MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by gensem » May 01, 2011 6:05 pm

Stall test at top of the hill failed. Stalled multiple times, had to get the bike up to 1mph.
So im gessing that 3.25x phase ended up giving up more peak amps but the timing was off by a major offset that forced you to pedal when stalled at the hill?


I think I never got to understand what BT does. =(
If its not current, whats does it do? switch from star to delta in that given time???
Last edited by gensem on May 01, 2011 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Justin we really appreciate what you did!

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by wineboyrider » May 01, 2011 6:10 pm

gensem wrote: I dont think you can get real speed reading from a geared hub because of its freewheel capabilities; I ordered the CA-DP and it should work with any motor, but the speedmeter has a regular sensor to be tied to the wheel to get actual speed reading. ebikes.ca has all very well explained or their site.
I dont have anything working atm, but I ll be doing a greyborg frame built with either MAC/BMS or Xlyte HT3525 in the coming months.
Cell_man has MACs running over 2,5kw peaks, so im gessing you might have timing problems. What controller what you using?
I know that the CA-DP won't work right with this motor, but I wanted to see how it would perform at higher voltages so I tried it anyway. I have a regular speedometer hooked up to it so it's no problem for now.
Just waiting on enough money for the right one...
I am using a lyens 9fet controller right now. It runs great up to 48v but after that it acts sporadic at low speed. Nicobie told me his worked great on an analog controller to higher voltages and I was wondering if that's where I should go next....???
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by neptronix » May 01, 2011 10:11 pm

I don't think a controller can switch from star to delta..

The reason block time is confusing is because various people have different ideas on how it works.
Yet, i have not seen anyone do tests like i have done.

This is not a vanilla controller by any means, so maybe block time works differently on other controllers.

wineboy, read up on the crystalyte controllers. Analog ones that aren't broken are difficult to find. They also don't seem to live up to their voltage ratings.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by Burtie » May 02, 2011 4:01 am

neptronix wrote: ... Block time has no effect, at least on this cell_man controller.
It may be that the phase current limit you set is overiding the block time operation.
Phase currents will be at their highest during startup.

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by neptronix » May 13, 2011 12:34 am

Wahoo!! I hooked up the 20ah lipo pack today finally.

Image

( it's in a topeak rack as the ammo box is still not ready :( )

I had each pack specially picked out from the 13 lipo packs i ordered, i balanced and paralleled only the cream of the crop, leaving the remaining lipos for a short stint pack. Worked great! all the cells were within 10mv when i was done.

Image

Got 32 miles out of it, with lots of hilly terrain. Had quite a bit of AH left too; pack was at 37.1v!
Voltage sag at 36 amps peak was only 0.6v, lol. Lipo is awesome :mrgreen:

The ride was great. Portland has a lot of trails to explore.. I actually had 30amp hours on me just in case, but didn't get to use em. Had to come back cuz i have work to take care of today :x

Image

Image

Image

Well, i have achieved the goal i set forth when i decided to build this eBike. I am very stoked with the results. Should be a great riding season :mrgreen:
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by wineboyrider » May 13, 2011 9:24 pm

Wow. Some nice pictures. Weather is pretty nice finally for ya?
:shock:
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by neptronix » May 13, 2011 11:59 pm

For the 6 months of decent weather we get, Oregon is an eye popper.
Yeah, we are alternately getting rain and New Mexico-esque cloudy sunshine.

I have been waiting too long for this
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by Racer_X » May 14, 2011 12:23 am

Congratulations on achieving your goal, it is like the end of a chapter. Looking forward to hearing about your next goal.
I guess 20ah was too much for your ammo box? Was that a 50mm bullet ammo box by the way?
Cannondale F8 MTB, 9c 9x7, Regen,ThreeSpeed Cruise. with torque plates. 12s3p or 18s2p depending on mood.Maxxis Holy Roller in the summer and Schwalbe Ice Spiker in winter.
Backup bike Schwinn Heavy Duti Beach Cruiser, 9c 9x7 front Regen,ThreeSpeed Cruise. with clamping dropouts, Maxxis Holy Roller in the summer and Schwalbe Ice Spiker in winter.

