Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

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mikeross   1 W

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Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by mikeross » Apr 06 2010 12:20pm

Here are some photos of my work in progress, which is a build using a Tidal Force S-750 frame obtained from oatnet/JD here on the E-S forum (plus a bunch of extra bike parts). In addition to the S-750 frame, I decided upon a 9 Continents rear hub motor with a 20 amp Infineon controller, a 7 speed rear cassette, and a Cycle Analyst from ebikes.ca/Justin and Adam. Finally, I obtained a 36V 10ah headway battery and rack from EVcomponents (in the for sale section). The EV battery did not come with a charger, and the BMS was suspect, so I ordered these parts from Ping.

First, I would just like to say THANK YOU to the Endless-Sphere forum and all the experts who have given so much of their time and knowledge!

OK, some photos:

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There's an ebike in there somewhere...

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Frame and parts from oatnet.

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Nine Continents (9C) rear hub motor

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9C motor on frame (frame is upside down).

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After a trip to the local bike shop! Lookin' Good!

Looks like a 5 picture limit.... Still to go - replace original BMS with Signalab BMS from Ping. Run wiring, electrical connections. Add rear fender, rear rack with battery, and a chain guard. Ride!

Thanks for looking.
Mike
Current bike: Tidal Force, 9C Rear Hub, Maybe a 36v 10ah Battery Pack

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by El_Steak » Apr 06 2010 8:24pm

It's coming along nicely!

What fork are you using?

I really need to get some fenders like you... one little puddle and the whole thing needs to be cleaned :x
TidalForce S-750 frame
Rear 2807 in a 24" wheel fed by a Methods 100V 100A controller
LiPo config: 24s3p 15ah
All the details here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=17166

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by chroot » Apr 07 2010 10:24am

front shock? It look like crappy and cheap DART 3 suspension fork.
@El_Steak - What fork are you using?
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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by mikeross » Apr 07 2010 10:32am

Thanks, el_steak! That is a Rock Shox Dart 2 front fork - something the bike shop recommended. Some of those Rock Shox suspension forks cost upwards of $1,000 for the serious ones, this one was $135. The front fender slides into a small slot on the fork, and comes on and off by pressing the orange button in the back. Here's a photo - I also splurged for a hydraulic front disk brake :)

Image

Mike
Current bike: Tidal Force, 9C Rear Hub, Maybe a 36v 10ah Battery Pack

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by BikeFanatic » Apr 07 2010 10:47am

I like it, looks exactly like my Mine :P 9C Tidal force frame, I also have the DART 2 and it is great for on road use.
Keep us posted if you figure out the BMS and the headway pack

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by ambroseliao » Apr 07 2010 11:47am

The Shockboard front fenders are OK. I have the front one as well and it isn't quite long enough to cover the upsplash from the tire. I also get a nice beat of water coming off my Schwalbe Big Apple (near slick) tires which shoots up and forward and gets blown back on to the bike and me at speed. I need to come up with a more complete front fender.
Last edited by ambroseliao on Apr 07 2010 12:37pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TidalForce M-750X, Tidalforce S-750 with Crystalyte HS3540, 1x TF iO-X Cruiser. E+ 1000W hybrid bike. ebikes.ca DrainBrain & Cycle Analyst meters. GoPro HD Hero2 camera. Bosch Fat Packs, 37V 10Ah LiPO pack. Turnigy Multistar batteries
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Remember LiFEPo4 HVC is 3.65V and LVC is 2.7V

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by El_Steak » Apr 07 2010 12:19pm

mikeross wrote:That is a Rock Shox Dart 2 front fork
I also wanted to get that fork but the LBS had none left and I ended up with a cheap Marzocchi fork. Its useless for any offroading but smooth and comfy on the road. I'm not convinced you need 500$+ forks on a hard-tail bike used on the road only.
mikeross wrote:I also splurged for a hydraulic front disk brake :)
Nice. Braking is pretty much your only security feature on a bike. Makes me cringe whenever I see people running 30mph+ bikes with cheap walmart V-brakes. I've even seen some run only a single V-brake in the front because their rear wheel was to off-center :shock:

