Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525 + HD video

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AussieJester   100 GW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by AussieJester » Dec 23 2011 4:26am

The bomber is 45 kilo Paul same weight as my blue cruiser...you will come in 5 kilo lighter not 15... ROFLMFA off at
you thinking the rear wheel will weigh ONLY 10 kilo... didnt factor in the rim and spokes or give
a correct weight of the frock :P ... **Un-Subscribed** and uninterested ..

KiM

p.s you will need to heat treat the aluminium after you modify the frame
it will loose over half its strength otherwise, just so you know frock boi :mrgreen: :P :lol:

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Timma2500   1 kW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by Timma2500 » Dec 23 2011 4:50am

voicecoils wrote: For weight reference, my HT motor with 13/14ga spokes, Sun MTX 39 rim, Hookworm 26x2.5", tube and Tuffy Lite liner weigh 10.24 kg
Sozz Kim, i was 0.24kg out :wink:
AussieJester wrote:The bomber is 45 kilo Paul same weight as my blue cruiser...you will come in 5 kilo lighter not 15...
Their site lists the Bomber at 53kg mate, still puts me around 13kg lighter :P


Paul :D
Norco Aline / carbon fibre frame mod / 12t Mac / 12fet / 23kg

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sico   100 W

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by sico » Dec 23 2011 6:29am

AussieJester wrote:T **Un-Subscribed** and uninterested ..
Paul, now that KiM is gone can you tell me how much your cyclone bike weighs? I got my 9C hubbie down to 25kg, and there was some *discussion* (read AJ baiting me :P ) about whether yours was lighter or not?

Cheers,

Simon.

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Philistine   1 MW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by Philistine » Dec 23 2011 6:49am

^Don't mean to go OT from Sico's Q, so please answer that first Timmah, but I couldn't help picking on this:
18fet will likely burn this motor in quick order unless you ride nice.
Hmm so if i go for a 12fet, i risk blowing it up if i get too throttle happy and carried away. If i go for the 18fet, i risk burning up the motor? Would the 18fet supply the current in a more agressive manor?
A higher fet controller won't burn your motor any faster, it is just that it will be able to feed more current if that is what you set it to do. In my opinion you should always run the biggest controller you can fit on your bike. It is irrelevant what size your controller is, it simply matters what current you feed it for how long. But why run your controller at the limits of its current capability (unless space is a premium)?

I only note this because I have seen this said on other threads (the inference that a bigger controller is harder on a motor per se), and I don't understand the inference. Obviously having a bigger controller will allow more current, which if you push it too far will smoke a motor, but why not have a controller that can take your motor to its limits, rather than having unused current ability of your motor (because the controller can't feed the current). I can understand the size argument, but personally I run 24 fet controllers on all my builds (and I just find a way to make the controller fit), I would rather have a shoe box sized controller fitted to my bike, but know that I can max hardcore my motor if I want and never worry about blowing a controller.

It is true the HT will be relatively easy on the controller, but I have gotten my 12 Fet controllers pretty damn toasty on 50amp settings with HS, X5 and 9c motors (I do weigh 95kg though and I run WOT all the time and I am allergic to pedalling). My advice is if you intend to go over 40amps, go 18 Fet if it will fit, but 12 will do the job if space is a premium. Just my two cents.

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Timma2500   1 kW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by Timma2500 » Dec 23 2011 10:00am

sico wrote:Paul, now that KiM is gone can you tell me how much your cyclone bike weighs? I got my 9C hubbie down to 25kg, and there was some *discussion* (read AJ baiting me ) about whether yours was lighter or not?
In its current spec with 150mm travel coil forks and 2.35" dirt tyres, i think its about 27kg from memory. With the 1.2" slicks and 140mm rockshox pike air forks, its about 25kg so theres not much in it simon!
You are now armed with frock motor ammunition against Kim :wink:

Philistine: Pick away mate as i really wasn't sure if there was a notable difference in the way the 12 and 18 fet controllers supplied power to the motor (the 12 fet being milder than the 18). What you say makes perfect sense and yes i agree it'd be best to go with the bigger controller so as to not tax it as much per amps delivered. Given i'm looking at running 60a if not a little more, then maybe an 18 fet is the way to go. I am light - 67kg and love to pedal to assist power and range so maybe the motor will be ok with this. I'll just have to be mindful during those times of hard sustained WOT or accelleration that i'll need to keep an eye on the motor temps. Cheers bud :)

Well i need to be up in 2hrs to go to the airport so i bid you all farewell again... Zzzz


Paul :D
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gwhy!   1 MW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by gwhy! » Dec 23 2011 1:10pm

There is no reason why a 12fet modded controller can not do 100A with a hub motor but if you want to be on the safe side 80A is more than doable, I have run 80A on a 6fet and a 12fet for long periods with a rc motor with no ill effects.

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by cell_man » Dec 24 2011 4:52am

I'd say 60A is 18fet territory if you want to have good reliability. No point pushing a 12 fet beyond what it can safely deliver.
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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by gwhy! » Dec 24 2011 7:55am

cell_man wrote:I'd say 60A is 18fet territory if you want to have good reliability. No point pushing a 12 fet beyond what it can safely deliver.

2 years at 80A on a 6 fet i would say thats pretty reliable wouldnt you ? no reason why a 12fet cant do it.

