E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Show off your E-bike creation here.
User avatar
Kepler   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3193
Joined: Nov 08 2009 9:22pm
Location: Eastern suburbs Melbourne Australia

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by Kepler » Aug 01 2015 5:53am

So you rode the bike with stripped axle nuts and flogged out dropouts on rough tracks and used regen? Seriously?

I understand you are pissed off but in all honesty, the weak link is not with the design, but how the bike is maintained. If the dropouts and torque blocks are flogged out after 4 years, then you replace them or repair them.

Stealth bikes are designed to operate without a derailleur and as such need a slotted dropout with a sliding adjustment mechanism to tension the chain. This makes it difficult incorporate a clamping design. However, as long as the clamping block is adjusted correctly and the nuts correctly torqued, nothing will come loose. This has been proven by the fact that the issue of loosening axle nuts under regen is hardy heard of anymore since the introduction of the clamping blocks.
Current Rides

Lightest true ebike on the planet: ON ROAD viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74269
eBoost on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eboost/200306283342024/

User avatar
Cowardlyduck   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2619
Joined: Jun 26 2011 8:41pm
Location: Canberra, ACT, Australia

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by Cowardlyduck » Aug 01 2015 6:23am

The only reason the axle was stripped was because of the bad design. The only reason the drop-outs were 'flogged' was because of the bad design.
Yeah I probably shouldn't have used Regen knowing the state of the axle, and admitted as much already.

I'm not the only one who has had problems with the dropouts and the small axles.

John what would you suggest is done differently to 'maintain' this part of the bike? I would be interested to see photo's of the condition of any other Fighters drop-outs that has over 10000km over 4 years like mine.

If the drop-out design is so splendid, why does it need the clamping block added?

Are there any other E-Bikes that have this same dropout design? I haven't seen any?

Cheers
Custom made 18650/21700 battery packs

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled motor @ 6KW, Adaptto Mini-E. 49AH, 52V 18650 - 2.5Kwhr
Cowardlyducks - Stealth Fighter Videos

BikeE recumbent commuter - 9C, 6Fet Grinfineon, internal 17AH, 52V, + on-board solar.

Ebike Garage - My YouTube Ebike ramblings.

High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

User avatar
Kepler   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3193
Joined: Nov 08 2009 9:22pm
Location: Eastern suburbs Melbourne Australia

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by Kepler » Aug 01 2015 7:05am

10000 km is a lot of riding. I think in your case your dropouts started to flog out before the the torque blocks were introduced so I imagine it's a bit of an a cumulative situation. It was the regen feature that highlighted the need for torque blocks. Also tolerances on the torque arms were tightened up to cope with the extra load. Just part of the bikes evolution.

In regards to what I would have done in relation to maintenance, I would have simply repaired or replaced the worn parts before they became problematic. I had my swing arm checked and re powder coated just because some of the coating had cracked off in places and I wanted to make sure there were no underlying problems.
Last edited by Kepler on Aug 01 2015 8:07am, edited 1 time in total.
Current Rides

Lightest true ebike on the planet: ON ROAD viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74269
eBoost on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eboost/200306283342024/

litespeed   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1367
Joined: Aug 11 2010 4:42pm
Location: St. Peters, Missouri

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by litespeed » Aug 01 2015 7:54am

I do not have a stealth but on my Giant DH Team with Doc's torque arms the axle of my 4065 was slightly loose so I used a sacrificial feeler gauge set and stuffed the largest size I could to remove the slop. I cut a piece off and put it in there and never got a bit of slop up until my son broke one side of the axle and the other side spun from the cheesy cheap metal the axles were made from.

Just an idea of what you could use to tighten up tolerances if need be.

For the record though, clamping drop outs are the shit!

Tom
I'm married so you know I'm no stranger to pain!

User avatar
Rix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 6647
Joined: Mar 29 2012 11:26am
Location: Fallon NV USA

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by Rix » Aug 01 2015 1:47pm

Cowardlyduck wrote:The only reason the axle was stripped was because of the bad design. The only reason the drop-outs were 'flogged' was because of the bad design.
Yeah I probably shouldn't have used Regen knowing the state of the axle, and admitted as much already.

I'm not the only one who has had problems with the dropouts and the small axles.

John what would you suggest is done differently to 'maintain' this part of the bike? I would be interested to see photo's of the condition of any other Fighters drop-outs that has over 10000km over 4 years like mine.

