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Re: What can a Grin controller + cycle analyst do that KT controllers + KT display can't do?

Posted: Nov 25 2021 9:59am
by AHicks
Regarding the KT display potential to read motor temp, agree the displays are able to display it, but I've never seen anything anywhere on where or how that temp is input. There are no specific/dedicated wires for that purpose anywhere on the controller. The white wire coming from the motor is from the motor's speed sensor....

Re: What can a Grin controller + cycle analyst do that KT controllers + KT display can't do?

Posted: Nov 25 2021 10:22am
by Comrade
AHicks wrote:
Nov 25 2021 9:59am
Regarding the KT display potential to read motor temp, agree the displays are able to display it, but I've never seen anything anywhere on where or how that temp is input. There are no specific/dedicated wires for that purpose anywhere on the controller. The white wire coming from the motor is from the motor's speed sensor....
Right. But read the last part of my last reply. The signal is "multiplexed".

Re: What can a Grin controller + cycle analyst do that KT controllers + KT display can't do?

Posted: Nov 25 2021 10:52am
by ZeroEm
Controllers now can be configured by your phone (wireless) so a display is not needed. I find most display's limited, they do the basic functions. CA gives me a lot of options on how i'm using power. Have two controls connected to it. Can change what they do and have it at my finger tips as I ride. On the fly adjustments. Most do not need or want a CA. I like to keep a check on how fast i'm depleting my battery and how much range i'm doing.

One screen that displays my cadence as I need to work on that as it's to low. Have my trike where unless you pedal at 0.5 kph it has no power. Stops people pushing the throttle and trike taking their feet out from under them.

Re: What can a Grin controller + cycle analyst do that KT controllers + KT display can't do?

Posted: Nov 25 2021 11:46am
by E-HP
ZeroEm wrote:
Nov 25 2021 10:52am
On the fly adjustments. Most do not need or want a CA. I like to keep a check on how fast i'm depleting my battery and how much range i'm doing.
Yup, not for everyone; but on the other hand, I didn't know I needed one until a got one. My original purpose was to add PAS to my setup, when upgrading my controller and batteries. Now, that's one of the lower value features compared to how I use the CA. Even though the controller is programmable, I leave the settings wide open/unlimited, and do everything with the CA. The only controller features I use are the cruise control, 3 position switch and regen.

I use the quick access settings for my battery, to easily switch between 52V and 72V, and all the other settings adjust; and use the quick access mode settings for normal, off road, and unlimited setups. I also didn't expect that the bike wouldn't be rideable at 72V for normal use, but luckily the CA throttle ramping took care of that, so I only uses throttle bypass mode in the unlimited setup.

If I want to move to a torque based PAS, the CA supports that; which is a rare feature. The KT open source firmware supports it, but I don't know many other off the shelf controller that do. But, the features the CA adds to cadence PAS, like ramping up the power based on higher cadence, really work well for me and the hills I ride on.

I went from not knowing if I needed one to accepting that it's a sunk cost or given for any other ebike project going forward. I don't really use the display much while riding; I know when I'm going fast or slow, or using more or less power without looking at a display, but I do use it to monitor my battery level. I like looking at the cell level voltage, and run from 4.1V down to 3.6V, so I like that the CA does the math for me on that.

Re: What can a Grin controller + cycle analyst do that KT controllers + KT display can't do?

Posted: Nov 25 2021 1:29pm
by AHicks
Comrade wrote:
Nov 25 2021 10:22am
AHicks wrote:
Nov 25 2021 9:59am
Regarding the KT display potential to read motor temp, agree the displays are able to display it, but I've never seen anything anywhere on where or how that temp is input. There are no specific/dedicated wires for that purpose anywhere on the controller. The white wire coming from the motor is from the motor's speed sensor....
Right. But read the last part of my last reply. The signal is "multiplexed".
You're referring to the signal from the controller to the display. I get that piece. That's easy. What I don't get, and challenge you to find, is regarding how to supply the controller with input/a signal to send to the display.

Put another way-
Lets say you take the time and trouble to install a temp sensor in your motor. Kindly show me where you hook that temp sensor output to a KT controller so it will send the signal to allow the display to show the motor's temp.

Hint: this is not about the display, or the "multiplexed" wires between the controller and the display.....

Re: What can a Grin controller + cycle analyst do that KT controllers + KT display can't do?

Posted: Nov 25 2021 2:08pm
by E-HP
AHicks wrote:
Nov 25 2021 1:29pm

You're referring to the signal from the controller to the display. I get that piece. That's easy. What I don't get, and challenge you to find, is regarding how to supply the controller with input/a signal to send to the display.

Put another way-
Lets say you take the time and trouble to install a temp sensor in your motor. Kindly show me where you hook that temp sensor output to a KT controller so it will send the signal to allow the display to show the motor's temp.

Hint: this is not about the display, or the "multiplexed" wires between the controller and the display.....
The software and descriptions claim to support it, but there's no hardware to support it, so no way to substantiate those claims. If you look at the wiring for the KT controllers, the 6 pin Molex only has 5 wires, so no sixth wire to monitor temps.

Re: What can a Grin controller + cycle analyst do that KT controllers + KT display can't do?

Posted: Nov 25 2021 4:39pm
by AHicks
With the KT method of doing things (serialized data wires), there would be no extra/dedicated wire necessary.

It is a hardware issue, as there is no place to connect the data wire coming from the temp sensor. That said, would love to be shown that's not the case. I've installed a bunch of these and have never seen any way to hook up a temp sensor....

