Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/64v Headway build

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Hyena » May 17 2010 7:13pm

Whats the latest on the MAC Mark ? I take it from the lack of updates it's running well with the BMC gears and still doing OK on 30 amps ?
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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » May 18 2010 5:19am

It's all good, going well.


I have a new "Crystalyte" 18 FET Infineon to replace the "Soft Start" 18 FET Infineon which has slow speed startup issues.

But apart from that, it's great.


The BMC Composite gears and the V3 freewheel are holding up well.


The bike is solid, handles well. Fast...um...too fast :twisted:
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Whiplash » Jul 14 2010 11:08pm

Hey Mark, I just wanted to stop in and ask how the bike is running? What power are you feeding it nowadays? I am getting ready to start my build and have a few ideas on how to help hold this thing together at the power level you initially tried. I think if the Lyen Metal gear is used, (its heat treated) and the key is fit tight, and lock tight-ed from the get go, it will have a good chance of taking the power I think. I may even try a second key or increase the press fit by way of knurling the shaft to increase its O.D. and tighten it up that way. (I like this idea better really) But we will see. As for the power of the motor, the electrical side took the power fine didn't it? It seems like it did, I just would like to know for sure, so if I need to upgrade the phase wires while I am in there, I can but not if I don't need to...

Thanks a ton man! Hope all is well!
-Bryan
Last edited by Whiplash on Jul 14 2010 11:18pm, edited 1 time in total.
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

Email me @ currentcycles@gmail.com
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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Jul 14 2010 11:15pm

No, it's dead at the moment.

I changed controllers to fix a minor stall issue at takeoff with the Infineon 18 FET.


Now I have a major stall issue with a "Crystalyte" Infineon 18 FET controller.


And the BMS trips when I plug the battery in.


The electrics are FARKED right now.


I'll fix it when it gets warmer and drier, it's nasty now.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Whiplash » Jul 14 2010 11:21pm

Really? I thought it was working well? was it always stalling like that? I am hoping my Lyen controller works well with it, but I would assume Lyen would not sell me a controller that didn't work with the motor, I have spoken with him at length to get this dialed in for me. Well, keep this thread updated, I am curious what is wrong, I hope its nothing too bad and you get to ride again soon!

-Bryan
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

Email me @ currentcycles@gmail.com
OR check out http://www.CurrentCycles.net

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by 1000w » Jul 15 2010 1:32am

Whiplash wrote:Really? I thought it was working well? was it always stalling like that? I am hoping my Lyen controller works well with it, but I would assume Lyen would not sell me a controller that didn't work with the motor, I have spoken with him at length to get this dialed in for me. Well, keep this thread updated, I am curious what is wrong, I hope its nothing too bad and you get to ride again soon!

-Bryan
FYI my Lyen 12 fet is working faultlessly with my Mac. Set at 30amp main current and 75amp phase current.
Cheers,
Matt.P.

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Whiplash » Jul 15 2010 9:18am

Cool! Thanks for the info!
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

Email me @ currentcycles@gmail.com
OR check out http://www.CurrentCycles.net

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Aug 07 2010 7:40pm

Just a quick update.

My bike has been off the road for about a month now.


I tried to change controllers, as the old 18 FET soft start Infineon still had a minor shudder at take off, and a really annoying stall problem - sometimes you'd open the throttle, and nothing happened....usually when a truck was coming.

I got a broken 18 FET Crystalyte controller (still an Infineon on the inside) from Full-Throttle, and he'd found the dead FET. So I replaced it.


So it took me a couple of weeks to do the controller swapout - the controller was hard wired in, with the CA shunt inside, and huge phase wires direct to the board (In the immortal words of Joe Biden, it was "a big fraking deal"..)


So I finally get the controller wired up...and the BMS shuts off instantly. It will only run with the charger connected. The controller still seems to have the stall problem...ARRRGH!!! :cry:



After a week or so of being pissed at the bike, I pull the battery out and check the cells (I soldered Lipo balance connectors to all cells). Yep, one cell is at zero volts. This is a new headway cell I fitted after a failed tab weld killed the BMS balancing circuit and discharged the cell to zero. I thought I'd fixed that, but no, the BMS killed another cell.


