Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stuff

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ohzee   1 MW

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by ohzee » Dec 25 2011 12:15am

man that looks nice

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Andje   10 kW

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by Andje » Dec 25 2011 12:20am

amazing. i want some.
i want a cnc machine and a workshop too.
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=35652

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fractal   1 kW

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by fractal » Dec 25 2011 12:29am

awesome work. did you get your cromotor yet? i cant wait to see it locked in those things!
Norco A-line DH bike with :
«cromotor/hubzilla» from http://www.greyborg.com/
24s 3p Lipo (100v, 15ah)
Methods LVC/HVC cell level protection system http://www.methtek.com
24 fet infineon controller made by Lyen, heavily moded by Methods
8awg harness by Icecube57
17 inch moped rims with Michelin Gazelle tires by John Rob Holmes http://www.holmeshobbies.com
other stuff http://www.ebikes.ca

details
http://www.helicamguide.com

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by dbaker » Dec 25 2011 8:25pm

Very nice :D

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oatnet   10 MW

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by oatnet » Dec 30 2011 1:25pm

My 9.26kv CroMotor has been sold, and I'll consider the 12.98kv CroMotor when/if Accountant gets them in. Most likely the first high-speed candidate to arrive will be the 5403 supermotor from the group buy. I figured that in the meantime, I'll run the old-school 5305 I used to test-fit the dropouts, which won't be any faster than the 9.26kv CroMotor, but it should still be quite peppy on 7-8kw and give the dropouts a good, thorough test.

I continue to be thrilled by the dropouts Magudaman made, every time I see them. I can't order v2.0 from Justin until I get the 54xx's in or order another CroMo, so if you folks need one you should talk to him before I flood him with business. :lol:

Things are starting to take shape. I was concerned that a regular stem that merely clamps onto the steerer tube might slip from the forces generated by higher speeds, so I wanted to go with an integrated stem that bolts directly to the upper crown on a RockShox Boxxer. The direct-mounts I found started at about $60, but I found this Funn model on chain-reaction cycles for a little less. While I dithered, the price dropped to only 29.74, and they had a free-shipping holiday sale, so I got (2). Shipping was from the UK to the US, so it took 14 calendar days (including xmas), and unfortunately they didn't put any padding inside the box, but despite two heavy, metal objects bouncing around against each other through an overseas journey, they appear OK. In the long run, I got (2) for less than the price of 1.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=64879
Image

I also wanted to use the 25.4mm On-One "Mary" handlebars I've become come to love. The black mary's are aluminum though, I wanted the stronger CroMo model, which comes in silver. I test-fit it upside down and I like the cafe-racer look, although I might paint it black.

I have a few sets of Gatorbrake 6-pots that I bought from Method's super-cheap sale a few years back. They were made for Zero 2009/2010 Motorcycles, 9" disk front and 8" rear. Boxxer forks require a special adaptor to mount standard brakes :roll: so I have been looking for one that would let me use the gatorbrake on 8". On a whim, I test fit the existing Gatorbrake on a boxxer, and to my amazement, it fit perfectly with a few of the included shims. So instead I ordered a pair of 9" disks from Zero to use on the front of each bike. It has been a few days, and they haven't shipped yet, so I hope they still have stock! 9" should look amazing on this bike, especially when I use smaller moped rims.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/ind ... ucts_id=37
Image

The bottom bracket from one of one of my TF frame's fit perfectly, and I'm waiting for a crank-puller to arrive so I can use the crank from a different TF bike. Tonight I'll try to put a Hookworm and cluster on the x5. My method's 100v/100a controller is going on a seatpost-rack, then I sort out the phase/hall pinouts, mount the battery pack on the front, and this test-mule will be a roller!

-JD
IMG_0342.JPG
Here is how it looked last night! The brake handle, dangling from the center of the bike, demonstrates how absurdly massive the downtube is on the A-Line. The forks look much nicer now too, since I stripped of the giant red BOXXER labels.
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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by MadRhino » Dec 30 2011 4:58pm

That is gonna be a beast, and a very neat build.
I too, considered direct mounts for the handlebar, but none were available long enough.
The hadling with fork mount batteries, is perfect when the stem is long enough to be on top of the battery weight.

Looking forward to see it ride.
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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by Alan B » Dec 30 2011 6:07pm

You might edit the title of this thread in post #1 because it no longer applies.