If the drop-out design is so splendid, why does it need the clamping block added?

Are there any other E-Bikes that have this same dropout design? I haven't seen any?

Cheers
CD, not trying to pick an online argument here, but my Bomber that my dad is currently riding has over 10,000 total miles on that swingarm and about 6000 miles with the current 5404. Not one single problem has me or my dad had with this design. Granted, we don't use the regen braking as we both have also experience axle nuts loosening due to the minute play there is in the torque block and drop spacing during regen braking. But I can also tell you that regen braking has also loosend up clamping dropouts on one of the DIY bikes to the point where the rider stripped out the clamping block trying to tighten that thing down. Point is, a little mechanical sympathy and riding style adjustment is needed for trouble free operation. With exception of Mexican Batman, I haven't seen anyone as heavy as I am riding these machines over the type of crap I ride. I haven't had 1/10th the issues you have. Here is how we solve your axle problems. First, get a new axle. Use a torque wrench and don't exceed 45nm on your axle nuts. Always tighten the disk brake side axle nut first. When you tighten the disk brake side first, you rock the axle in the direction that it wants to move/rotate under power thus eliminating any freeplay between the axle flat, dropout, and torque block when you get on the throttle. And quite using regen. In fact disconnect the button. Just cause its there, it doesn't mean you got to use it. After your first ride, recheck your torque on the axle nuts. They will have loosned slightly so bring them back up to 45nm. Then as long as you don't use regen, they will not come loose and take a set until you remove the wheel. Before you say "I should be allowed to use regen because it came that way" Look at this way, just because my truck redlines at 6000 RPM, it doesn't mean I have to rev it to the limit and drive around in 1st gear when I can shift to 4th gear and do it at 1800 rpm driving around. If I did that, If I left it in 1st, my gas mileage would sink like the Titanic and I would blow the motor eventually. Like I said, not trying to argue with you, but your axle loosening problems can be resolved.
Last edited by Rix on Aug 01 2015 4:59pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
fsmuggen   10 W

10 W
Posts: 81
Joined: Jan 07 2014 11:15am

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by fsmuggen » Aug 01 2015 4:13pm

Rix way is the best way I think.
I've had more than 15000km on my fighter, not on the same hub though, but never had any problems with the axel nuts or threads. I check axel nuts/bolts, caliperbolts before every ride.
Torque check is something I do mabe once a month depending how much I ride the bike. Stupid to risk the hubmotor falling off at high speeds.
If it falls off..., it might be the one and only time...

1abv   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 483
Joined: Mar 29 2013 11:19pm

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by 1abv » Aug 01 2015 11:08pm

I've not done as many miles on my unit as you fellas but someone once posted clean your bike often.. As you are cleaning you will come across things that are loose or need repair. Perhaps in your case check the torque specs after every ride. I use regen but only on paved downhills never in dirt. There are so many forces at work on that rear wheel that hitting regen in dirt would hop the rear all over creation… gud luck dewd…And nice road side repair! I'm officially adding a big ass wrench to my backpack tool kit….

User avatar
remf   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 627
Joined: Apr 29 2011 7:57pm
Location: NSW Australia

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by remf » Aug 01 2015 11:15pm

CD haven’t you modified your Fighter massively including adding an Adaptto controller, high voltage pack and a derailleur? The Adaptto & high voltage alone could be the reason for your issues. More power, more powerful regen. With such a powerful bike, you need to pay even closer attention to proper maintenance. How long have you had your bike? 4 years or more? That’s considerable wear & tear with such power over that timeframe. Also I don’t think regen was available then…did you install it yourself? You certainly seem to be having a LOT of issues especially with axle stripping. I haven’t had that issue since the installation of the torque clamp and have always tightened brake side first with 45 Nm as Rick says.

With the greatest respect, apart from the huge mods, this suggests that maybe you’re doing something wrong. I hardly ever have to think about making any adjustments but I still do a preflight before every ride. Very puzzling that you’ve had this many problems. I really don’t believe this has anything to do with design. If it is a design issue then why does it seem to be just your bike? I’ve never seen or heard of a wheel falling off before and can’t see how you can, in all seriousness, blame Stealth.

