Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by dogman dan » Jul 13 2012 6:33am

It worked out well, I rode it a lot last year before I got sick. Now all my bikes just sit. Improving a lot though, and might get back to riding more by next spring ,2013.

Torture testing it on really bad washboard dirt roads broke a few welds at the seat, but the crucial ones on the droputs are still good. FS longtail is the bomb when you ride the heat cracked pavements in the soutwest usa.

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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by dogman dan » Dec 01 2012 2:23pm

Update to the bike build, a few new things have been added.

Motor upgraded to crystalyte 5304
Controller upgraded to 48v 40 amps
Additional cargo bags
Crowcycles double kickstand, VERY NICE!
Forks upgraded to 80mm rockshocks
Now running on 48v 15 ah pingbattery connected in series with 15 ah of 14s RC lipo.
Bouncing Betty, 2013.jpg
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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by Drunkskunk » Dec 01 2012 2:37pm

All it needs now is some nice balloon tires :D

How are you liking that big Clyte?
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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by spinningmagnets » Dec 01 2012 7:12pm

20,000 posts, check.
results in:
48V / 30-Ah battery, check.
longtail full suspension...double check...
Last edited by spinningmagnets on Jan 20 2013 1:49pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by Cyclebutt » Jan 20 2013 11:26am

I like!
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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by neptronix » Mar 10 2013 12:49am

Dude, it has taken me some time to appreciate this bike and the ingenuity behind it. I just inherited a free FS frame and i was thinking about doing something like this, looked at a few ideas and decided that this was the best one.

I believe your bike will have a doppelganger soon ;)

Is this your primary ride these days?
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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by dogman dan » Mar 25 2013 1:19pm

Here's a more recent picture. I wouldn't say it's my primary ride, but I do like to ride it a lot, and ride it anytime I go shopping for more than one loaf of bread. It's fast with that 5304 on it now, so both fun and utilitarian.
Bouncing Betty Spring 2013.jpg
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I definitely am loving the big motor on it. It needed it, or double motors. It's ready to ride across a continent.

I did put whitewall balloon tires on it some time back. Really helpful on the washboard dirt roads to have a bit more float. The short cut to the flea market, vegetable store, dollar store, and Auto Zone takes about a quarter mile of dirt road to avoid an extra mile and a half ride.

New in this picture, is a nicer seat, just recovered in white lycra. A white seat is priceless in the southwest. It's narrow like a brooks spring seat, with the right kind of springs, but not full of funky gel. A second set of motorcycle saddlebags, and a leather motorcycle type handlebar bag. A spot of spray paint on the battery box too.

With the second set of nice saddlebags, I'm finally calling this project really finished. I just quit my job recently and have the summer off. I'm too unhealthy to ride to Grin Cyclery, but there will be some road trips as soon as sleeping outside is warm.

Not a bad end for a frame that began life as a currie US Pro Drive electric bike. Still sports the decals, saying electric power system on the top tube. 8)

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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by dogman dan » Mar 25 2013 1:40pm

slightly bigger version of the picture. I guess it's still got one last detail left to do. Needs a battery box in the triangle behind the seat tube. Where I carry lipo now is convenient, but getting it in the frame will be best for a long ride with full camping gear.
spring 2013 bouncing betty.jpg
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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by Lemlux » Mar 28 2013 9:39pm

Your use of the full suspension frame welded with BB shell welded to the front frame rear dropouts nicely avoids the need to fabricate a pivoting axle suspended in a BB and then fastened to the front frame rear dropouts, presumably with nuts. I'm happy to hear that it rides very stably.

Interesting that your design doesn't pogo-stick when standing up to pedal. I've noticed the same lack of pogo-sticking with a weaker 800 pound
undamped spring on my longtail full suspension cargotail build. I would have guessed that our extended length builds would exacerbate pogo-sticking, but the opposiste seems to have occurred.

