Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stuff

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Farfle   1 MW

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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by Farfle » Nov 13 2012 4:01pm

That 5400 is a TANK for that amount of power you get out of it. I guess the Sevcon is no lightweight though, and bolted to a heatsink that is also pretty fat.

When I weighed my pack it included the fechter BMS, all the wiring and two sheets of aluminum, plus an entire roll of gorilla tape.

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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by oatnet » Nov 13 2012 5:25pm

Farfle wrote:That 5400 is a TANK for that amount of power you get out of it.
Yep, everything on this bike is seriously overbuilt for the mere 8kw I am putting INTO it during the current "Phase I" - but as posted earlier, it is built up like a TANK for "Phase II", where I swap controller/batteries and feed it 30kw in my quest to exceed 100mph. Looks like KV would limit this winding to 86mph on 144v though, right around the 81mph you are seeing. It is funny to think that a heavy-duty Outrunner build and a heavy-duty Hubbie build could end up being so similar in terms of weight, power, and top end. :D
When I weighed my pack it included the fechter BMS, all the wiring and two sheets of aluminum, plus an entire roll of gorilla tape.
Ah, that explains it - with LiFe I don't need weight of the BMS or complex paralleling/charging wiring harnesses, and your figure included the aluminum sheets/gorilla tape that would make my Pelican-cased weight a more fair comparison. How do you secure the pack to the frame? At any rate, that means I can still count on a saving a few pounds by going to a 144v lipo pack with the same WH, to offset the heavier 144v/400a controller (200a battery side).

-JD
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Kepler   1 GW

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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by Kepler » Nov 13 2012 7:53pm

oatnet wrote:
Am I correct in thinking the bomber is a 5405 winding in a 26"-27", I wonder how the "gearing" compares to a taller 5403 in a smaller 23.5" OD wheel. Great tip on the 120% throttle to get 50mph, I'll try that - I knew people had done that on the infineons, but I thought it was to get more amps into the motor, I didn't think it would add to my top end! :D

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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by oatnet » Nov 14 2012 1:53pm

Kepler wrote:Standard Bomber uses 5403 motor and has 24" wheels. Pack is 24S Li-ion bagged cells 18AH with BMS. 65A limit set in the controller. :D
Thanks for setting me straight, looks like I had a lot of misconceptions there. :oops: I had no idea my motor's gearing ended up so close to the Bomber's, gotta figure stealth knows what they are doing. Maybe I should try going from 100a to 65a and see how that affects drivability at 120% throttle!

After my last ride on the bike, I heard chafing, and realized that it was the plastic insert that goes between the phase wires and the axle (see picture), even though I specifically oiled it before re-installing it. I noticed that the insert was rotating, so the edge of the cutout I dremeled into it was pressing up against the phase wires, probably flopping back and forth with regen, so it could eventually pinch-cut the wire insulation and allow a short. I thought pressure from the dropouts would hold it in place, but I guess not. Thinking about drilling a hole in the removable dropout, inserting a piece of metal as a 'key', and drilling a matching hole in the plastic insert. I figure I should keep off the bike until I get that sorted :roll: but I might not have time until next weekend or the one after. :|

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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by Ypedal » Nov 14 2012 2:49pm

useless pieces of junk that clyte likes to re-invent every few years and never get right.. i throw them out every time i unpack a new motor.
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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by nicobie » Nov 15 2012 2:55pm

Ypedal wrote:useless pieces of junk that clyte likes to re-invent every few years and never get right.. i throw them out every time i unpack a new motor.

Yep. It took me awhile but that's what I do now.
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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by oatnet » Nov 15 2012 3:50pm

Ypedal wrote:useless pieces of junk that clyte likes to re-invent every few years and never get right.. i throw them out every time i unpack a new motor.
nicobie wrote:Yep. It took me awhile but that's what I do now.
Huh. I never had problems with the plastics on my 1st gen x53xx's, I always ditched the plastic cap but never thought of pulling out the sleeve. When I pulled the sleeve out of the 54xx, it looked like the wire bundle was exposed for most of the length of the plastic insert. Is the wire bundle exposed that far on the xlytes you have ditched the sleeve on, or is it different because the 54xx is wider? Didn't you have concerns about the wire bundle lifting out of the slot in the axle, and rubbing against the side cover?

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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by oatnet » Nov 24 2012 6:35pm

oatnet wrote: Hmm :idea: . Ya know, I have a lot of spares from this project - the Green Norco Size L, Boxxer Forks, Fox rear shock, a fully built 54xx wheelset... All great hardware to have around for future projects, but maybe I should sell them off instead and free up space. :? Hmmm.
I decided to pull the trigger on listing the spares - if you like my bike and would like to clone your own version, now is your chance:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 31&t=45831

-JD
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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by oatnet » Mar 01 2013 2:17pm