1abv   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 483
Joined: Mar 29 2013 11:19pm

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by 1abv » Aug 01 2015 11:35pm

By the way for anyone else… I don't check the axles after ever ride. (I probably should) Maybe maybe once every 2 weeks riding off-road daily. Call me a slacker.. Anytime I take off any nylock nut I replace it with a new one. Since the last time I've had the rear wheel off which was at least 4 months ago it has not loosened one bit.
Maybe I got lucky w mine….

On another note I've always had issues with the side cover bolts coming loose and have to check those after ever ride if not in the middle of one.. Got some clear silicone, chucked a small dab on each bolt and they haven't moved since. I didn't want to use thread locker because I didn't want to be in a situation where the threads inside would spin loose.

User avatar
Rix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 6647
Joined: Mar 29 2012 11:26am
Location: Fallon NV USA

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by Rix » Aug 02 2015 1:20am

Cowardlyduck wrote:[quote="So I decided although the red brake goo helped stop axle rotation, and prevent the nuts coming loose, it was a bit messy and I want a more permanent solution.

This time I'm going to try making the axle and torque block fittings much more snug with some heat shrink. The pics should explain it enough.

Image
Image
Image

Just quickly tested for a couple of K's and it seems to be working. Only time will truly tell, as it did with the red stuff. Will report back in a few hundred more kms with how it went. :)

Cheers
[/quote]

CD, I was waiting for you to report back on this, did this not work or what? I was hoping the heat shrink would have worked. :?

User avatar
Hyena   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5628
Joined: Aug 13 2008 9:10am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by Hyena » Aug 02 2015 5:32am

Yeah I'm with the others here CD.
Regen is well documented to be hard on axles and loosen nuts if not properly checked and tensioned and you set out knowing yours was damaged and used it anyway. If it ripped off the bike like that it was either so badly damaged you shouldn't have even considered taking it out and/or you would have felt it clunking and rocking around prior to that. I've had nuts come loose mid-ride and when you feel that first clunk of the axle shifting that's your signal to not use regen again until you get home and tighten the nuts up.
Also as remf said your bike is far from standard so it's additionally unreasonable to blame stealth for the failures. You're using a much more powerful controller and battery pushing almost double the power the bike was originally designed to take. Not that I can preach, I was one of the first people around with a hacked fighter (same vintage as yours) and running even more power again but I always knew that if anything failed it was totally on me. Incidentally, nothing ever did fail even when I had it set up running 9000w and heavy motorcycle rims and tyres with speeds topping out at 100km/hr. I had a heap of broken spokes that gave in to the torque of the brutal acceleration and regen, buckled rims from plowing through rough terrain too hard and multiple crashes - but never any issues with the dropouts. More recently Alex had his old bomber up to 12kw safely on the stock frame and there are others around on this thread (who's names escape me at the moment) running higher power without failure too. Not that stealth encourage or support this.

So yeah, I think blaming stealth is a bit rich...
Rix wrote:CD, I was waiting for you to report back on this, did this not work or what? I was hoping the heat shrink would have worked
Rix, you've made alot of helpful posts for stealth owners and other ES members, especially with your wealth of experience on motorcycle rim conversions. But I think this post is your finest ES contribution to date :mrgreen:
www.HyenaElectricBikes.com
Aussie high powered e-bike kits and custom performance ebikes
New FUTR and Hyena special edition Beta frames now available!
My build and HD video thread____. My youtube channel____ Hyena Facebook page
My bike is writing cheques my body can't cash...

User avatar
Cowardlyduck   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2619
Joined: Jun 26 2011 8:41pm
Location: Canberra, ACT, Australia

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by Cowardlyduck » Aug 02 2015 6:42am