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oatnet   10 MW

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by oatnet » Dec 30 2011 6:16pm

Alan B wrote:You might edit the title of this thread in post #1 because it no longer applies.
That remains to be seen. 8)

-JD
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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by waynebergman » Dec 30 2011 8:56pm

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences with the fork mounted battery pack. At first look I would just automatically think that the weight would be too high and I would not like the feel of weighted front end but I am sure you have thought things through and nice to hear its working for you. I will follow your thread with interest and may try and place one of my two battery packs up front as well.

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by oatnet » Jan 04 2012 1:31pm

Thanks Wayne! Yep, the front battery is definitely working for me for a bunch of builds now, I can't see going back, although I would be intrigued to try the frame-mounted version that Gensem is working on.

A little more work last weekend, tire/cluster/chain/crank on, plus I got the battery box mounted. The Upside-down handlebars did not allow enough space for the battery box, so right-side-up they went. I mounted the Luminator under the battery box, you can see it best in the first picture. I have 1.5kw of a123 goodness sitting in that battery box right now!

-JD
IMG_0418.JPG
Last shot with the handlebars upside down. I didn't have the ergon grips all the way on to the handlebars, so they look extra-wide. Note the luminator under the headtube, between the stanchions of the front fork.
IMG_0418.JPG (77.24 KiB) Viewed 2993 times
IMG_0419.JPG
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IMG_0424.JPG
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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by Kepler » Jan 04 2012 4:13pm

1.5kW of capacity. Nice 8) . I think this is about the right capacity for these high powered setups. Lets you ride them hard and still have decent range. I run 1.5kW usable in my Bomber and even when belting it around like a moto, I still get a solid 30 miles out of it. :twisted:

The 54xx motors on high V are just amazing. What I find most impressive is the acceleration from 30mph to 50mph. Also economy can be very reasonable with the right riding style. I have no problems pulling 100 miles out 1.5kW if I need to. :mrgreen:

So what is the weight of the box fully loaded with A123's? I will be interested to see what the all up weight of the bike comes to. 90lb possible?

I missed where you plan to mount the controller too.
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Andje   10 kW

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by Andje » Jan 04 2012 4:51pm

he said controller on a seatpost rack i believe.
Is that the larger of the Pelican cases? I'm looking at doing a 36s2p lipo box in exactly the same way. I just want a mental reference on the size of the boxes.
edit; never mind, I surmise it must be the larger, the im2075
http://www.pelican.com/cases_detail_sto ... ase=iM2075

So that is mounted with just three clamps on each side, and is not mounted in anyway to the handlebars? Is the plastic of the Pelican cases strong enough to not deform over time where it is bolted to the bike?
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=35652

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by Gordo » Jan 04 2012 5:13pm

Mounted only to the forks as are the handlebars. Go back to the beginning of the thread. :mrgreen:
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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by gensem » Jan 04 2012 5:32pm

You can also mount to the headtube... at least thats what im planning.

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Andje   10 kW

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by Andje » Jan 04 2012 5:41pm

Mounted only to the forks as are the handlebars. Go back to the beginning of the thread.
yeah i know. Im picturing the moment as the front shock hits the ground. The bolts going though the box are horizontal to the moment. So I'm picturing the holes the bolts go through in the plastic case and picturing the tops of the holes taking the force and slowly fracturing the plastic. If you mounted the top of the box attached somehow to the bars the mounting point is top down and in line with the force that's all; I just wanted his opinion on the longevity specifically of the holes through the pelican case that attack to the three clamps around his shocks that I can see in the picture since I know he's done it before.
I'm almost sold on copying this battery mount exactly, just using 12 8ah 6s nanos.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... _Pack.html
Looking at all the dimensions I'm not sure if it will fit. It will weigh at least 30 pounds though, so if the bolts cant hold then I need to rethink already.
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=35652

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oatnet   10 MW

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by oatnet » Jan 04 2012 9:06pm

Andje wrote:Im picturing the moment as the front shock hits the ground. The bolts going though the box are horizontal to the moment.
The moment describes how the box keeps the shocks loaded, but it is described by two vectors, one perpendicular to the ground (gravity) and the other forward. The one perpendicular to the ground is by far the most significant. However, the headtube leans back at an angle, so most of the time the box is resting against the clamps, and the bolts just keep it from sliding or lifting off. I also used large washers, inside and out, to distribute the force across a larger section of plastic. Google will show pelicans having a good history of holding heavier weights as moto boxes. Here are pics of the internals of another one:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 30#p470443
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Andje   10 kW