So, I bought a 20cell ecitypower BMS and charger, plus another cell. And rebuilt my battery as a 20 cell pack. Rather than a 16 cell pack with 4 boosters.


Yesterday I finally got the controller jerry-rigged and gave it a spin. Thankfully it WORKS.

There is no shudder problem with this controller. The stall protection is still there, but it seems to be working properly. It starts fine from a dead stop 9/10 times, and if the bike it rolling just
a tiny bit (the amount you need to get your feet on the pedals) it seems to be fine.

I set the controller limit at 30A, but it's giving 50A :twisted: The bike is awesome at 50A....but the Mac will die, so I'll set it back at 30A or so (trial and error with controller programming).


So, I just need to the the controller mounting sorted, and clean up the wiring. Then I'll be back on the road.


I also want to redo my mudguards. And I think I need bigger triple clamps. My bike looks funny compared to Doctorbass's.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by adrian_sm » Aug 08 2010 6:09am

Finally got it sorted, awesome. :D
Mark_A_W wrote: So, I bought a 20cell ecitypower BMS and charger, plus another cell. And rebuilt my battery as a 20 cell pack. Rather than a 16 cell pack with 4 boosters.

Yesterday I finally got the controller jerry-rigged and gave it a spin. Thankfully it WORKS.
Hey just out of interest, do you see any difference in voltage sag with the new BMS. I suspected the headway BMS might be causing the bigger voltage drop under load that we have seen on the headways on the bikes, versus what the spec sheets claim.

- Adrian
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Aug 08 2010 7:57am

Nup, that's not it.

Under 50A, my 64v pack is sagging to 51v.

These Headways are very robust otherwise, but they sag like crazy.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Whiplash » Aug 08 2010 9:41am

LIPO......That is all.






















Sags about 1-2 volts, LOL! Seriously though, your bike would be SOO much lighter and physically smaller! Glad to hear its all working well now though!
.
.
.
.
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

Email me @ currentcycles@gmail.com
OR check out http://www.CurrentCycles.net

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Aug 08 2010 4:33pm

Lipo is not recyclable, and is made from some fairly nasty materials.

Lipos will never end up in cars - they are a dead end.

I did have some Lipo boosters, and they lasted a year.

There a reasons to avoid them, despite their performance.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Hyena » Aug 08 2010 6:28pm

Have you tried the new gen lipo though Mark ?
Mine are over a year old now and just yesterday I pulled 9ah from a 10ah pack. They do sag a little more than when brand new (still only a few volts though) but they've also got 300+ cycles on them too.

As for being recyclable, how do you recycle headways ??
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New FUTR and Hyena special edition Beta frames now available!
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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Aug 08 2010 6:41pm

I take them to the local battery recycler which is just around the corner.

I'm not 100% certain they can handle them yet, but it is possible at least.


My Headways are two years old now, and I get 9Ah out of a 10Ah pack. But I only ever got 9Ah out of the pack when new (it depends where the LVC is set in the BMS).

If I was to get better batteries, I think I would be looking at the better LiFePO4 available now (and hopefully I could still use my BMS and charger).


I really do like my single connection charger. When I had Lipos (or headway boosters) it was messy. I know you can get a BMS for Lipo but I'm not aware of anyone who has a fully integrated lipo pack, most a just a bunch of RC packs with RC chargers. Been there, done that, it's a pain for a twice a day charging commuter bike.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Whiplash » Aug 08 2010 9:55pm

Actually a few vehicles are using lipo, one of which is the new KTM motocross electric. I also believe the Tesla Roadster is also Lipo powered, but it is a fancy one if I recall, its Nano tech Lipo. But My bike is using a single plug charger and I just use a cell monitor to keep an eye on the voltage as its charging. Once you get the feel for the charge time, I just set a timer and come back in an hour when its close and then watch it for the last little bit. I almost never have to balance them...
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

Email me @ currentcycles@gmail.com
OR check out http://www.CurrentCycles.net

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Hyena » Aug 08 2010 11:15pm

Yeah I use a 6 pin anderson plug to bulk charge the 6S sub packs in 3P, it never needs balancing and is still a single plug in charging solution. I manually check each of the 3 sub units once a month just to be on the safe side.