Well, it seems I've hit a nerve or something with my previous comments. I was pretty pissed off at the whole situation yesterday so may have pointed the blame finger too harshly in Stealth's direction. I apologise if it seemed like I was twisting the truth at all.
It is still my opinion however that the design leaves a lot to be desired. I do also recognise that my situation is far from perfect and I have made a few mistakes myself along the way. Mainly that's over-tightening the axle nuts...it was the quick and 'easy' solution to the rotation issue...but clearly a mistake.
Kepler wrote:I think in your case your dropouts started to flog out before the the torque blocks were introduced so I imagine it's a bit of an a cumulative situation. It was the regen feature that highlighted the need for torque blocks. Also tolerances on the torque arms were tightened up to cope with the extra load. Just part of the bikes evolution.
In regards to what I would have done in relation to maintenance, I would have simply repaired or replaced the worn parts before they became problematic. I had my swing arm checked and re powder coated just because some of the coating had cracked off in places and I wanted to make sure there were no underlying problems.
Yes, my drop-outs were flogged out before the axle clamping blocks were added. The thing is before that point in time (2012-2013), that 'flogging' occurred because the bike was used as supplied by Stealth in stock form. My Fighter (#66) was supplied with Regen from the outset...one of the first. I vaguely recall being told by Stealth (John K) that Regen was a feature they had been testing for some time prior to that point and only decided to introduce it after they were confident they would not see any issues with axle rotation. I lost count of the number of people reporting axle rotation issues on this thread because of Regen.
Yes the addition of the axle clamps helped, but in my case (and others I recall) it did not eliminate the problem. When I first reported my issues to Stealth (back in 2012) I was sent the newer (at the time) 'tighter tolerance' torque blocks. Again...didn't eliminate the problem for me. Then after complaining about it E-S member sent me some custom made aluminium axle clamps. That also helped, and even stopped it for a time, but not for ever...then Stealth started supplying axle clamps as well, so I got one of them...again seemed to help, but didn't eliminate the problem.

If I lived next door to Stealth like you John I probably would have had the parts checked and re-powdercoated, but most Stealth owners aren't in that situation and have to make do.
litespeed wrote:I cut a piece off and put it in there and never got a bit of slop up until my son broke one side of the axle and the other side spun from the cheesy cheap metal the axles were made from.
Just an idea of what you could use to tighten up tolerances if need be.
For the record though, clamping drop outs are the shit!
Thanks Tom! Appreciate the helpful comment. :)
Slipping something into the gap is one of the few things I haven't tried yet. How did you manage to squeeze it in there? I can't see how I could get anything in there...I can't even see a gap!
Rix wrote:CD, not trying to pick an online argument here, but my Bomber that my dad is currently riding has over 10,000 total miles on that swingarm and about 6000 miles with the current 5404. Not one single problem has me or my dad had with this design. Granted, we don't use the regen braking as we both have also experience axle nuts loosening due to the minute play there is in the torque block and drop spacing during regen braking. But I can also tell you that regen braking has also loosend up clamping dropouts on one of the DIY bikes to the point where the rider stripped out the clamping block trying to tighten that thing down. Point is, a little mechanical sympathy and riding style adjustment is needed for trouble free operation. With exception of Mexican Batman, I haven't seen anyone as heavy as I am riding these machines over the type of crap I ride. I haven't had 1/10th the issues you have. Here is how we solve your axle problems. First, get a new axle. Use a torque wrench and don't exceed 45nm on your axle nuts. Always tighten the disk brake side axle nut first. When you tighten the disk brake side first, you rock the axle in the direction that it wants to move/rotate under power thus eliminating any freeplay between the axle flat, dropout, and torque block when you get on the throttle. And quite using regen. In fact disconnect the button. Just cause its there, it doesn't mean you got to use it. After your first ride, recheck your torque on the axle nuts. They will have loosned slightly so bring them back up to 45nm. Then as long as you don't use regen, they will not come loose and take a set until you remove the wheel. Before you say "I should be allowed to use regen because it came that way" Look at this way, just because my truck redlines at 6000 RPM, it doesn't mean I have to rev it to the limit and drive around in 1st gear when I can shift to 4th gear and do it at 1800 rpm driving around. If I did that, If I left it in 1st, my gas mileage would sink like the Titanic and I would blow the motor eventually. Like I said, not trying to argue with you, but your axle loosening problems can be resolved.