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by Andje » Jan 04 2012 9:34pm

hmm yes thank you. That photo of the washers is exactly what I was wondering about; i had seen that series before but forgotten it I guess. Well fair enough; I will assuredly look at some sort of similar solution as it seems to kill many fabrication birds with about half a stone.
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=35652

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by oatnet » Jan 05 2012 12:37pm

Kepler wrote:1.5kW of capacity. Nice 8) . I think this is about the right capacity for these high powered setups. Lets you ride them hard and still have decent range. I run 1.5kW usable in my Bomber and even when belting it around like a moto, I still get a solid 30 miles out of it. :twisted:
So what is the weight of the box fully loaded with A123's? I will be interested to see what the all up weight of the bike comes to. 90lb possible?

I missed where you plan to mount the controller too.
Hi Kepler!

I missed this post... :oops:

30 aggressive miles would be enough to tire me out, really glad to hear that is what you are getting out of 1.5kw on your bomber, that only gets me 11-12 miles on my Vectrix. Right now I have (3) 8s/20ah packs, which I think were about 7.5lbs each, and the box/clamps weighs about 4 lbs, so 26/27lbs. I would like to squeeze in (4) more cells for 28s/100v, which would bring total weight up to @30lbs. That breaks down to about 5lb per clamp. I stole this box from another build that used 8 clamps, which would have been only 3.75lbs a clamp, but 5lb is totally reasonable, heck even 4 clamps would only be 7.5lbs/clamp. Anyhow, 90lbs sounds reasonable, 30lb battery, 30lb hub motor, the frame/fork is heavier than I have used in the past so it is hard to project.

Original plan was to mount the controller on a seatpost-mounted rack. However, it is clear that the rack will interfere with the rear tire. I have another solution I am working, hope it will be as elegant as I envision.
andje wrote:I will assuredly look at some sort of similar solution as it seems to kill many fabrication birds with about half a stone.
That's a nice way of putting it!

-JD
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Kepler   1 GW

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by Kepler » Jan 05 2012 4:16pm

Those bagged A123's are surprisingly close to the weight of LiPo's. Where do you get those from?

My LiPo's alone weigh 26.4lb. That is 15 x 6S 5000mah 20C Turnigy packs (weight of each pack on my digital scales is 800g)
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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by oatnet » Jan 05 2012 5:45pm

Kepler wrote:Those bagged A123's are surprisingly close to the weight of LiPo's.

I've tried to make that point time and again, but the LiPo Bullies yell louder. :lol: It is far preferred to compare canned LiFe cells with pouched LiPo, IMO the weight of the cans makes a huge difference. Also the weight of the extra wiring to join LiPo packs, and the weight of BMS/HVC/LVC etc that a LiFe pack wouldn't need, should narrow or eliminate the gap.

The a123 prisimatics have very similar weight to HK Lipo, 30c rating, but with an inert cathode instead of one that is prone to thermal runaway. HK LiPo's have marginally lower IR, but IMO their main benefit is that they are 40% smaller, if volume is your design constraint. So far on my builds, I run out of places to put weight before I run out of space to put it. However, when I build a pack for 144v testing/exhibition, a 144v20ah pack of any chemistry would be way too heavy for my design constraints. Since I can't get I can't get 5ah or 10ah a123 prisimatics I might I might leverage LiPo's modularity and build a 36s/40s 5ah/10ah LiPo pack.
Kepler wrote:Where do you get those from? My LiPo's alone weigh 26.4lb. That is 15 x 6S 5000mah 20C Turnigy packs (weight of each pack on my digital scales is 800g)
By my count, your pack has =15*5ah*(6s*4.2v)=1890wh in it. Mine has 24*3.65v*20ah=1752wh, a little less. On the "Spot-welding" thread below, I have a pic of this Pelican box with the 24s in it, plus (2) more clamps than I used here, weighing in at 27.4lbs.

Oatnet's Spot-Welding a123 Cells

I got a whole bunch from cell_man, he was out for a while, I think he has access to the 20ah cells again, I haven't seen the 16ah version anywhere else. Here is a thread of people checking out vendors of the a123 prisimatics.
a123 20ah Cells Source thread

-JD
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153v DUNE BUGGY © 164v Vectrix E-Moto © 72v Norco A-line/x5403 © 60v Specialized Enduro Comp/BMC © 72v x5tracycle © 48v TF IO/BMC © 36v Kepler FrictionDrive © Spot-Welding a123 © Pelican Front Packs © Vectrix Battery Replacement © MORE !!