If you ever want to install a rear disk brake on that frame, have a look at this thread here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=13722
TidalForce S-750 frame
Rear 2807 in a 24" wheel fed by a Methods 100V 100A controller
LiPo config: 24s3p 15ah
All the details here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=17166

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by mikeross » Apr 09 2010 11:04am

Hey, thanks everyone for the helpful hints and positive comments. Apparently these lower-end front suspension forks work well for those of us who stay on the road, but aren't good for serious off-roaders.

El-steak - your build really looks nice. You have really juiced yours up! This one is staying at 36V. The rear disk will be a nice addition, but it was too much for me right now.

ambroseliao - That is not good news about the fenders. I ride nearly every day through the Oregon winter, so the fenders are going to have to work. Can't show up to work with a skunk stripe up my back! My plan is to find some sort of rear fender that works with the battery rack, and doesn't look too bad.

ianmcnally2 - I'm glad you like your front shock! To me it is a step up from a solid fork, and didn't break the bank.

Here's a more current picture with the rear rack mounted. Also, all of the wiring from the handlebars is in place:

Image

Thanks again for the helpful hints! I would never have attempted this without the ES forum support and knowledge base!

Mike
Current bike: Tidal Force, 9C Rear Hub, Maybe a 36v 10ah Battery Pack

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by ambroseliao » Apr 09 2010 11:59am

Hey Mike,

I have the Freddy Fender 60mm rear fender installed, however it doesn't work on the front fender since my Surley Instigator fork has a very high clearance between the tire and mounting point. However, the rear worked well and is very adjustable. You will definitely need something to keep water from splashing up from the rear tire up to your battery!

I bought mine here:
http://www.rei.com/product/723105

Ambrose
http://www.ebikes.ca/ is the best!

TidalForce M-750X, Tidalforce S-750 with Crystalyte HS3540, 1x TF iO-X Cruiser. E+ 1000W hybrid bike. ebikes.ca DrainBrain & Cycle Analyst meters. GoPro HD Hero2 camera. Bosch Fat Packs, 37V 10Ah LiPO pack. Turnigy Multistar batteries
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Remember LiFEPo4 HVC is 3.65V and LVC is 2.7V

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by mikeross » Apr 26 2010 11:19am

It Lives! Well, I finally got my battery re-wiring finished and decided that it shouldn't be too hard to hook everything up. So, I grabbed a pack of wire ties, wired the controller to the rack, plugged everything in, and...it worked! :D :shock:

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The Cycle Analyst....

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I thought somebody might be interested in the BMS replacement on this battery. Here's how it looked after I replaced the stock BMS with a Signalab BMS from Ping:

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...and stuffed into the battery (a thin piece of plastic added to isolate the BMS and hold everything in place). The notches in the upper left allow the positive power line to not get pinched.

Image

The "to do" list is still pretty long - rear fender, permanent mount for the controller, hide the wires (I've got a good idea for this one), and a bunch of other things. But it sure was fun to be able to get out and ride it!

Woohoo!
Mike
Current bike: Tidal Force, 9C Rear Hub, Maybe a 36v 10ah Battery Pack

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by StudEbiker » Apr 26 2010 2:40pm

Nice work...especially on the BMS swap. Have you adjusted the amps on the controller? I am curious though why you didn't use the built in rack mounts on the TF frame for the battery rack.

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by ambroseliao » Apr 26 2010 2:47pm

I'm putting in a 72V 35A Lyen edition controller and was wondering how you planned on routing your wiring. I've used the built-in cable tunnel with good success, however, I'd love to see other ideas.

Ambrose
http://www.ebikes.ca/ is the best!