If I ever get around to converting a car to electric it'll use a small suitcase (carry on luggage size) full of lipo as the short range battery pack - easily removed for charging if needed (wheel it into your office or what ever if there's no outside power points) and easily ejected in case of impact... :lol:
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New FUTR and Hyena special edition Beta frames now available!
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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Aug 08 2010 11:54pm

Unless they have changed, Tesla uses A123 LiFePO4 cells.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Hyena » Aug 09 2010 12:30am

Last I heard they were using something rediculous like 7000 18650 lithium ion cells. That may have been the earlier model though, I dont know if they've changed recently. I remember them pointing out they were the same as used in most laptop batteries.
www.HyenaElectricBikes.com
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New FUTR and Hyena special edition Beta frames now available!
My build and HD video thread____. My youtube channel____ Hyena Facebook page
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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by adrian_sm » Aug 09 2010 12:51am

Think Hyena's memory might still be okay ...
November 30, 2006 by Tesla Motors wrote:By now most people know that the Tesla Roadster is powered by Lithium ion (Li-ion) batteries. But here are a few things about our batteries you might not have heard. Our battery system – or Energy Storage System, as we like to call it – is comprised of 6,831 individual Li-ion cells. It's roughly the size of a storage trunk and weighs about 900 pounds.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=39
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Aug 09 2010 12:54am

Yeah, the cylindrical A123s.


This is all academic. I'm not ponying up for a better battery. This one works fine.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Aug 09 2010 2:00am

Did some googling, the Tesla may use Panasonics....it's hard to tell.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by adrian_sm » Aug 09 2010 2:15am

I think the Panasonic batteries are the next generation they are planning on using. For the current Tesla pack, cell voltages are quoted as charge to 4.15V, don't go below 3.0V. Sounds like LiPo rather than LiFePo4.

But back on topic, I still have to agree with you, I love the simplicity of our current LiFePo4 bike pack charging.

Plug in charger, Walk away. Too Easy.
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by liveforphysics » Aug 09 2010 2:17am

Mark_A_W wrote:Unless they have changed, Tesla uses A123 LiFePO4 cells.

Tesla has never used any A123 products. They use LiCoO2 (the dangerous Lithium) cylinder cells in 18650 size.

The new cells they are working with are the 3.4Ah Panasonic cells, which use a Nickle based cathode, and traditional carbon annode. I guess they would be LiNiOx?

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Whiplash » Aug 09 2010 8:03am

I knew they where something a little Different, but the characteristics of their batteries are the same as Lipo really. They just have a good monitoring system, which with all the e-heads on here, I just don't understand why we don't have a simple hook up solution for yet. A basic BMS like used for Lifepo4 would seem very easy to make, I know Goodrum has his boards and I plan to use them, but it seems like someone would at least be manufacturing these by now for sale finished...
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

Email me @ currentcycles@gmail.com
OR check out http://www.CurrentCycles.net

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Aug 14 2010 7:54pm

Ok, back to the original topic...


The bike is now running...after about 6 weeks friggin around.


The new controller works pretty well, it's very smooth, and the throttle response is very linear and easy to use.


With the controller firmware set at 30A battery / 90A current, I actually got 50A and the bike was AWESOME! Wheely time.


But last time I went there the motor died, and I also run out of range (this is a commuter after all, not a toy).


So I set the controller to 20A/60A and the CA is reporting a max current of 40A, but that's flashing by too fast for the display - I only ever see it in the 30-35A range, and it "feels" like 30-35A.




But, it's not all rosy. The controller STILL has a minor stall issue. Sometimes when I open the throttle, nothing happens. It's not just at standstill. I guess the windings are so low on this motor that the controller decides it has a dead short.

I guess I'll have to live with it, it doesn't happen very often, only when a truck is about to hit me.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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