Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

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hopbot   100 mW

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by hopbot » Jun 30 2008 10:11am

hey there all, so the last few weeks of steady riding into work i've noticed some wear on the front freewheel. the one that cyclone sent seems pretty low quality and it was super wobbly after maybe 120 miles of riding - i could see the ball bearings! i spotted this post by timbits and decided to follow his setup. i got the parts last week and embarked on the drilling and fitting this weekend. i am about to ride into work in about 30 minutes, so hopefully it all stays together ;)

this is mostly copied from timbit's post, i added some extra pics of my final setup:
1. started with the eno 22t freewheel
Image

2. i used the chainring adapter recommended by timbits
Image

3. i used a 44t chainring (to match the cyclone one i had)
Image

4. i made a jig for drilling the center hole out of the chainring adapter
i followed timbits' instructions and used a 2 1/8" hole saw, then used a dremel tool to file it further until i had the 56mm opening to fit the eno freewheel through.
Image

5. once the the freewheel fit, i drilled some holes to bold the freewheel to the adapter
Image

6. Finally, i put it all together
Image
Image
Image


The chainline moved closer to the bike as a result so i had to shift the motor to the left a bit to deal with it. it still left enough clearance for the crank arm on the left rotate freely so i was happy ;)

the next phase will be the nuvinci hub install, still waiting for it to arrive. i will probably get the local bike shop to lace it into a rim for me. thanks timbits for the great tip! i wouldnt have thought i could pull it off, but you made it seem doable!
2007 Dahon Matrix - Cyclone 500w - 17Ah 24V LiFePO4

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deecanio   10 MW

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by deecanio » Jun 30 2008 10:27am

thats a real nice piece of work there - hope it runs well,let us know :)


Cheers

D
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hopbot   100 mW

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by hopbot » Jun 30 2008 11:33am

@deecanio: thanks man! i've been admiring your build for a while ;)
2007 Dahon Matrix - Cyclone 500w - 17Ah 24V LiFePO4

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hopbot   100 mW

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by hopbot » Jun 30 2008 1:23pm

well, i made it to work ok! seems to work well, it's sooooo nice to have a solid freewheel now after riding with the worn out cyclone one for so long. definitely feels solid.
2007 Dahon Matrix - Cyclone 500w - 17Ah 24V LiFePO4

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deecanio   10 MW

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by deecanio » Jul 02 2008 2:11pm

nice work hopbot :)

thanks for posting it up - it's given me some ideas for gearing myself having the single speed problem.
the thing i like best about that work is the nice clean execution - it looks purpose built, nice 8)


Cheers

D
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hopbot   100 mW

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by hopbot » Jul 02 2008 4:48pm

@deecanio: thanks again for the compliments, couldnt have done it without timbits awesome post outlining it all ;)

just received the nuvinci hub yesterday, so the next phase of the project is about to begin.... ;)
2007 Dahon Matrix - Cyclone 500w - 17Ah 24V LiFePO4

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The7   10 kW

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by The7 » Jul 03 2008 12:24pm

hopbot wrote:@deecanio: thanks again for the compliments, couldnt have done it without timbits awesome post outlining it all ;)

just received the nuvinci hub yesterday, so the next phase of the project is about to begin.... ;)
The rotating direction of your drive motor is opposite that of timbits !?

Which design is better?

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hopbot   100 mW

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by hopbot » Jul 03 2008 12:33pm

hey there The7, good question. i followed the Cyclone instructions so while i cant say the arrangement i have is better, that is what is recommended by Cyclone. i like timbits' setup a lot, especially since it seems the motor can be slightly closer to the chainwheel and that gives a tad more clearance. other than that, i'm not sure.

it does seem like the stock cyclone setup results in less chain contact withthe motor gear, not sure how that affects things.
2007 Dahon Matrix - Cyclone 500w - 17Ah 24V LiFePO4

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timbits   1 mW

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by timbits » Jul 03 2008 2:42pm

The7 wrote:
hopbot wrote:@deecanio: thanks again for the compliments, couldnt have done it without timbits awesome post outlining it all ;)

just received the nuvinci hub yesterday, so the next phase of the project is about to begin.... ;)
The rotating direction of your drive motor is opposite that of timbits !?