TidalForce M-750X, Tidalforce S-750 with Crystalyte HS3540, 1x TF iO-X Cruiser. E+ 1000W hybrid bike. ebikes.ca DrainBrain & Cycle Analyst meters. GoPro HD Hero2 camera. Bosch Fat Packs, 37V 10Ah LiPO pack. Turnigy Multistar batteries
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Remember LiFEPo4 HVC is 3.65V and LVC is 2.7V

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by oatnet » Apr 26 2010 3:26pm

Your build is looking great, Mike!

-JD

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by biohazardman » Apr 26 2010 4:02pm

Nice werq on the bike. I am doing a similar frame/motor build for the son-in-law.

Get creative on the fenders just find some that are wide enough and then mod or fab some sheet metal or plastic mounts for them. I found some stiff plastic Electra fenders I liked drilled a hole in the rear fender and put in a thin piece of aluminum, bent to fit the fender, on the inside to have a place to mount to the frame then used a longer SS screw and a spacer for the rear left mounting. For the front, I found a cheap reflector mount to mount on the shock and used the disk brake screw on the other side. Cut up a hose clamp and bent it into shape for a top mount. Just think about it for a while and look at the way things are done on other bikes. These work well for the mostly city and paved/packed trails I ride.

Image

Image
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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by mikeross » Apr 27 2010 1:17pm

Hey, thanks for the helpful info/hints and positive comments! Let me see if I can add anything worth knowing...
I'm putting in a 72V 35A Lyen edition controller and was wondering how you planned on routing your wiring. I've used the built-in cable tunnel with good success, however, I'd love to see other ideas.
Sorry, Ambrose, I don't have anything that spectacular in mind - with the rear motor, controller on the rear rack, there are just two (for now) wires coming from the front of the bike. Those are routed through the tunnel as you suggest. I don't have any big, honking cables to run or good ideas for you other than El-Steak's build, which I'm sure you have seen.

Have you adjusted the amps on the controller? I am curious though why you didn't use the built in rack mounts on the TF frame for the battery rack.
Hi, Stud: Haha, you guys don't miss a thing! The dang supports got in the way of the rear brake and shoved the brake shoes right up against the rim, so I ran them to the seat post figuring no one would ever notice.... I have not adjusted the amps on the controller, but I need to - this thing is not performing up to its potential --- YET!
Get creative on the fenders just find some that are wide enough and then mod or fab some sheet metal or plastic mounts for them.
Wow, biohazardman, that is a very nice looking build yourself! I ordered a rear fender off of Amazon and I'll follow your advice - which is to create something that works!

So, there's a lot more to do on my build yet, and the list keeps getting longer! For me, I was willing to tackle building the bike with frame and parts from Oatnet/JD (plus dumped a wad of $$ at the local bike shop), and tried my hand at tearing up my brand new $250+ battery and ordering a BMS and charger from Ping in China (no warranty..). But so far, I'm not up to tearing the motor apart and improving the wires, or some of the other re-wiring suggestions made by others. First, I want to get the darn thing on the road!

Thanks again - you guys are great!
Mike :mrgreen:
Current bike: Tidal Force, 9C Rear Hub, Maybe a 36v 10ah Battery Pack

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by Eric » Apr 27 2010 11:05pm

Mike,
I don't want keep harping on fenders, but, as a fellow wet weather rider, thought I would share my experience. I used a front SKS like what you have and found it completely useless above 15MPH. The front tire picks up water from the road and throws it up and forward. Problem is, there's so much room between the front tire and its fender that the thrown water ends up hitting your face and chest when traveling at speed. This was especially noticeable at night when running with a headlight which illuminates the forward flung spray hitting as you ride through it.

Last November, I mounted the Freddy Fender that Ambrose linked to using twist ties and small pieces of inner-tube to prevent slippage. It works great and keeps the tire-slung water from hitting me as I commute to work. Now if I could just figure out how to keep the rain from hitting my glasses...
Eric S.