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by neptronix » May 14, 2011 12:29 am

Racer_X wrote:Congratulations on achieving your goal, it is like the end of a chapter. Looking forward to hearing about your next goal.
I guess 20ah was too much for your ammo box? Was that a 50mm bullet ammo box by the way?
Thanks. The next goal is building up the girlfriend's 250w ecobike elegance up into something that can hang with mine... while keeping it's stock-ish look:

Image

And actually the 10S 20ah fits perfect in the box, with room to spare! I just have to bug greenerwheels to drill out an exit port for the wires, paint / sticker the 36v cat logo on it, and slap it on the bike.

Until then i got the topeak rack to do the job. It can handle 20lbs so it'll work. The 20ah batt is only about 13lb.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by Racer_X » May 14, 2011 12:41 am

I am also building an ebike for the wife. based on the 350w ebike kit geared motor. It funner to share the ebike good times.
I am still wondering what size ammo box you have though. I really like it but I have no idea about dimensions.
I have seen that they sell 50 mm ammo boxes and 30 mm ammo boxes, if you can give me some dimensions I can find a similar ammo box to yours.
Thanks.
Cannondale F8 MTB, 9c 9x7, Regen,ThreeSpeed Cruise. with torque plates. 12s3p or 18s2p depending on mood.Maxxis Holy Roller in the summer and Schwalbe Ice Spiker in winter.
Backup bike Schwinn Heavy Duti Beach Cruiser, 9c 9x7 front Regen,ThreeSpeed Cruise. with clamping dropouts, Maxxis Holy Roller in the summer and Schwalbe Ice Spiker in winter.

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by Alan B » May 14, 2011 12:46 am

Those look like the smaller size ammo boxes. Commonly called 30 caliber (for 308). The larger are often called 50 caliber (for 50 BMG). They are also used for other sizes of ammo, so the markings may have 223 or other values.

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by Alan B » May 14, 2011 12:47 am

In fact it says 30 caliber in the first posting.

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by Alan B » May 14, 2011 12:51 am

The first posting shows a photo of the batteries in the ammo box. You can get the dimensions of those batteries from the HobbyKing website and use that to get a very good idea of the size of the ammo box.

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by neptronix » May 14, 2011 12:51 am

Sorry i didn't answer that.. it's a 30cal ammo box, so the smaller type.
Fits well inbetween the legs while pedaling, that's why i picked it.

The sizes are standardized within about a fourth of an inch, so yours should be similar to mine.

10in long
3.25in wide
And about 6.5in tall.

Yeah that's cool you can get the lady involved.

Dunno if you're doing the lipo thing or not but.. 20C turnigy fits snug, 20C zippy lipo knocks around in it and needs insulation, nanotech or 30c may be too tight in there.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by Racer_X » May 14, 2011 1:01 am

Thanks guys for all the answers! Now i am on track with what i need.
YES i am going LIPO, it is one of my goals but need to save up some more money for that goal.
Cannondale F8 MTB, 9c 9x7, Regen,ThreeSpeed Cruise. with torque plates. 12s3p or 18s2p depending on mood.Maxxis Holy Roller in the summer and Schwalbe Ice Spiker in winter.
Backup bike Schwinn Heavy Duti Beach Cruiser, 9c 9x7 front Regen,ThreeSpeed Cruise. with clamping dropouts, Maxxis Holy Roller in the summer and Schwalbe Ice Spiker in winter.

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by o00scorpion00o » May 21, 2011 11:22 am

Hi Neptronix,


Wow that really turned out well, well done!

That pack looks small enough, is that 8x 5ah Turnigy? and you are using 10S.