Rix, I think your situation doesn't really apply to me as for one your high mileage is on your Bomber...which is a Bomber...not a Fighter, so the axle diameter is different. I believe the small axle on the HS40xx motors is one of the key contributing factors into all these issues. There just isn't enough meat on the things for the design used on the Fighters drop-outs if Regen is going to be used IMO. A correct design would factor in the small axle of the HS40xx motors or use a different axle.
Also, you say you don't use Regen on either bike...I think if I hadn't used Regen I wouldn't have half the issues I'm now seeing, but that's not the point...these bikes were marketed, and sold with Regen...the design should also allow it. For me Regen is essential, both for the extra range it gives and the great braking effect...I will do everything I can to keep it as an option.
1abv wrote:gud luck dewd…And nice road side repair! I'm officially adding a big ass wrench to my backpack tool kit….
LOL at least I have had that benefit in posting. :lol:
I've been carrying a small spanner big enough for the 1/2" nuts for some time now. I'm so glad I did on this occasion or we wouldn't have been able to loosen off the nuts to get the wheel back on.
I'm also glad I had that tape and some zip ties...when the wheel fell off it popped off all the zip ties holding the cable on, so we had to secure it back on afterwards, although I didn't have enough zip ties to do the job...hence the tape.
remf wrote:CD haven’t you modified your Fighter massively including adding an Adaptto controller, high voltage pack and a derailleur? The Adaptto & high voltage alone could be the reason for your issues. More power, more powerful regen. With such a powerful bike, you need to pay even closer attention to proper maintenance. How long have you had your bike? 4 years or more? That’s considerable wear & tear with such power over that timeframe.
I can see why you would be confused remf...I'm chopping and changing my set-up a lot lately. My Adaptto hasn't yet run the bike for more than a few laps around the back yard. It was just repaired under warranty and just arrived back to me last week...haven't re-mounted it yet. It's a Mini-E though, so not really more power than the stock set-up...just more efficient and silent. :D
Right now, and yesterday when this accident occurred, the bike was essentially a stock set-up. Stock 16S LifeP04 pack, 18Fet Infineon (limited to 50A), HS4080. The only exception was the forced air cooling fan mod to the motor which bares no relevance to this issue.
Yes, I've (briefly) run higher power (5KW) previously, but I nearly smoked my HS4065 doing it, so it didn't last long. The dropout/axle issues occurred way before any of that anyway.
remf wrote:Also I don’t think regen was available then…did you install it yourself? You certainly seem to be having a LOT of issues especially with axle stripping. I haven’t had that issue since the installation of the torque clamp and have always tightened brake side first with 45 Nm as Rick says.
Wrong. Mine was one of the first to come stock with Regen at the very end of 2011.
remf wrote:With the greatest respect, apart from the huge mods, this suggests that maybe you’re doing something wrong. I hardly ever have to think about making any adjustments but I still do a preflight before every ride. Very puzzling that you’ve had this many problems. I really don’t believe this has anything to do with design. If it is a design issue then why does it seem to be just your bike? I’ve never seen or heard of a wheel falling off before and can’t see how you can, in all seriousness, blame Stealth.
Appreciate the 'great respect', but I think you are wrong here. Read Rix post just above...he can't use Regen any more because he had axle rotation issues. I know that you've been following this thread for a long time Remf...surely you remember all the other people with axle rotation issues...it's not just me!
Rix wrote:CD, I was waiting for you to report back on this, did this not work or what? I was hoping the heat shrink would have worked. :?
LOL :lol: My apologies for never following up on that...it didn't work. The forces at play are way too much for heat shrink to do anything. It just crushed/cut and didn't do anything really. As you can see though...I've been trying different things to address this issue for a while, but so far nothing has worked.
I've now tried so many things to address this issue I've lost count...that's why I'm saying I think it's the design. I'm happy for that to just be my opinion if that's all it is...but it's mine to share and up to others if they want to listen or not.
Hyena wrote:Yeah I'm with the others here CD.
So yeah, as per above...think I've addressed everything you've mentioned already, so I won't rehash it.