Which design is better?
I have used motors with both rotating directions. Performance wise, I can't tell any difference.

There are a few things I like about the 650 watt rotating direction. With the chain guide mounted on the upper mounting bracket bolts there is more clearance under the motor and one thing less to bash or bend if you hit something. A more important issue ( IMO) is regarding the clockwise rotating freewheel on the motor output shaft. This is the “ normal” direction most freewheels rotate. I believe the original stock cyclone 14t freewheel is the smaller metric bmx type and are CCW rotation. The 650 Watt motor Paco sent me included a 15t CW rotation freewheel to match the reversed rotation of the new motor compared to the original 360 watt I had been using. I have plans to get a freewheel adapter ( http://www.staton-inc.com/default.asp , search for freewheel, lots of choices.) and mount a 16t eno freewheel to replace the 15t that came with the 650 watt motor. Should fit as far as I can tell after having the adapters center hole enlarged to match the cyclone shaft size. The eno freewheel is quite a bit more robust than the stock cyclone unit and should last longer. I am a big fan of using standard size parts whenever possible

Hi Hopbot
Your setup looks great. Thanks for the kind words.!
Do keep us informed on the nuvinci hub
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hopbot   100 mW

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by hopbot » Jul 03 2008 3:22pm

thanks for the great info timbits! yeah, i love knowing the parts i am using are now standard (the chainring and freewheel). i would love to take this step with the motor soon
2007 Dahon Matrix - Cyclone 500w - 17Ah 24V LiFePO4

tropmonky   10 W

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by tropmonky » Jul 08 2008 6:15pm

OMG am I glad to have found this forum! I have been in the Vsiforvoltage.org forum without much luck.

"I like the motor location (in front) as opposed to the Cyclone.

I would like to build an Ebike with a Crank drive so the motor takes advantage of the gears and use a SRAM 9 speed (or maybe a Rohlof or Nuvinci) rear hub and get rid of the derailers altogether.

I'm not sure how best to do it. I don't like the Cyclone because:
1. I'm not sure it can be geared properly in relation to rider cadence. Optibike says with a Pedal Cadence of 80 the motor will be in or near its optimum range.

2. I don't think the quality of the Cyclone Components is very good.

3. I don't like the motor location below the crank."


This is EXACTLY what I've come to think as the perfect setup.... Till now I haven't been able to find anything else with this info...

I'd like to start working on putting together such a setup but there are a few things that seem to suck (cost too dang much for me). The Freewheel crank setups taken off tandem bikes are really expensive, at least the ones I've found. If someone has a inexpensive alternative please let me know.

Motors.. Does anyone know of a location to get a good brushless motor 500-1000w? It's easy to find controllers, but the motor seems to be a hard one to pinpoint. Then there is the question of gear reduction, what might be needed and what will work?

Then the LifePO4 batts need to come down in price and all would be well... LOL. Anyhow, I'd like to keep this discussion going!

Kyle

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hopbot   100 mW

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by hopbot » Oct 07 2008 1:39am

Hey there all! ok, so i finally (FINALLY) got some time to get the Nuvinci hub integrated into my setup. it took a long while because:
  • not much time to mess in the garage in the last few months
  • i got the wrong rim for the hub (wrong number of holes, wish i had bought the pre-built combo)
  • had too large of a rear freewheel installed and it couldn't be removed without the special Nuvinci-made tool which was unavailable online ANYWHERE (had to call Nuvinci and they helped me out)
So i had the local bike shop lace the hub into a wheel and asked them to put a 22 tooth freewheel on it. turns out that wasnt the best choice as i really lost my top end and the low end was so low i felt like i could climb a wall with the bike! the gear ratio is crazy on this thing! i did some really rudimentary calculations and figured i needed a 17t freewheel on the back to get back to my 30mph on some of the roads to work. i discovered at that point that i could not remove the freewheel since the hub itself will free spin in the direction you need to turn to remove the freewheel. i found on some boards that Nuvinci made a special tool to remove standard freewheels from the hub, but no place online sells it - all links to it were broken. i finally called support at Nuvinci and they were great - they fed-exed me the tool and i paid them via paypal ($75 bucks! its a specialty tool ;) )

here are some shots of the hub after i finally got the bike shop guys to help my remove the freewheel with Nuvinci's own Freewheel Removal Tool (it was really stuck on there!)
Image

here's what the tool(s) look like from Nuvinci
Image Image Image

the inner portion has splines which hold the hub from free spinning, then the outer bar fits over the top of the inner part and has the standard freewheel notches on it. pretty precise and it worked like a charm at the bike shop!

