irreversible frame mod to get seat pan 2" lower still, but no one could ever put a seat post on it again...
I've seen this plywood seat on both your builds, and as an advocate in low CoG, I'd love to learn as much as possible. How does it attach to the seat tube? Any other construction details?

What are your plans for an irreversible frame mode to get even lower? Would you keep the plywood seat, or adapt a moto-style seat?

Thanks!

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by Barncat » Apr 13 2021 9:40am

owhite- other websites noted, thanks...

Yes, there are some SERIOUS safety issues involved with installing this little controller. One entire face is electrically exposed, and you have the mutually exclusive goals of heat removal and electrical insulation/isolation. You can't just wrap it in foam, but the board must be protected from external shorts, and made able to be handled. Anyone who's used XT90 connectors knows how hard they are to pull apart. Plus the 3 caps are right next to the plug. I'm going to add a semi permanent "extension cord" that ties into the 8ga battery cables to give something to grip to disconnect for charging. Still working this all out.......

Fatty- in both cases I've used a short length of steel seat tube cut off with a vertical bandsaw at whatever sharp angle required to produce a level seat pan. Then a small steel plate with drilled mounting holes is TIGed to that, then slap on the plywood of your choice with some countersunk flathead screws. Most people would add a bit of foam padding, which can be done with two sided carpet tape... You can't really pedal a bike with this sort of arrangement unless it's in a recumbent position. The large surface area distributes pressure in an entirely different way than straddling a regular bike seat. Also, I've opted not to further modify this aluminum frame.

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by fatty » Apr 13 2021 12:02pm

Barncat wrote:
Apr 13 2021 9:40am
Fatty- in both cases I've used a short length of steel seat tube cut off with a vertical bandsaw at whatever sharp angle required to produce a level seat pan. Then a small steel plate with drilled mounting holes is TIGed to that, then slap on the plywood of your choice with some countersunk flathead screws. Most people would add a bit of foam padding, which can be done with two sided carpet tape... You can't really pedal a bike with this sort of arrangement unless it's in a recumbent position. The large surface area distributes pressure in an entirely different way than straddling a regular bike seat. Also, I've opted not to further modify this aluminum frame.
Interesting, thanks.
If you were to irreversibly modify the aluminum frame, how would you approach it? I'm thinking to cut off the projecting seat tube flush with the top tube and stay junction, then insert a cut-down aluminum 1-bolt seatpost and TIG or rivet it in place. Spaced holes in the seatpost would preserve some adjust-ability.

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by Barncat » Apr 13 2021 7:52pm

Yes you'd have to cut the remaining seat tube flush with the seat stays. I would then make a shaped aluminum plate riveted to the stays and bent at the correct angle to bolt the plywood to. Very light, very low profile, but irreversible and not really adjustable. I may decide to do that once I get some test riding in but gotta get it running first. I did make an electrically isolated mounting bracket for the vesc this afternoon that attaches to the water bottle rivnuts. Still have some wiring to finish...

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by Barncat » Apr 13 2021 8:06pm

Btw, if someone could enlighten me as to whether the exposed metal end cans of the 3 capacitors on this vesc are electrically live when charged that would be helpful.

I've not powered it up yet and have been unable to find that answer via search. Obviously if you were to short the plus and minus soldered cap connections you'd get zapped.

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by owhite » Apr 14 2021 8:58am

if someone could enlighten me as to whether the exposed metal end cans of the 3 capacitors on this vesc are electrically live when charged that would be helpful.
i dont dispute that they are, but they shouldnt be. Normally the can capacitor with exposed ends should not connect to anything and to be honest I'd be worried about the capacitor. If you have a continuity tester (usually found on all modern voltmeters) I would put a lead on the outer can, and check if it connects to gnd (which is sort of reasonable) or Vbat (which is incredibly stupid). Also test between the three cans. If it's just one then it might be blown. And, that sucks, honestly.

also, given the problems youre having I have two suggestions -- I would either remove the XT connector and attach leads -- or stick on an XT connector with leads and not plan on removing the connector from the board. Then, in either case 3D print a housing for that thing. ESCs are great but they really arent a complete solution for our purposes.

If you solder as good as you weld, I'm sure you'll be fine. :-) Those beads are nice, yo.

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by dougginnz » Apr 14 2021 8:35pm

Damn, that's a cool frame! I wish I could find some like that to base a build on... Cool thread. Following...😌

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by Barncat » Apr 14 2021 8:38pm

No worries on the caps- wasn't saying there was anything wrong, just didn't know if the metal cans are normally live when powered up.