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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by fractal » Jan 05 2012 8:31pm

how much a 100v 15 ah ( fully charged ) weigh?
Norco A-line DH bike with :
«cromotor/hubzilla» from http://www.greyborg.com/
24s 3p Lipo (100v, 15ah)
Methods LVC/HVC cell level protection system http://www.methtek.com
24 fet infineon controller made by Lyen, heavily moded by Methods
8awg harness by Icecube57
17 inch moped rims with Michelin Gazelle tires by John Rob Holmes http://www.holmeshobbies.com
other stuff http://www.ebikes.ca

details
http://www.helicamguide.com

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Kepler   1 GW

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by Kepler » Jan 06 2012 2:31am

oatnet wrote:
Kepler wrote:Those bagged A123's are surprisingly close to the weight of LiPo's.

I've tried to make that point time and again, but the LiPo Bullies yell louder. :lol: It is far preferred to compare canned LiFe cells with pouched LiPo, IMO the weight of the cans makes a huge difference. Also the weight of the extra wiring to join LiPo packs, and the weight of BMS/HVC/LVC etc that a LiFe pack wouldn't need, should narrow or eliminate the gap.

The a123 prisimatics have very similar weight to HK Lipo, 30c rating, but with an inert cathode instead of one that is prone to thermal runaway. HK LiPo's have marginally lower IR, but IMO their main benefit is that they are 40% smaller, if volume is your design constraint. So far on my builds, I run out of places to put weight before I run out of space to put it. However, when I build a pack for 144v testing/exhibition, a 144v20ah pack of any chemistry would be way too heavy for my design constraints. Since I can't get I can't get 5ah or 10ah a123 prisimatics I might I might leverage LiPo's modularity and build a 36s/40s 5ah/10ah LiPo pack.
Kepler wrote:Where do you get those from? My LiPo's alone weigh 26.4lb. That is 15 x 6S 5000mah 20C Turnigy packs (weight of each pack on my digital scales is 800g)
By my count, your pack has =15*5ah*(6s*4.2v)=1890wh in it. Mine has 24*3.65v*20ah=1752wh, a little less. On the "Spot-welding" thread below, I have a pic of this Pelican box with the 24s in it, plus (2) more clamps than I used here, weighing in at 27.4lbs.

Oatnet's Spot-Welding a123 Cells

I got a whole bunch from cell_man, he was out for a while, I think he has access to the 20ah cells again, I haven't seen the 16ah version anywhere else. Here is a thread of people checking out vendors of the a123 prisimatics.
a123 20ah Cells Source thread

-JD
Missed those threads. Interesting stuff and good work on the spot welding.

Those bagged A123 are probably the best allround battery available at the moment. However availability, cost, and work required to put together a good pack still makes them difficult to tackle for the average punter. I think I will stick with my LiPos for the time being. Just clocked up 5000km on the Bomber. Thats a full year of riding at every opportunity (2 to 3 times a week). Up to 130 cycles on this set of LiPo's with no noticeable loss in performance or capacity. Not bad for being bulk charged without balancing for most of there life. Will be interesting see just how long they actually last.
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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by johnrobholmes » Jan 06 2012 7:57am

Are those box mounts the chassis weight mounts? I have a set here but they seem so much bigger than yours.

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by dbaker » Jan 06 2012 11:04am

Kepler,

Please remind me your pack voltage and capacity. IIRC you were running over 100V.What controller are you running?

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Re: Cromotor vs 54xx - Fight!

Post by Garrick_s » Jan 06 2012 12:31pm

I might get flamed for this comment, but this was looking to be a great build with all this time spent on some beautiful rear dropouts and a great bike as a platform, but then this big, obtrusive lunch box gets strapped to the front forks... :cry:

I have seen it more and more lately here too.
Grant it, I do understand why.....no room anywhere else.
And the Pelican boxes are great boxes for that application, but the location just sucks.

Seeing this build really got me thinking about a safe enclosure for these types of cells that can be held in a backpack.
NO idea how much these prismatic cells weigh once all assembled, but they look like they could be arranged and enclosed into a backpack and free up that bike so it can be ridden the way it was designed to be ridden.

Please Oatnet, do not take this little rant personally. I love your work.
Just commenting on the handle bar lunch box theory in general I guess.
Current ride: Stink-E_rev B / 9C 8x8 / 87V and loving it.

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