Also, what pressure is your rear tire inflated to? Without rider the rear tire appears to be visibly flatter where it meets the pavement. I'm surprised that you haven't described any pinch flats.

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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by dogman dan » May 16 2013 1:18pm

That was a happy discovery. That shock couldn't be a cheaper pogo stick, yet it seems to avoid chatter and pogo, possibly because it's just horribly overloaded and just on the stiff end of the spring. I had to crank down the pre load to about the max of course.

I really thought I'd have to immediately replace the thing, but it actually does fine, since it's only asked to do street tasks. The long wheelbase definitely gives you a long rocker if you just stand the pedals. The shock setup is same as I always like, do a jump up and down on the pedals, and the whole bike goes up and down level. I set up stiffer for street than I do for dirt. So that minimizes pogo to start with.

So much weight on the rear of it must help the chatter on washboard dirt roads. Same as the heavy steel bumper on a pickup trick. I just re weighed it today, 132 pounds with the battery. Then me, then groceries. Definitely well over 300 pounds all in. In the pic, the rear tire is on the ground, but the kick stand has the front tire not touching the ground. Set up that way, so the stand still works in dirt.

Tires are about 50 psi. Cheap wallmart beach cruiser tires, nothing special. I don't expect more than a year from them. No issues whatsoever with pinch flats. That's what I expected. It's the WHOLE REASON why I insisted on FS for the longtail. 10,000 miles of commuting on trash streets taught me the value of FS on the street. You simply stop having spoke and tire problems from bottoming the rim to the road on the bigger potholes.

I ride this thing off 8" tall curbs with zero hesitation at 30 mph. Hopping up a curb I take it slower, but once I have the front tire up , I just ride the rear on up it with a blip of throttle. I run the rear spokes just a hair loose, so you hear a creak but not too much. Never over loose.

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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by dogman dan » May 16 2013 1:23pm

Next project, the trailer hitch for it. For the really big hauls from Sams Club.

Oh, and I got a new battery for it. It now carries 48v 10 ah of 14s RC lipo in the front battery box. 57.5 v full charged. Takes me to Sams Club 7 miles away and back at 30 mph perfect, stopping at 49v.

Bulk charging it with my old 48v ping charger. A 5 amp kingpan.

Coming this week, a dingle to charge ipods and cellphones from a USB. It will be powered by leftover old lipo, so it would keep a phone going for about a month on one charge.

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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by spinningmagnets » May 16 2013 6:29pm

...14S RC lipo...57.5V full charged...Takes me 7 miles and back at 30 mph perfect, stopping at 49V. Bulk charging it with my old 48V ping charger. A 5-amp kingpan...
Dogman, I am intrigued by being able to use a common LiFePO4 48V charger for bulk-charging (balance-charging once a month?). Many ways to get to 14S, what combo would you recommend? 5S + 5S + 4S...or...6S + 6S + 2S...or...10S + 4S?

Are there specific benefits/drawback to any of these options?

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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by dogman dan » May 23 2013 7:08am

It doesn't matter too much how you get to 14s. My new battery is 12s +2s mostly because my mower likes 6s.

But come to think of it, the mower could run on 7s too, so 4s+4s+3s+3s would work. I just bought 5 ah more, but it's going to be 3s hardpacks, + one 2s I already have.

At the moment, you can't buy much from the USA warehouse. But I wanted a full 15 ah pack for enough range to go a 20 mile round trip without going super slow.

The other day, I did a try out of loading up and camping. I have about 50 mile range at 17 mph. Not working is improving my strength enough to consider a 2-3 day tour on the longtail. It rides pretty shitty with everything to camp strapped on, plus a lot of battery weight carrying old lipo that only gives half capacity now. Much of the weight problem is the need to carry 2 gallons of water. Break down without water in this land and you'd die. But it's tolerable to ride, so a long tour will work.

EDIT, the text below was supposed to be added to the post below. The following was written in Jan 2014.


Charging.