Pic shows the electrically isolated board mount with the permanent XT90 extension. It's impossible to plug and unplug direct to the board. The disparity between 8ga battery cables and 26ga throttle and switch wires is laughable actually... I'll be adding a clear lexan board cover btw. Board heat sink is zip tied to an aluminum backing plate to increase heat removal.

I was 50% successful this afternoon with the vesc tool. Motor specs/detection was easy, tho it spun in reverse. Fortunately the very next step allows directional correction.

Ran into a problem with setting up the throttle. Had to first update the firmware, but the app would still not recognize the throttle when attempting to set range parameters. I'm 99% sure it's plugged into the wrong port (#7) which refers to servo... The tool calls out ebike throttles as ADC devices. The only reference on the specs sheet to ADC is port #1. So I'm going to connect the throttle to 5v, GND, and ADC1 and see if that works.
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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by Barncat » Apr 15 2021 9:19am

dougg- thanks and wish me luck with the throttle sorting. nz usually means New Zealand so hi on the other side of the globe.

I've read that others have dealt with this issue by splicing to a servo tester... not familiar with, and this latest stuff may work direct. Vesc tool specifies ebike throttles, and methinks the regen is built right into the throttle return if desired. Will see. Hefty learning curve for me...

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by owhite » Apr 15 2021 12:27pm

.The tool calls out ebike throttles as ADC devices. The only reference on the specs sheet to ADC is port #1. So I'm going to connect the throttle to 5v, GND, and ADC1 and see if that works.
Yah sorry this is unknown territory for me, I don't know how that specific ESC works. But connecting adc1 seems pretty reasonable.

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by Barncat » Apr 15 2021 12:38pm

Success. That's where yer standard issue ebike Hall throttle goes right there folks. (It's the bottom larger plug in pics below).

Red to +5v, black to GND, and white (or whatever your throttle sense wire color is) to ADC1. Per the schematic in previous post above.

After rooting around in a pile of various used pin out connectors, and there are at least 3 different sizes btw, all tiny, I found a suitable female plug with wires attached to splice to the throttle. The only other absolutely necessary item is the on/off switch which is supplied with the unit.

The vesc tool is actually quite easy to use. You connect, set up the motor, and then set up the input device. That's basically it. I will no doubt make refinements now that it's less intimidating. The tool is however very glitchy. It spit out "update firmware" and refused to map the throttle voltage several times before finally kicking in and seeing the magic green bar rise and fall with a wrist twist.

I gotta say- I've built an absolute monster here. I don't even dare go past half throttle with no load. The wheel spin up is instantaneous and ferocious. Those Molicels pack some real punch.

Have a number of minor things to complete prior to rolling it out the garage door. Test piloting ensues...
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Barncat   100 W

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by Barncat » Apr 15 2021 12:43pm

All good owhite as per above, and thanks.

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by Ecyclist » Apr 16 2021 9:51pm

I have e-bike running on VESC for 3.5 years and I love it. I just hope that one day VESC will have a pedalec build into programming.
Here is YouTube video how to set-up throttle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpeA6QRTZg8
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Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
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2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

Barncat   100 W

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by Barncat » Apr 17 2021 5:17pm

Ecyclist- seems that the tiny vesc should work fine, as your experience indicates. I was very concerned that running sensorless would be a problem but the throttle response is far smoother and tunable as opposed to the big generic controller on my first build.

Took it out for some brief test riding last evening. I got a few glitchy cut outs which I'm going to attribute to my experimental battery. Just need to tweak a few things and also get into granular detail on the motor setup. On paper this thing should hit nearly 60mph...

I read some scary but unclear (to me) warning on the vesc-project website about ebike throttles frying vesc6 hardware. Do you see anything wrong with the way I've wired mine straight to the ADC1 pin?
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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by fatty » Apr 19 2021 10:41am

Variable regen appears to be controlled via second (or two-way?) throttle on ADC2.

Curious if you're looking into cruise control?

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Re: Mongoose Blackcomb

Post by Barncat » Apr 19 2021 4:01pm

fatty- thanks for that link and yes, from what I've seen in the vesc tool so far ADC2 is where you setup regen. Low priority at the moment. I have no plans for cruise control as I'm usually very engaged in the riding with a lot of on off throttle.

I'm still sorting an intermittent contact issue with my second no-weld no-solder hi current battery pack, but believe I've arrived at a clever solution. Waiting for a couple parts... The first battery build is sorted and functioning perfectly for some 500 miles on the "Mongoose girder" build. Weeks ago I swapped out the mixed Panasonic and LG 6A cells for all LG MJ1 lightly used 10A cells from batteryhookup. Good move.

Should have more to report in a few days.

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