I got the puppy installed - once you remove the rear derailleur assembly, the hub installs with the included vertical drop out adapters (it was originally designed for horizontal drop outs).
Image

i used a really nice chain tensioner from Sette to reduce the chain slack. ideally i need to get a half link in there but havent had time to go back to the bike shop
Image Image
Image

The original plastic Cyclone chain guard got mangled in a chain skipping incident a few weeks before, so i installed a really nice Salsa chain guard. i wanted 2 (one on the inside and one on the outside) to guarantee the chain staying on, but i didnt have enough room on the inside and now with the Nuvinci hub, there isnt much need for it.

well, that's it! i'm glad to have finally arrived at this point in the project. The hub is really amazing overall, really changes the ride and i'm not so scared about the chain jumping off the chainring or breaking anymore!

some things i've learned about the Nuvinci hub:
  • The hub has an impressive "gear" range (350% i think) and so you need to find the right freewheel and chainring to get something that feels comfortable - to me that meant matching what i had on my traditional cassette setup
  • after installing the actual shifter on the handle bars and cutting the cables, and installing the rear assembly, be aware that after some usage it will loosen up and you may need to do some more trimming. i've done it once and i feel the cables have stretched again
  • i really miss not having my notched gear shifter - i know that the continuously variable aspect is the whole point with the Nuvinci hub - but it's harder to shift without checking the shifter gauge when you dont have any tactile feedback about how many "clicks" up or down you have shifted
  • the shifting is a bit tricky: while i could easily shift my traditional gear setup through all 8 gears in a relatively short motion, the Nuvinci shifter actually has to go through what feels like at least 2 revolutions (whole twists) to get the full range of gears. this is really hard to get used to and not really desirable for me - Nuvinici, can you improve this?
  • there is some strangeness to the shifting, and i imagine it has something to do with the angle of the balls inside the hub: in the lower gears, i have to twist the shifter quite a bit to get to a moderate cadence. in the higher level gears, there is one very delicate spot where i need to twist very gently or i go from moderate pedaling to having to stand up and work! not ideal at all! i've had to really learn where this spot in the shifting!
  • now the chain is quieter and smoother and i dont need to worry about it hopping off! the chain line is really ideal now and i could remove the extra idler wheels i had installed before - the last few rides i had before the nuvinci were nerve wracking for me since i had the chain fall off a couple of times (i hate going to work with greasy hands!) and at one point this mangled my (plastic) chain guard.
  • i've had to re-learn my e-bike riding style now with the Nuvinci since the shifting does feel so much different (more twisting needed, can shift at a stand still).
it's not perfect, but i'm pretty happy so far.
2007 Dahon Matrix - Cyclone 500w - 17Ah 24V LiFePO4

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by MitchJi » Oct 14 2008 8:14pm

hopbot wrote:Hey there all! ok, so i finally (FINALLY) got some time to get the Nuvinci hub integrated into my setup. it took a long while because:

well, that's it! i'm glad to have finally arrived at this point in the project. The hub is really amazing overall, really changes the ride and i'm not so scared about the chain jumping off the chainring or breaking anymore!

some things i've learned about the Nuvinci hub:
  • i really miss not having my notched gear shifter - i know that the continuously variable aspect is the whole point with the Nuvinci hub - but it's harder to shift without checking the shifter gauge when you dont have any tactile feedback about how many "clicks" up or down you have shifted
  • the shifting is a bit tricky: while i could easily shift my traditional gear setup through all 8 gears in a relatively short motion, the Nuvinci shifter actually has to go through what feels like at least 2 revolutions (whole twists) to get the full range of gears. this is really hard to get used to and not really desirable for me - Nuvinici, can you improve this?
  • there is some strangeness to the shifting, and i imagine it has something to do with the angle of the balls inside the hub: in the lower gears, i have to twist the shifter quite a bit to get to a moderate cadence. in the higher level gears, there is one very delicate spot where i need to twist very gently or i go from moderate pedaling to having to stand up and work! not ideal at all! i've had to really learn where this spot in the shifting!
Hi,