From the first ride, it was clear that this bike needed more front brake than the 8" Avid Elixer disc I was using. I bought a bunch of 4-pot 9" gatorbrakes from Methods a few years back, that were intended for 2010 Zero motorcycles. I love Boxxer World Cup forks, but they don't place their brake caliper holder in an industry standard location, so I have to buy an adapter to mount brakes. Adapters are readily available for standard brakes, and I can even get them for the 8" Gatorbrake, but not the 9" Gatorbrake. If I wanted to use that brake, I needed to make an adapter, which is one of the things that lead me down the "CNC Mini Mill Conversion" that I put a build thread about.
If you want to see the making-of the part, CLICK HERE.
IMG_0087.JPG
Old 8" disk on top of the new 9" disk - cool pattern.
IMG_0087.JPG (136.53 KiB) Viewed 2671 times
IMG_0091.JPG
Notice how much wider the braking strip is on the 9" disk.
IMG_0091.JPG (138.25 KiB) Viewed 2671 times
IMG_0093.JPG
The 9" gatorbrake mounted using the adaptor I made - that is a lot of disk for a bicycle!
IMG_0093.JPG (103.2 KiB) Viewed 2671 times
IMG_0094.JPG
Another view
IMG_0094.JPG (75.88 KiB) Viewed 2671 times
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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by gensem » Mar 02 2013 4:50am

Oatnet, whats your wheelbase atm?
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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by Andje » Mar 02 2013 4:39pm

Oatnet, I am about to copy your battery box build. I'll probably be ordering the same racing clamps; I wanted to know, how restricted is the turning radius by those clamps? they look like they hit the frame like a bumper would, and I just wondered if it was a noticeable loss of turn ability?
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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by oatnet » Mar 02 2013 10:29pm

Hi Gensem!

It is a hair over 49", axle to axle. :D

Hi Andje!

While moving/riding I haven't an issue, but walking it around I am aware of the restriction. A bare double-crown fork will demonstrate about 90% of the restriction. I was careful to route wires away from the pinch points.

-JD
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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by oatnet » Apr 04 2013 1:02pm

I forgot to document earlier that turning the controller up to 120% per Kepler's advice gave me a top end of 51+ mph, and really highlighted that I needed better brakes. Recently I freed up some vacation time to finish sorting out the Norco. The brake adaptor was one of the recent challanges holding things up, but I also needed to sort out the rShunt for my methods controller.

I bought a CycleAnalyst v2.2 CA-SA from someone here on E:S in May 2011, but never installed it. I tried to use it to calibrate the method controller's shunt, but it the results were not making sense (I later found out it is defective) so I decided to add a third CA to the mix:
IMG_0831.JPG
IMG_0831.JPG (166.51 KiB) Viewed 2334 times
I have two other shunts I had cut off from V1 CA-SA, but I could only find one of them, and the rshunt value on it rubbed off. I checked the thread for known shunt values, and found my own post documenting that several of the V1 CA-SA I bought all had an rshunt of 1.399 (lo-Mode), so I used that value, and the results appeared to be in the right ballpark.

Testing with the third CA gave me an rshunt of .2418 (Hi-Mode) for the Methods Controller. The CA-SA I was working on seemed to have an rShunt of 1.50 (lo-Mode), but sometimes it worked and sometimes the values were wildly incorrect, so I determined it was defective, probably the shunt itself. I'll buy a replacement from ebikes.ca, and re-calibrate the Norco CA again.

Now that I could measure discharge with reasonable accuracy, I could take it for an official Maiden Voyage. Since I was baselining the pack on this trip I'd be monitoring the CA for rapid voltage drops (indicating a bad cell), and figured I'd use a mental LVC of about 60v (2.5v/cell) to terminate the test. The current pack is (24) of the a123 16ah cells I got from cell_man with 1,279wh capacity, so I hoped to get 1,023wh from it with an 80% DOD.

I stayed close to home and used an aggressive duty cycle, running up and down hills, stopping at lots of intersections and accellerating hard away. I used the "street" preset with current/speed limits that I programmed into the CA-V3, as the "Unlimited" preset would pull 10kw and make it hard to track the voltage decline as the battery discharged.

The throttle became unfcomfortable so I need to re-engineer it. The brake adaptor I milled worked perfectly, the 9" Zero Moto rotor gave better grip than the 8", but I had to pump the Gatorbrakes lever a few times before each stop to build up pressure, so I guess I need to change the fluid. The chain is only long enough to use the middle front chainring, I need to make it longer to accomodate the large front chainring so I can pedal at speed. When I was done, the motor was hot but touchable, the methods controller was merely warm, and the battery packs were warm but not hot or in any way puffy.

Dispayed Amps peaked at 152.5a, and I pulled an indicated 1078.2 wh when the pack had dropped to 63v under load. The aggressive duty cycle gave me 17.4 miles at 61whm, I expect more range from my "eBike" preset, and less from my "Unlimited' preset. The Kill-a-watt said the subsequent charge cycle used 1,450 wh, which would indicate that the cheap chinese charger is about 74% efficient, better than I expected. Anyhow, here are a few pics from after the ride, I guess the only major change is the front brake.

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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by Doctorbass » Apr 04 2013 1:44pm

That's an awsome built !!

Great Work Oatnet !

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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by litespeed » Apr 04 2013 9:21pm

That is one clean build. The routing of the wires is excellent.

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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by adam333 » Apr 07 2013 8:54pm

Agreed, very nice build.

I also understand why some peoples use a double front disk break. It seems needed on the norco.

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