I'm still running 14s lico, and charging with 48v lithium chargers. It's working fine for me, since I rarely charge without removing the batteries from the bike, and putting them on the charger that is located at my fireplace. When on the road, I will charge with them on the bike. But at home I keep to the routine of handling the pack, seeing if anything puffed or got hot, seeing if any wires got damaged, then charge in a relatively safe place.

When not riding a long tour, the typical discharge depth is 3.7v or so. Controller is 40 amps, but 15 ah size keeps discharge rates to about 3c continous, with 4c spikes at most. I do ride a lot at closer to 1c, at about 20 mph. Both chargers are set to 4.15v, giving me a full .15v of leeway for getting out of balance before exceeding 4.3v. I have balanced only a few times this year, and only once in the last six months. When I got the new 14s 15 ah of batteries, I did have to do some balancing in the first 20 cycles, but after that, they have stayed remarkably balanced. Adding another 5 ah for the longer trips will insure a continued conservative discharge depth on nearly every ride.

To be perfectly clear, I may only balance every few months, but I do check every cells voltage fairly often, about weekly, or every half dozen cycles. If I discharge deep, then I check every cell. This is done quite quickly with a cellog 8. They are very rarely found to be more than about .05v out of balance. When I do balance, it's by fully charging the pack, then single cell charging one or two cells in the entire pack to bring them up to 4.15v. On the deepest discharges I have ever done, I have not seen any cell below 3.2v. But on recharge, the lowest cells end up still balanced enough at the top.

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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by dogman dan » Jan 13 2014 6:54am

Some new pictures of Bouncing Betty.

Upgraded to a marzocchi fork. Not sure if it's a bomber fork or another. For sure, a very nice air adjustable shock. HUGE improvement in the ride on larger potholes, washboard roads and such. The fork taken off was a cheap rock shocks dart. I don't know if it filled with water or what, but in cold weather it was not moving at all. I suspect it's just plain worn out.
marzocchi forks on bouncing betty..jpg
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And the entire bike in it's current cargo bags configuration. Blue bag on the very back is an ice chest, for bringing home ice cream and such. Also new since the last pic posted in this thread, a very nice EM3ev battery bag. I carry 14s 15 ah of zippy 20c RC lico batteries in the bag.
Bouncing Betty bomber forks.  1-2014.jpg
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More battery on the way, 14s 5ah. That will bring my battery size to a full 48v 20 ah for the longer rides. If I ride 18 mph, enough battery to ride all the way to the other end of town, 15 miles away, and back on one charge. If I carry another 14s 20 ah of old batteries, I will have a real world usable 32 ah. Enough to go 60-70 miles. Pretty heavy though, when I carry the old tired lico that has 60% capacity remaining.

I'm hoping to do some very long rides this spring and summer. If my health permits. On a good day, I have done some 50 mile rides lately. Last summer my strength was not so good after all. So last summer I limited my self to car camping, and riding shorter distances from the car and trailer that carried the bike to a good place to ride. I still am intrigued by the idea of just riding off from home for a week or more. If I had money, I'd ditch the camping idea and just stay in motels.

Battery and charging. See the text above, in the 2013 post. I thought I was adding to this post, but got into the wrong post by mistake. Bulk charging 14s lico with 48v chargers continues to work well for me, with some close watching of the cells.

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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by amberwolf » Jan 13 2014 1:07pm

dogman wrote: I'm hoping to do some very long rides this spring and summer. If my health permits. On a good day, I have done some 50 mile rides lately. Last summer my strength was not so good after all. So last summer I limited my self to car camping, and riding shorter distances from the car and trailer that carried the bike to a good place to ride. I still am intrigued by the idea of just riding off from home for a week or more. If I had money, I'd ditch the camping idea and just stay in motels.
Time for a trip to Phoenix? :lol: If it was "now", you'd be just in time for a housewarming gathering. :P Too bad you're not on the *west* side of NM--it'd be a lot easier to meet up; I might even be able to do it myself.