Do you not balance charge all the time?

I got the Icharger 206B after and I notice fast charge, balance. When you charge without using balance wires, do you set the Icharger to switch off at 10 amps, based on your pack being 10 amps?

I can't wait to get my mac now and batteries!

We don't get 6 months good weather, 2 if we are lucky, so It would be nice to get it soon!


Mark
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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by neptronix » May 21, 2011 3:45 pm

o00scorpion00o wrote: That pack looks small enough, is that 8x 5ah Turnigy? and you are using 10S.

Do you not balance charge all the time?
I haven't had to balance charge my smaller 5ah 10s zippy pack for 33 cycles now, the cells stay within 10mv or so of each other, it's awesome.. I can't speak for the 20ah pack, haven't exercised that one much.
o00scorpion00o wrote:I got the Icharger 206B after and I notice fast charge, balance. When you charge without using balance wires, do you set the Icharger to switch off at 10 amps, based on your pack being 10 amps?
I'm not sure what you mean, do you mean amp hours?
Anyhow the charger determines when to shut off by sensing the voltage. At 4.15v per cell, it will taper off the current slowly and decide it's done when the pack sits at 41.50v on it's own. Pretty simple.
o00scorpion00o wrote:We don't get 6 months good weather, 2 if we are lucky, so It would be nice to get it soon!
Oh dude, i thought i had it bad. My heart goes out to ya. I move to this state from California where riding season is about 10-11 months of the year in my opinion. So yeah i'm a whiner. But you got me beat.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by o00scorpion00o » May 21, 2011 5:03 pm

neptronix wrote:I'm not sure what you mean, do you mean amp hours?
Anyhow the charger determines when to shut off by sensing the voltage. At 4.15v per cell, it will taper off the current slowly and decide it's done when the pack sits at 41.50v on it's own. Pretty simple.
Yes I mean amp hours, I have a habit of saying amps! :D

Do you connect the balance wires at all to charge, and what mode do you use on the charger?
neptronix wrote:Oh dude, i thought i had it bad. My heart goes out to ya. I move to this state from California where riding season is about 10-11 months of the year in my opinion. So yeah i'm a whiner. But you got me beat.
Does California not have good weather? I thought it did?

Yeah one of the prices of living so far north with the Atlantic weather! I wish we had some of that global warming they keep on brain washing people about! The last 2 winters we had were the coldest in over 150 years! :mrgreen: Global warming? Pity though as in the height of summer it's bright until nearly 11pm if it's clear weather lol, would be nice to have better weather to enjoy it more!

I wish I could move to France or Spain! :mrgreen:
Haibike EQ Trekking, powered by Bosch.

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by neptronix » May 21, 2011 5:17 pm

o00scorpion00o wrote:Do you connect the balance wires at all to charge, and what mode do you use on the charger?
No, i don't bother with them, i just check the cell balance every few rides, or more particularly if i drain the batteries down to my LVC, which is set to 3.45v per cell.
I charge to 4.15v per cell, so even if the cells are disbalanced, i have a lot of headroom. Though, i should be charging to 4.10v per cell really..
neptronix wrote:Does California not have good weather? I thought it did?

Yeah one of the prices of living so far north with the Atlantic weather! I wish we had some of that global warming they keep on brain washing people about! The last 2 winters we had were the coldest in over 150 years! :mrgreen: Global warming? Pity though as in the height of summer it's bright until nearly 11pm if it's clear weather lol, would be nice to have better weather to enjoy it more!