You might want to check their LEV Kit:
http://www.fallbrooktech.com/09_Lev_Kit.asp
Manual or automatic control

Electronic Shift Actuator with integrated Position Encoder

Create custom shift maps and download to your vehicle through the NuVinci PC application software
They told me with this Kit that the hub shifts easily under power . This LEV kit (might require a new hub, I didn't check) sounds compelling. Even if the only benefits are manual smooth shifting under power using custom shift maps it might be really nice. If the automatic works well that would be sweet.
Best Wishes!

Mitch


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Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here

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hopbot   100 mW

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by hopbot » Oct 16 2008 1:21am

cool info, thanks mitch! it will be a while before i go further with this (money!), but this definitely sounds neat. i havent read about anyone using one yet. is it available?
2007 Dahon Matrix - Cyclone 500w - 17Ah 24V LiFePO4

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by MitchJi » Oct 19 2008 4:44pm

hopbot wrote:cool info, thanks mitch! it will be a while before i go further with this (money!), but this definitely sounds neat. i havent read about anyone using one yet. is it available?
Hi,

I'm not sure if its available now or not but I think not.

Maybe a Nexus 8 Speed or SRAM 9 speed would resolve most of your complaints about the Nuvinci. Good comparison article here (Nuvinci, SRAM, Nexus, Rohloff):
http://www.velovision.com/mag/issue29/vv29hubgears.pdf
Best Wishes!

Mitch


The best quality batteries and lowest priced batteries for DIY EV's are tier 1 OEM Quality Cells from salvaged (wrecked) EV packs. Three examples are Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model 3 packs.

Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here

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hopbot   100 mW

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by hopbot » Oct 20 2008 10:24am

wow, great info mitch! thanks a ton!
2007 Dahon Matrix - Cyclone 500w - 17Ah 24V LiFePO4

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by MitchJi » Oct 21 2008 3:49pm

Hi,

Nexus power handling info:
Gary posted this:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... kes#p79741
I'm sure the Nexus hubs can handle the power. There's a guy with a bike shop down in San Diego (Rusty Spokes, in Pacific Beach...) who custom builds chopper-style motor bikes, using Etek and Mars motors. He uses these same Nexus 3-speed hubs with these beasts, and they have worked flawlessly, even pumping 15 hp through them. Instead of chain, hoever, his bikes are belt driven, using regular toothless v-belts. There's a little bit of "slippage" when starting out, which is like a clutch. Works great, he says, and these things can hit close to 60 in just 2nd gear. Anyway, he's never had a single problem with any of the Nexus hubs.
I emailed him, quoting Gary above. The following are my questions with his replies. He didn't actually answer my question but it sounds like he has used 7 speeds without problems and believes the 8 speeds are just as strong:
Do you know if the Nexus 8 speeds are strong enough to handle 2kw or 4kw peak?

more like 68.8 mph in 1st gear.

Thanks for taking the time to answer but I'm not sure I understand your reply. Does
"more like 68.8 mph in 1st gear" mean the 8 speed is strong enough?


i have only tried 3s and 7s , but im sure it is the same...
The first reply didn't address my question at all but corrected the speed in Gary's post (I guess he considered "close to 60 mph in first gear" an insult :lol: ).
Best Wishes!

Mitch


The best quality batteries and lowest priced batteries for DIY EV's are tier 1 OEM Quality Cells from salvaged (wrecked) EV packs. Three examples are Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model 3 packs.

Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here

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Re: Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

Post by GGoodrum » Oct 21 2008 4:21pm

Yep, that's the guy. I think his name is Dave. Next time I'm down there I really need to take some pictures of some of his machines. His "everyday" ride is an Etek powered version, with a 36V setup using three 12V/50Ah SLAs. He doesn't ride it to and from work so much, as he lives 11 miles away, and the range he gets with the SLAs is about 10 miles. This beast is crying for a big steamy pile of LiFePO4. :mrgreen:

Last time I talked to him, he was about ready to take a trip to China, to work out the final details to get one of his chopper-style cruiser bikes manufactured over there. I'm definitely going to be doing an electric version of one of these, at some point.

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