Bulk charging 14s lico with 48v chargers continues to work well for me, with some close watching of the cells.
So far I havent' had any issues either, parallel-charging the RC LiPo/LiCo pack with the EIG NMC pack, on CrazyBike2. Been doing it that way since before July 2013. I can't remember right now but I'm pretty sure I was doing it on Delta Tripper before that, while CB2 was down, and before that on CB2 and DT even before the house fire, maybe even before end of 2012, so that would make a year of no problems with it even with the large temperature differences between seasons and between night/day here in Phoenix.

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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by dogman dan » Jan 27 2014 10:52am

Just got some more lico, so now my bike has 48v 20 ah of battery. Most rides still use last years 15 ah pack that carries in the triangle bag. The new 14s 5 ah pack just drops into a saddle bag if needed for all the way across town and back.

My max capacity now is 30 ah, but to get that I have to carry a three year old 20 ah pack with only 50% capacity left.

I can do a 60 mile distance between towns now, finally, even if its into some wind and loaded with camp gear.

Gathering strength for some spring rides. Looking at the route to Bisbee, but I might need 80 mile range to make that one.

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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by Cyclebutt » Feb 10 2014 10:06pm

Glad to see you're still on that Longtail. Ever since I discovered the "dogman Frankenbike" thread I've saved up some steel frames from parts bikes that I normally would have scrapped. Now I have the frame parts but not the time... Same old story, eh? One day, dogman, one day.

Bike on, my man!
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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by dogman dan » Feb 13 2014 12:39pm

Took me two years before I got around to building Bouncing Betty. I just got through working on it some more.

BTW, still bulk charging with either a ping 5 amps charger, or a similar one I got from EM3ev. I never charge higher than 4.15v, giving me a bit of leeway at the top. I was doing 4.1v, but didn't like losing that much range.

The pack I bought last spring stayed balanced pretty good all year. I have taken to mostly just balancing the one cell that needs it. Average time between balancing is about 3 months, but that is only about 15 cycles per month. Retired, I don't go to the grocery every day. But 5 ah of the pack got a very light, like 30% discharge daily. It's no less in need of balancing than the other 10 ah. But the cycles were so light on that pack, it still has not run that many wh.

Bought 14s 10 ah of new Lico, so now I have 25 ah of new, or pretty good lico. Enough to ride 30 mph for 30 miles.

I found that though cool, the motorcycle saddlebags I could find cheap were pretty small in capacity. And then if loaded, they bounced quite a bit. I thought about a few zillon options, from the kitty litter buckets to regular luggage, trash cans, wicker laundry baskets, etc. The best option I could find was some 12" wide 24" long ice chests. But calculations showed little improvement in real capacity. Plus, anything much wider than 10 inches was going to make it turn into a bike that always must take the lane. I really wanted something about 8 inches wide, so that the burble of air from my leg would help lessen the wind drag. Too wide, and the corner is out in the full wind.

Last time I went camping on the bike, it really was pretty tight to carry it all. It's the desert, so the stuff to carry starts with about 3 gallons of water. The load ended up very top heavy, and I still could barely fit a bit of food on the top. I want the load carried lower for starters, and I want room to carry some extra clothes, something to read, perhaps even the laptop for an ES fix while waiting on charging.

So when I dug up some old buried stop signs in my backyard cleanup....

Viola! Super Panniers! :mrgreen:
Bouncing Betty 2-2014  New Panniers.jpg
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They are 7 inches wide, 30 inches long, and 18 inches deep. The stop sign supports the inner side quite well, and there is much less flop of the panniers than the motorcycle bags. Built into each side, is a battery tray able to hold up to 48v 15 ah of RC lipo battery. So with the battery bag, I can carry all my batteries at once, and still have about 22x18 of free space, plus a corner under the battery where I can tuck the emergency tool kit, or other less often needed items. The outer panel is an old coroplast political sign. But I might go with some wood panel later for the woody look. Depends on if the coroplast breaks down in use too fast or not. I like the lightness of the coroplast. The aluminum sign and the wood are heavy enough as it is. But heavy as it is, few things will be as light, in that size.