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by mikeross » Apr 28 2010 10:52am

Eric: Thanks for the info on the front fender.. but it looks soooo cool! Dang it, maybe that can be my Summer fender. :roll: I can see that it sits pretty far off the tire and isn't real big, so probably will need to be replaced with one that provides more protection. That Freddy Fender is at the top of my list! Do you have any other tips on waterproofing the bike? That was one of the main reasons for purchasing the Headway pack from EV Components - the battery rack/pack looked pretty waterproof. When riding in the rain, I wear a big pair of safety glasses to keep the water from hitting my eyes. Have you ever tried one of those thumb wipers for motorcycle face shields?

Here's something else that's on my mind. I want to do a "Century" ride on an ebike before I turn 60. That is, 100 miles in one day. I would appreciate any ideas along those lines - design strategies for longer distance vs. high speed, route strategies (not "all downhill"), etc. I read one of Dogman's threads about long trips - he talked about keeping the speed down. It is not easy doing that - the bike wants me to keep hitting the WOT!! Of course buying $1000 worth of lithium (2 x 36V 30ah)batteries would be nice, but no budget for that!

Mike
Current bike: Tidal Force, 9C Rear Hub, Maybe a 36v 10ah Battery Pack

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by dontsendbubbamail » Apr 28 2010 7:48pm

mikeross wrote:Eric:
Here's something else that's on my mind. I want to do a "Century" ride on an ebike before I turn 60. That is, 100 miles in one day. I would appreciate any ideas along those lines - design strategies for longer distance vs. high speed, route strategies (not "all downhill"), etc. I read one of Dogman's threads about long trips - he talked about keeping the speed down. It is not easy doing that - the bike wants me to keep hitting the WOT!! Of course buying $1000 worth of lithium (2 x 36V 30ah)batteries would be nice, but no budget for that!

Mike
Here is a data point for you. I run the Turnigy 80-100 and a 12S 10ah lipo battery back. Pedaling on the flats and using the motor only on the hills, I use about 1ah per 10 miles and average about 15mph. Theoretically I could just do 100 miles in about 6.7 hours if I fully deplete the battery pack. More realistically, I would only discharge to 80% and do one recharge which takes about 1.5 hours, so total trip time would be 8.2 hours. To get an idea of the hills around my area check out a topo map of Charlotte, NC. So far my butt bone has been the limiting factor. It doesn't like me to going for more then a 40 mile ride.

Bubba

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by mikeross » Apr 29 2010 1:20pm

Hey, Bubba: Thanks for the info. Yes, I am concerned about the butt bone - and the wrist bones. My arms kind of go to sleep after riding for awhile, and wrists hurt. You are going a loooong ways on your battery! 10 miles per ah is very, very good! I need to get some more miles on my bike in order to figure out how the various factors - speed, pedaling, hills - affect this particular setup. Right now I find myself on WOT, no pedaling, and just grinning - fun, but not very efficient!

I agree with you about the 80% discharge of the battery pack - batteries are too expensive to ruin just on one discharge. Smarter to let it run down a bit then recharge - 1 1/2 hour per recharge - even if it requires two recharges for the 100 miles.

A plan begins to form - Total riding time: 6.7 hours (at 15mph). So, round to 7 hours. I don't mind getting up early, so leaving at say 7 am would give me at least 12 hours of daylight riding time. Stopping to recharge for even 4 hours (two, two hour stops?) would also give the old butt bone a chance to rest plus some extra time "just in case". Hmmmm.....

Thanks for your input! I can do this!
Mike
Current bike: Tidal Force, 9C Rear Hub, Maybe a 36v 10ah Battery Pack

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by StudEbiker » Apr 29 2010 2:52pm

Mike, if you think you are going to get 10mi/per ah from that 9C I think you are going to be very disappointed. You might as well ride a normal bike a hundred miles....your going to be pedaling about the same amount and have a MUCH lighter bike.