Anyway...on another note. I still think Stealth bikes are great...when they work...and this is the short video of what Conrad (kiwiev) and I got up to before my rear wheel fell off. Enjoy. :)


Cheers
Custom made 18650/21700 battery packs

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled motor @ 6KW, Adaptto Mini-E. 49AH, 52V 18650 - 2.5Kwhr
Cowardlyducks - Stealth Fighter Videos

BikeE recumbent commuter - 9C, 6Fet Grinfineon, internal 17AH, 52V, + on-board solar.

Ebike Garage - My YouTube Ebike ramblings.

High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

litespeed   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1367
Joined: Aug 11 2010 4:42pm
Location: St. Peters, Missouri

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by litespeed » Aug 02 2015 10:42am

CD,

I just wiggle the axle and stuff the most in that I could. My axle never came loose nor did my axle nut. I did and always do use blue loc tite just to be on the safe side.

Might help in your case and definitely couldn't hurt.

Good luck.

Tom
I'm married so you know I'm no stranger to pain!

User avatar
kiwiev   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 999
Joined: Mar 22 2015 4:19am
Location: Jindabyne NSW Australia

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by kiwiev » Aug 02 2015 4:13pm

Hey guys go easy I was right beside CD the whole ride and Jay there was no noise or warning!

And it wasn't even steep or fast, and he was taking it easy for me. But there should be a recess in the dropouts for the torque plates so if the nuts go loose it still can't go rearwards until the nuts are really loose by that time you would feel it imo.

Btw I like the fighter it rides nice :D

Cheers Kiwiev

Theodore Voltaire   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1926
Joined: Sep 26 2013 11:41pm
Location: Dallas

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by Theodore Voltaire » Aug 02 2015 5:29pm

I used to think you couldn't use regen without causing the axle to loosen, even with the torque clamp. I was following Rix's axle tightening sequence, but it was still coming loose.

I discovered what I was doing wrong was using a small allen wrench to tighten the bolt on the torque clamp. You can't get enough torque on the clamp bolt by hand with a little 6 inch allen wrench. You need at least 15 ft lbs on the bolt, but most people won't be able to get more than about 12 ft lbs by hand. The solution is to use a torque wrench, because 15ft lb is close to the maximum amount you can put on the clamp without stripping it out.

Even after tightening it all down properly the right side axle bolt will stay tight, but the left side axle bolt will loosen a little over time, but not nearly like before, and it isn't really a problem if you check it every week of so. I think the axle probably flexes slightly which allows the right axle nut to eventually loosen a little.

Striping the axle is a different story. You strip your axle when you over tighten the axle bolts trying to stop them from coming loose. Thou shalt not tighten axle bolts more than 30 ft lbs of torque, or may lightening bolts rain down from the heavens on yo head. :D


Image

User avatar
Rix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 6647
Joined: Mar 29 2012 11:26am
Location: Fallon NV USA

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by Rix » Aug 02 2015 5:59pm

Hyena wrote:Yeah I'm with the others here CD.

Rix wrote:CD, I was waiting for you to report back on this, did this not work or what? I was hoping the heat shrink would have worked
Rix, you've made alot of helpful posts for stealth owners and other ES members, especially with your wealth of experience on motorcycle rim conversions. But I think this post is your finest ES contribution to date :mrgreen:
I agree, this is one of my finest comments to date so far. Actually, I was reading the forum and taking a swig of beer. When I read this, the beer came flying out my nose and my eyes are watering like crazy now. :lol:

User avatar
Rix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 6647
Joined: Mar 29 2012 11:26am
Location: Fallon NV USA

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by Rix » Aug 02 2015 6:14pm

Cowardlyduck wrote:Well, it seems I've hit a nerve or something with my previous comments. I was pretty pissed off at the whole situation yesterday so may have pointed the blame finger too harshly in Stealth's direction. I apologise if it seemed like I was twisting the truth at all.
It is still my opinion however that the design leaves a lot to be desired. I do also recognise that my situation is far from perfect and I have made a few mistakes myself along the way. Mainly that's over-tightening the axle nuts...it was the quick and 'easy' solution to the rotation issue...but clearly a mistake.
Rix wrote:CD, not trying to pick an online argument here, but my Bomber that my dad is currently riding has over 10,000 total miles on that swingarm and about 6000 miles with the current 5404. Not one single problem has me or my dad had with this design. Granted, we don't use the regen braking as we both have also experience axle nuts loosening due to the minute play there is in the torque block and drop spacing during regen braking. But I can also tell you that regen braking has also loosend up clamping dropouts on one of the DIY bikes to the point where the rider stripped out the clamping block trying to tighten that thing down. Point is, a little mechanical sympathy and riding style adjustment is needed for trouble free operation. With exception of Mexican Batman, I haven't seen anyone as heavy as I am riding these machines over the type of crap I ride. I haven't had 1/10th the issues you have. Here is how we solve your axle problems. First, get a new axle. Use a torque wrench and don't exceed 45nm on your axle nuts. Always tighten the disk brake side axle nut first. When you tighten the disk brake side first, you rock the axle in the direction that it wants to move/rotate under power thus eliminating any freeplay between the axle flat, dropout, and torque block when you get on the throttle. And quite using regen. In fact disconnect the button. Just cause its there, it doesn't mean you got to use it. After your first ride, recheck your torque on the axle nuts. They will have loosned slightly so bring them back up to 45nm. Then as long as you don't use regen, they will not come loose and take a set until you remove the wheel. Before you say "I should be allowed to use regen because it came that way" Look at this way, just because my truck redlines at 6000 RPM, it doesn't mean I have to rev it to the limit and drive around in 1st gear when I can shift to 4th gear and do it at 1800 rpm driving around. If I did that, If I left it in 1st, my gas mileage would sink like the Titanic and I would blow the motor eventually. Like I said, not trying to argue with you, but your axle loosening problems can be resolved.
Rix, I think your situation doesn't really apply to me as for one your high mileage is on your Bomber...which is a Bomber...not a Fighter, so the axle diameter is different. I believe the small axle on the HS40xx motors is one of the key contributing factors into all these issues. There just isn't enough meat on the things for the design used on the Fighters drop-outs if Regen is going to be used IMO. A correct design would factor in the small axle of the HS40xx motors or use a different axle.
Also, you say you don't use Regen on either bike...I think if I hadn't used Regen I wouldn't have half the issues I'm now seeing, but that's not the point...these bikes were marketed, and sold with Regen...the design should also allow it. For me Regen is essential, both for the extra range it gives and the great braking effect...I will do everything I can to keep it as an option.