The top is finished off covered with some old coated canvas, that used to be a balloon basket cover. Still need to do some sewing to complete that.
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This is going to work great, now all the heaviest camping gear, food and water carry right at axle level, with the top entirely free to carry just the tent, sleeping bag, and pads.

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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by dogman dan » Feb 13 2014 3:03pm

OH MY GOD. I can't believe how much this improved the handling of this bike. I tried to mount those old bags low, but never got them as low as this set of deep boxes rides now. Plus, I always ended up having to put stuff in the box on the top deck.

Now the deck is bare, unless I need to carry something bulky, and when I loaded up the boxes with heavy groceries, the bike actually handled better than when empty. Much more bike like, and ready to lean, jink around sharp junk in the road, and much less steering input needed. I used to ride pretty nice empty, but really loaded it would get a bit of that ol familiar frame flex, like the tail's wagging the dog. That feeling is gone, now when I steer the bike just goes there with no frame whip.

Sweet! 8)

Here's how she will look, fully loaded out for a bike camping tour. Nothing on the deck but the sleeping bag, pads, and the tent. It would be a lot easier to carry the camp gear, if I didn't have to carry 40 pounds of battery, two chargers, etc. Can't get by with much less than that much battery around here, since it's 70 miles between towns out here in the west.
Loaded for a tour..jpg
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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by amberwolf » Feb 13 2014 3:11pm

That's why I have my big boxes low (though mine are lower, and can double as "kickstands" :lol: with the 20" wheel on there), cuz it does handle lots better that way. :)

Now I just need a rear suspension and a fat moped/mc tire on the zero-rimmed-HSR3548, and I'll be set...I hope. ;)

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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by dogman dan » Feb 13 2014 3:25pm

Glad you saw this, I was thinking of sending you a PM to go look.

Also forgot to mention, they seem to catch no more wind than the old setup. A hard sidewind will still be a bitch, but at least that pressure will be lower too.

I could detect no increase in wh/mi. So goody, I didn't just kill my range with the big boxes. I knew I wanted to keep them slim, but they still easily fit gallon jugs, my camp stove, etc.

I think I'm just dreaming that I'd be healthy enough to try it, but I keep looking at maps of the route to Phoenix, via Globe. Too far though I think. I'm looking more seriously at places I can ride a 150 mile loop in three days, two nights camped out.

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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by amberwolf » Feb 15 2014 5:04pm

dogman wrote:I could detect no increase in wh/mi. So goody, I didn't just kill my range with the big boxes. I knew I wanted to keep them slim, but they still easily fit gallon jugs, my camp stove, etc.

I think I'm just dreaming that I'd be healthy enough to try it, but I keep looking at maps of the route to Phoenix, via Globe. Too far though I think. I'm looking more seriously at places I can ride a 150 mile loop in three days, two nights camped out.
I'm not sure there's even enough charging places close enough together to do a trip from Las Cruces to Phoenix--you might have to pull a trailer with your generator on it. ;) That's assuming your body would last the ride, which it sounds like you're still not quite there yet. Though if you did manage to get here, I've got a room for you to recuperate in as long as ya need to (or I will, once the city quits nitpicking things to death and lets me move back in).


FWIW, I'm not sure there's much difference on my CrazyBIke2 with or without the pods on there (assuming they're empty, for acceleration power usage). I don't even think adding that "scoop" on the front when I covered up the headlight/turnsignals with "fairing" changed it much, though that was probably because adding the "fairing" around the rest of the front and middle frame compensated for it. I suspect if I redid the front stuff to be slimmer and more aero, it would shave a teeny bit off my power usage, and adding a tailbox would almost certainly improve things.