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by mikeross » Apr 29 2010 5:06pm

Mike, if you think you are going to get 10mi/per ah from that 9C I think you are going to be very disappointed.
Hi, Stud: If it happens (10 mi/ah) nobody would be more surprised than me! Bubba seems to have a very efficient bike and he pedals a lot, too, so he can go a long way on his battery. It has certainly got me thinking about riding style and how that affects riding range. Dogman was saying that about 13 mph is optimum - oh, how long could a guy go at that speed? For long distance, I'm going to have to slow down and be more judicious with the throttle.

Do you have enough miles on your bike yet to get a feel for it's miles/ah? (or is that ah/mile?? :) ) Up here near Salem it has been raining, blowing and cold. Not good weather for a bike with a questionable front fender and no rear fender at all!

Mike
Current bike: Tidal Force, 9C Rear Hub, Maybe a 36v 10ah Battery Pack

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by StudEbiker » Apr 29 2010 7:27pm

I think most people on here express it in terms of wh/mi and the best I've done is 12 wh/mi (on an 9 mile ride.) It has been reported that these packs like ours are about 9.2ah so that means a little over 331wh, so if I could maintain 12wh/mi that would give me about 27 miles, but that seems pretty optimistic to me. Cold wet and dreary in Ashland all week...so no riding right now.

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by mikeross » May 13 2010 3:09pm

Just an update - been spending a LOT of time working on the Headway battery pack. First use of the pack, got about 7 ah and the pack shut off (not sure if the BMS or CA). Recharged the pack for about 8 hours. Rode for about 1.5 miles - cut out. Pedaled home - put battery on charger again - 4 hours. The whole system was totally dead - the CA would not even light up.

Important pieces: Headway 12s 36v. Signalab BMS to replace the original Headway BMS. 5a charger from Ping.

After double checking all connectors and all wiring, and reading a bunch of posts here on ES: Placed the battery back on the charger for ANOTHER 8 hours - battery went from 37.2V to right at 40V. System now functions - CA lights up and motor kicks in if the throttle is "blipped". One cell was down to about 2.7V and has *slooowwwlllyyy* worked its way up to match the rest of the cells at around 3.3 - 3.4V.

What is going on?? I bought an individual cell charger, but some of the cells in this EVComponents pack are seriously impossible to get at without major ripping and tearing up of the pack (which I'm hoping to avoid).

I'm thinking that the voltage of this pack, fully charged, should be closer to 42V (or around 3.5V per cell). It's back on the charger today, so perhaps it will continue to rise. My hope is that this is caused by the new pack, with one cell out of balance and the charger just taking forever to get this pack balanced. Who wants a pack that takes more than 24 hours to charge!
Current bike: Tidal Force, 9C Rear Hub, Maybe a 36v 10ah Battery Pack

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by drewdiller » May 13 2010 6:02pm

mikeross, I feel you. I recently fixed my Headway pack, and I just _happened_ to buy the same replacement Signalab BMS from batteryspace.com.

It was after installing the new BMS and still getting crap mileage from the pack that I opened it a second time and bought a multimeter...

For you, does it happen to be cell #7 in series (it was at 2.4V for me while others were at 3.4V)? After I read the diagram, it occurred to me that the wiring on that cell was a bit out of order, though I can't recall exactly how anymore.

I was lucky in that cell #7 was exposed simply by separating the battery box halves, and nothing more. I took to it with a single cell charger and then left the pack on the charger for two frocking days just to be sure. It now comes off the charger measuring 44V for a moment, and quickly settles down to 43.6V.

Frustrating, but I learned a lot in a trial by fire kinda way. If you go to evcomponents.com, notice that they just sell the cells now (and with screw-on poles!). Smart move IMO, as they weren't getting balanced packs directly from Headway.

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Re: Tidal Force S-750 Build by mikeross

Post by Crimson Head » May 14 2010 8:02am

Nice build mikeross! The Tidal Force is so sweet. Great work on the battery by the way.
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