Cheers
Yah, CD, you are correct, my Bomber has a 10mmx14mm axle vs my Fighter's 4080 10mm X 12.52mm axle. I do have 1200 miles or about 2000km on the Fighter though and no problems with the axle. Those are mostly hard offroad miles also with no problems. Still, that's not 6000km like you have.

User avatar
Hyena   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5628
Joined: Aug 13 2008 9:10am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by Hyena » Aug 02 2015 8:16pm

Cowardlyduck wrote: My apologies for never following up on that...it didn't work. The forces at play are way too much for heat shrink to do anything. It just crushed/cut and didn't do anything really
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLTefzlx1i4



That was what was so funny about Rix's post - of course it wasn't going to work. You missed his sarcasm. And I do apologise for making you spill your beer Rix :lol:

The feeler gauge thing does work though, I did a similar thing when I snapped an axle at the hunter EV festival this time last year. I should point out that it was a thicker crown axle that snapped too. It was a problem in the regen settings in the controller that caused it - with regen kicking in with full force every time I backed off only to then release a split second later. The result of this 12kw shunt back and forth every few seconds was to quickly wiggle the axle loose and a few laps later it spread the drop out then snapped. I didnt have another replacement crown on hand but did have a H40. I wasn't super confident with the smaller axle after breaking a larger one but after hammering in a small shim between the axle and the chewed dropout stopped any movement. Obviously shoving 12kw into a little H40 under race conditions was a recipe for smoke but the axle was fine.

Loose lips sink ships
Loose axles pwn hub motors
Confucius 2.0

:wink:
www.HyenaElectricBikes.com
Aussie high powered e-bike kits and custom performance ebikes
New FUTR and Hyena special edition Beta frames now available!
My build and HD video thread____. My youtube channel____ Hyena Facebook page
My bike is writing cheques my body can't cash...

User avatar
Cowardlyduck   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2619
Joined: Jun 26 2011 8:41pm
Location: Canberra, ACT, Australia

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by Cowardlyduck » Aug 02 2015 8:41pm

Meh, I got the sarcasm...just ignored it. :pancake:
At least you'll believe me now when I say I've tried everything... :lol:

Except the feeler gauge...I'll have to try that if I continue having issues with the 16mm axle on the Leaf Motor, but I doubt I will.

Anyway, I've over debating this now...I think the design sucks...most of you guy's don't...lets leave it at that shall we. 8)

I'm hoping the combination of the Light weight leaf motor, light weight Adaptto Mini-E controller and, later on a light weight/high capacity 18650 pack, should make my Fighter a light weight/ long range weapon. :D

Cheers
Custom made 18650/21700 battery packs

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled motor @ 6KW, Adaptto Mini-E. 49AH, 52V 18650 - 2.5Kwhr
Cowardlyducks - Stealth Fighter Videos

BikeE recumbent commuter - 9C, 6Fet Grinfineon, internal 17AH, 52V, + on-board solar.

Ebike Garage - My YouTube Ebike ramblings.