But most times, I don't go long enough distances to make enough difference to be worth the effort, especially now that I am not at the apartment anymore and don't have a 20-mile round trip to work (now it's just about 6 or 7 from Bill's, and only about 5 from my own place once I'm back there, and from my place there's so few long cruising sections and so many full stops/starts that the weight would matter much more than the aero).

As for your bike with sidewinds, I doubt they'd be any worse, givne that the shape of these is probably less turbulent than the bags?



EDIT added: BTW, if you wanna test it, you could build a small triangular section to add to the back of each tailbox out of coroplast, and see if your wh/mile improves over longer cruising distances.
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Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by dogman dan » Feb 16 2014 7:48am

That's a damn good suggestion. It's well known that a tailbox can really improve aero. It could also carry very light cargo, like your coat, or the bike cover. In front, it really does feel like the burble of air from my legs breaks up the drag on the front. It might help though, to make the front a bit more pointy when you ride into a quartering headwind. On a long tour, I mostly plan to sit till it stops blowing if riding west. Ride at night if I must.

Next time I remove the boxes, I am already going to make that diagonal cut on the front bigger. I just keep hooking my shoe on the box when I mount. So I will be making it a bit more pointy on the front face. Then up high on the front, I'm looking at devising some mounts for 1 liter or at least quart bottles. Likely something soft, like that same blue canvas screwed to the wood. That will slightly round the front edge.

Most of my wh/mi problem with that bike is just the weight though. I can ride very efficient if it's flat and no stops. But add some hill, especially really steep hill, or lots of stops, an the 150 pounds of weight really shows up on the CA.

I did 50 miles the other day on rural enough roads to have few stops, and on the flat spots I was easily getting 20 wh/mi traveling 16 mph. Then I got to an area with steep rolling hills, and bam, 30 wh/mi.

I have a theoretical 70 miles of range, but Safford to Globe is 79 miles. And it's a long uphill grind. I get a forget it dude look from my wife if I suggest she drive me to Phoenix and drop me off there, Downhill from Globe, I'd have 100 mile range on a day with some west wind. I have 25 ah of fairly new lico with a 21 ah real world capacity. Then another 20 ah of very old tired RC batteries that have at best 12 ah in them still. Just shy of a 40 pound battery load.

Bottom line, its just a dream anyway. I need a good rest every 3rd day, and 400 miles at 50 miles a day is 8 days. I don't think I can carry a good enough chair or bed to rest up out on the road, and a motel is way beyond my budget. When I built this thing, I was thinking take a week off from work, ride 100 mile days, and stay in motels. What I need is an ES buddy that lives in Safford. There was a guy in Bisbee, but I forget his name.

But I have good weather next week, and I'm going to see if I can go do a two night outing and survive. There is a nice state park with 15 dollar camping that comes with a plug 55 miles from the house. Two nights there is only 30 bucks, ride there, charge, do a 60 mile round trip from there, then return to charge again. Sounds like a lot for a 25 cent charge, but the camp has showers and stuff too.

I have range to ride as far as I have the strength to go, 50 miles is still my personal best since I got sick. If I carry all my old tired lico, I will have a solid 70 miles range on flat ground.

I'm looking a lot at maps, for where I can go with a stay in a state park that has electricity every other night. Minimize having to beg a plug that way. Then maybe by the third or fourth day be in Albuquerque where I have free places to stay and rest.

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pwd   100 W

100 W
Posts: 298
Joined: Oct 11 2011 12:01pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Dogmans Full Suspension Longtail Frankenbike.

Post by pwd » Feb 17 2014 8:51pm

I'm digging the bike. I love to see e-bikes that get well used!
Commuter/Street Build:
Rocky Mountain Element
Magic Pie 4 front + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ WCEC 18fet
em3ev 14S5P 30Q + 14S6P 25R pack
Build Thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286

Offroad Build:
2019 Rocky Mountain Blizzard 20
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 44T chain ring then 36T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette
em3ev 14S5P 30Q

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