Re: What can a Grin controller + cycle analyst do that KT controllers + KT display can't do?

Posted: Nov 25 2021 4:58pm
by Comrade
AHicks wrote:
Nov 25 2021 1:29pm
You're referring to the signal from the controller to the display.
I'm referring to the signal from the motor to the controller.
AHicks wrote:
Nov 25 2021 1:29pm
Put another way-
Lets say you take the time and trouble to install a temp sensor in your motor. Kindly show me where you hook that temp sensor output to a KT controller so it will send the signal to allow the display to show the motor's temp.
The speed sensor wire (white) is what sends the analog temperature to the controller. The controller talks to the display via 2 digital data wires.
E-HP wrote:
Nov 25 2021 2:08pm
The software and descriptions claim to support it, but there's no hardware to support it, so no way to substantiate those claims. If you look at the wiring for the KT controllers, the 6 pin Molex only has 5 wires, so no sixth wire to monitor temps.
My KT controller has 6 wires for the hall sensors. Positive (red) to power all halls, black is ground, then 3 wires (blue, green, yellow) from the 3 hall sensors that read the position of the motor, and 1 wire (white) that reads speed from the speed hall sensor.

It is on the white wire that in theory temperature gets "multiplexed", if the motor has an internal temperature sensor tied in with the speed hall sensor.

Re: What can a Grin controller + cycle analyst do that KT controllers + KT display can't do?

Posted: Nov 25 2021 7:35pm
by AHicks
Comrade wrote:
Nov 25 2021 4:58pm
It is on the white wire that in theory temperature gets "multiplexed", if the motor has an internal temperature sensor tied in with the speed hall sensor.
I believe that my friend, is wishful thinking. If you show me a KT display successfully displaying a motor temp. THEN I'll believe you.

Re: What can a Grin controller + cycle analyst do that KT controllers + KT display can't do?

Posted: Nov 25 2021 7:44pm
by Comrade
AHicks wrote:
Nov 25 2021 7:35pm
I believe that my friend, is wishful thinking. If you show me a KT display successfully displaying a motor temp. THEN I'll believe you.
I have a bench signal generator and I should be able to easily simulate this "multiplexed" signal to test it out. I'll return to my workbench in early December, so we'll see what happens.

The display certainly is able to display a motor temperature.

TMP = ambient
MTP = motor (no thermistor)
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(P1020376.JPG)_cb56667e76e4206cf0572c282608b79d.JPG (196.04 KiB) Viewed 74 times

Re: What can a Grin controller + cycle analyst do that KT controllers + KT display can't do?

Posted: Nov 25 2021 9:53pm
by john61ct
Perhaps since the educational value of the "Grin vs KT display" has pretty much run its course, of good reference value for others

Maybe worth opening a new thread on KT specific topics like these data comms protocols

Re: What can a Grin controller + cycle analyst do that KT controllers + KT display can't do?

Posted: Nov 26 2021 1:16am
by amberwolf
ZeroEm wrote:
Nov 25 2021 10:52am
Controllers now can be configured by your phone (wireless) so a display is not needed.
*Some* controllers, more typically the medium-to-high-end ebike/scooter types.

Most controllers cannot. (based on a look around google for controllers in general)

Perhaps in the future more will be, but the "average" controller doesn't even have a way to use a display for it (and has no programmability). (More of those do now than a few years ago, but it's still limited to some (common) series of them.)

Re: What can a Grin controller + cycle analyst do that KT controllers + KT display can't do?

Posted: Nov 26 2021 2:05am
by E-HP
Comrade wrote:
Nov 25 2021 4:58pm

My KT controller has 6 wires for the hall sensors. Positive (red) to power all halls, black is ground, then 3 wires (blue, green, yellow) from the 3 hall sensors that read the position of the motor, and 1 wire (white) that reads speed from the speed hall sensor.
It's good to hear that they're making some changes/improvements. :thumb:

Re: What can a Grin controller + cycle analyst do that KT controllers + KT display can't do?

Posted: Nov 26 2021 9:15am
by AHicks
Comrade wrote:
Nov 25 2021 7:44pm
AHicks wrote:
Nov 25 2021 7:35pm
I believe that my friend, is wishful thinking. If you show me a KT display successfully displaying a motor temp. THEN I'll believe you.
I have a bench signal generator and I should be able to easily simulate this "multiplexed" signal to test it out. I'll return to my workbench in early December, so we'll see what happens.

The display certainly is able to display a motor temperature.

TMP = ambient
MTP = motor (no thermistor)
As others seem to find this information of no interest, to maintain peace, I'll defer further discussion awaiting your testing done at a future date. Very interest in your finding. Have an open mind on the topic. Would love to be proven wrong, and will be very interested in how/what you used to do it. -Al

Re: What can a Grin controller + cycle analyst do that KT controllers + KT display can't do?

Posted: Nov 26 2021 9:58am
by ZeroEm
Did not try to suggest that non programable controllers would have wireless. If it came across that way then apologize for the confusion.

We are talking about high end features that are not provided with most common controllers.
by amberwolf » Nov 26 2021 1:16am

ZeroEm wrote: ↑Nov 25 2021 10:52am
Controllers now can be configured by your phone (wireless) so a display is not needed.
*Some* controllers, more typically the medium-to-high-end ebike/scooter types.

Most controllers cannot. (based on a look around google for controllers in general)

Perhaps in the future more will be, but the "average" controller doesn't even have a way to use a display for it (and has no programmability). (More of those do now than a few years ago, but it's still limited to some (common) series of them.)