High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

User avatar
Hyena   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5628
Joined: Aug 13 2008 9:10am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by Hyena » Aug 02 2015 8:54pm

Cowardlyduck wrote:At least you'll believe me now when I say I've tried everything... :lol:
I haven't seen you pull out a pack of chewing gum yet :P
I did have to laugh at your video and pouring water on the motor. Most cyclists get to the top of a steep climb and reach for the drink bottle. Ebikers do the same, but we give our motors a drink instead :lol:
the feeler gauge...I'll have to try that if I continue having issues with the 16mm axle on the Leaf Motor, but I doubt I will.
Keep in mind that once the axle slot is damaged fitting a brand new motor won't solve the issue and if there's any play at all that allows the axle to rock on regen it will chew out even worse and/or break the stronger axle. Pendragon fitted a strong custom made aftermarket axle to his motor and it still broke, because he hadn't addressed the original issue. You may need a combination of shimming the axle and this new motor. Or ideally have new thick laser cut torque plates made to fit the 16mm axle. Maybe even get them cut to 15.9mm and then file down the last little poofteenth so you get a precise fit around the axle.
www.HyenaElectricBikes.com
Aussie high powered e-bike kits and custom performance ebikes
New FUTR and Hyena special edition Beta frames now available!
My build and HD video thread____. My youtube channel____ Hyena Facebook page
My bike is writing cheques my body can't cash...

User avatar
kiwiev   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 999
Joined: Mar 22 2015 4:19am
Location: Jindabyne NSW Australia

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by kiwiev » Aug 02 2015 9:46pm

I Agree with Jay

If you get some laser cut bring your bike down and I will tig them in :mrgreen:

Cheers Kiwi

User avatar
Rix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 6647
Joined: Mar 29 2012 11:26am
Location: Fallon NV USA

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by Rix » Aug 02 2015 10:46pm

Hyena wrote:
Cowardlyduck wrote: My apologies for never following up on that...it didn't work. The forces at play are way too much for heat shrink to do anything. It just crushed/cut and didn't do anything really
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLTefzlx1i4



That was what was so funny about Rix's post - of course it wasn't going to work. You missed his sarcasm. And I do apologise for making you spill your beer Rix :lol:

The feeler gauge thing does work though, I did a similar thing when I snapped an axle at the hunter EV festival this time last year. I should point out that it was a thicker crown axle that snapped too. It was a problem in the regen settings in the controller that caused it - with regen kicking in with full force every time I backed off only to then release a split second later. The result of this 12kw shunt back and forth every few seconds was to quickly wiggle the axle loose and a few laps later it spread the drop out then snapped. I didnt have another replacement crown on hand but did have a H40. I wasn't super confident with the smaller axle after breaking a larger one but after hammering in a small shim between the axle and the chewed dropout stopped any movement. Obviously shoving 12kw into a little H40 under race conditions was a recipe for smoke but the axle was fine.

Loose lips sink ships
Loose axles pwn hub motors
Confucius 2.0

:wink:
Jay, I am trying to keep it tight now... and failing. Don't you realize there are people wearing suits and sitting in offices and not trying to spit their coffee out their nose? For me, its beer, and failing miserably. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Attachments
Axle mod.jpg
Axle mod.jpg (99.13 KiB) Viewed 3008 times

User avatar
remf   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 627
Joined: Apr 29 2011 7:57pm
Location: NSW Australia

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by remf » Aug 02 2015 11:31pm

Rix wrote:For me, its beer
Me too...bit early and at work on a Monday over here so it'll have to wait till later in the week but I've discovered high quality beer...American IPA is the best. Only 1 or 2 Australian hops beverages come close.

That meme is very unkind lol

User avatar
Rix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 6647
Joined: Mar 29 2012 11:26am
Location: Fallon NV USA

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by Rix » Aug 02 2015 11:38pm

Remf, what the name of the American IPA you be partaking it after work? Did I mention that working on Ebikes while consuming your favorite adult beverage go hand in hand?

User avatar
remf   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 627
Joined: Apr 29 2011 7:57pm
Location: NSW Australia

Re: E-S Stealth Electric Bike Owners

Post by remf » Aug 03 2015 12:06am

Rix wrote:Remf, what the name of the American IPA you be partaking it after work? Did I mention that working on Ebikes while consuming your favorite adult beverage go hand in hand?
I think you have mentioned that but worthwhile repeating!
Expensive & very hard to find American IPA: Ballast Point Sculpin
Pricey but better value & relatively easy to find: Ballast Point Big Eye
Pricey Aus IPA's: Feral Hop Hog, Mash Copycat
Better value quality Aus IPA: ???

Post Reply