I wish I could move to France or Spain! :mrgreen:
California has some of the best weather, although it is certainly too hot during the summer in the southern parts.
But it is pretty expensive to live there and i don't like the attitudes of the area.
I'm up in north Oregon now. Overcast about 2/3rds of the year, which blows.
But it's cheap and i love the people here.
If i could have it all in one place, i'd move wherever that is.. :)
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by o00scorpion00o » May 21, 2011 6:04 pm

neptronix wrote:No, i don't bother with them, i just check the cell balance every few rides, or more particularly if i drain the batteries down to my LVC, which is set to 3.45v per cell.
I charge to 4.15v per cell, so even if the cells are disbalanced, i have a lot of headroom. Though, i should be charging to 4.10v per cell really..
Ah 3.45v that's what I should set my cell monitors to is it? thanks for that! And 4.15 for charge? But how can the charger tell the cell volt if I don't have the wires connected? Do you use normal or fast charge mode?
neptronix wrote:California has some of the best weather, although it is certainly too hot during the summer in the southern parts.
But it is pretty expensive to live there and i don't like the attitudes of the area.
I'm up in north Oregon now. Overcast about 2/3rds of the year, which blows.
But it's cheap and i love the people here.
If i could have it all in one place, i'd move wherever that is.. :)
Hey isn't Clint Eastwood from California I think San Fransisco?

I think Clint Eastwood is the best actor ever! I could watch his movies all day over and over, there will never be an actor like him again!!! :D
In fact I just watched Dirty Harry tonight....again! :D My brothers and sister were there in San Francisco and they loved it!
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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by neptronix » May 21, 2011 8:55 pm

o00scorpion00o wrote:Ah 3.45v that's what I should set my cell monitors to is it? thanks for that! And 4.15 for charge? But how can the charger tell the cell volt if I don't have the wires connected? Do you use normal or fast charge mode?
What your low voltage should be set to is quite variable on how many amp hours you have and how much voltage sag you have.

If you're using the cellog as a LVC alarm, and you only have say.. 5 amp hours, well, the battery can go from 3.55v per cell to 3.0v per cell pretty quick if you're drawing a lot of amps! so you need to set the cellog 8s to be very conservative at 3.5v/cell or so to give you a good warning.

Image

As far as LVC in the controller goes..

It really depends on your pack size example, my 5ah pack will sag about 2-3 volts, whereas my 20ah pack will sag about 0.5-0.75 volts at peak amps ( now about 36a ).

That's a difference of 0.2-0.3 and 0.05-0.075 volt sag per cell when i'm running peak amps.

So for my 20ah pack, i need to set my LVC quite conservatively at about 3.5v/cell average to avoid the part of the discharge that starts getting disbalanced..

For my 5ah pack, i need to set that LVC more to 3.35v/cell average, otherwise it will cut off on me due to the 2-3 volts of sag.


Oh and i don't know where Clint Eastwood is from, maybe check the wikipedia ;)
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by o00scorpion00o » May 22, 2011 6:38 am

I have the cell log 8M without data recording.

What should I have the low voltage alarm set for? What is the minimum voltage recommended for LiPo?

I get what you are saying about voltage sag and all, So basically If I set my lvc for 3.5 volts and I have used up some of the ah, that the lvc alarm could come on even though the battery still has charge left? but that won't damage the cell would it?

Sometimes I think it would be far nicer to have a BMS that would take care of everything

I'm still learning! And thanks for the info! :D
Haibike EQ Trekking, powered by Bosch.

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by neptronix » May 22, 2011 3:24 pm

Well, like i said, it does depend on your voltage sag.
3.5 is a good value. But if your cells sag to 3.5v @ max amps and your resting voltage is at 3.7v then that sucks because you're missing out on maybe 1/5th of your charge.

You can be even more conservative and set it to 3.6v per cell ( minus whatever your voltage sag is ).
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by o00scorpion00o » May 22, 2011 4:09 pm

I wonder what the voltage sag will be on my 8 ah 12S Zippy's ?

I hope HK get batteries soon and cell-man motors!
Haibike EQ Trekking, powered by Bosch.

Nissan Leaf Top Spec, 6.6 kw charger.

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Re: MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

Post by neptronix » May 22, 2011 4:28 pm

Find out with a watt meter or cycle analyst :)
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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