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full-throttle   10 MW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by full-throttle » Dec 27 2011 6:14am

Timma2500 wrote:Their site lists the Bomber at 53kg
Mine is 43.8kg with HS motor and other changes. Could bring it down another 3kg by changing the rear shock to air-sprung one.

You should get yours down to 30kg

re: 12-fet controllers
Mine is 70A peak 12-fet sensorless, heavily modified. Barely gets warm. It's the motor I worry about :roll:

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Timma2500   1 kW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by Timma2500 » Jan 08 2012 10:18am

I'm still unsure which way to go controller wise, everyone has valid points and real world experience regarding this decision so i'll mull it over for a little longer yet 'till i have the coin to purchase one...

Nothing to really update 'cept some parts came in. Tyres, hd tubes, grips and renthal chainring arrived:
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ODI half grips / X0 shifter
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34T Renthal chainring
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Super Tacky 2.7" Minion - front
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60A Hard compound 2.7" Minion - rear
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And some existing parts i had lying around:
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WTB Devo carbon / titanium seat, carbon seatpost
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RaceFace bash ring / titanium chainring bolts / Shimano Saint cranks
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The bashring i already had, the cranks came with the frame.
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M3 with more parts added
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full-throttle wrote:Timma2500 wrote:
Their site lists the Bomber at 53kgMine is 43.8kg with HS motor and other changes. Could bring it down another 3kg by changing the rear shock to air-sprung one.

You should get yours down to 30kg
I'm not too concerned with weight on this bike though if i went to a 180mm single crown airsprung fork, Marzocchi Rocco air shock and only a 10ah lipo i could save around 5 - 6kg in pork but theres over a $1.3k in forks and shock there so i'll stick with what i've got for now...
full-throttle wrote:It's the motor I worry about :roll:
Thats my main concern too, i'd rather have to replace a controller than a complete hub motor...



Paul :D
Norco Aline / carbon fibre frame mod / 12t Mac / 12fet / 23kg

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Dlogic   1 kW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by Dlogic » Jan 09 2012 3:41pm

Hi there, you might want to check out my HT motor pimp thread under:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 30&t=34817

Basically these motors are crap!!!! At least when compared to the X5. Ok, not as heavy, but noisy and weak. I got so disappointed when doing my test rides with this motor powering my stealth bomber, that i reprogrammed my 24 FET Lyen controller for an output of 5 Kw. The results where as follows.

1. The torque is not even near the X5 5403.
2. The motors windings melted after only 3.7 Km.
3. The top speed was 72 Km.

My conclusion:

1. All the time spent to improve this motor was nothing but a waste.
2. The minute you go for 5 Kw´s your motors lifespan will be reduced to seconds.
3. Get an X5, it´s heavy, but size does matter. At least when you want power!! :evil:

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Ypedal   100 GW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by Ypedal » Jan 09 2012 3:52pm

Dlogic wrote:... Basically these motors are crap!!!! At least when compared to the X5. .
...
3. Get an X5, it´s heavy, but size does matter. At least when you want power!! :evil:
they are improvement, at 500w ( what 99% of them will run on ) ... but not at 5000 ! lol..
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http://www.ypedal.com/ES/ES.htm
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Kepler   1 GW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by Kepler » Jan 09 2012 4:24pm

I really think these motors really are a 3000 W motor. 4000W if you only use this for short periods at this level.

After a recent hard ride with me on my Bomber and a mate on a 4000W HT powered Fighter, outer casing as measured with a Fluke infrared heat gun was as follows.
HT=> 70 degC
X5405=> 65 degC

Both bikes were riden with a mix of fast straights and steep tracks with both bikes using quite a few periods of full throttle.
With my higher output, I would accelerate significantly quicker, but we basically stayed together over the period of the ride.

Not quote sure if that's a useful comparison but I figured it gives a bit of an idea of what to expect.
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full-throttle   10 MW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by full-throttle » Jan 09 2012 6:26pm

I'll 2nd what Kepler wrote

3kW - ok
4kW - you'd better know what you're doing
5kW - pushing your luck

Regardless of power it's the heat that kills them, so don't spend too long at low throttle

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Dlogic   1 kW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by Dlogic » Jan 10 2012 5:55am

Yup, figured that one out quickly. Just thought it would be good to write it here since this post is about a 5Kw bike. I'll stick to my X5 for the moment until something even better is discovered. Maybe there is allready but I just don't know yet. :-)

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by miro13car » Jan 11 2012 9:26am

Dlogic,
excellent summary of new HT motor from Clyte.
I was amazed to what extent you went to improve this HT!!!
You machined new axle?
What else you should do, rewind motor?
It surprises me that you call those improvements waste of time but I must agree with you.
It is not only that specs of this motor are so poor but quality of material namly enamel wind wires is worse , entry of wire into motor is a joke, bearings are the cheapest crap awailable, etc., etc..
I am sure at 1000W-2000W people are just wasting batteries Whours powering those HT/HS motors.
Maybe they are 80% efficient at 500W but nowhere near that efficient at over 1000W.
What always amaze me how high voltage people have to use to get meager 30-40 mph on them.

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Dlogic   1 kW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by Dlogic » Jan 11 2012 12:49pm

miro13car wrote:Dlogic,
excellent summary of new HT motor from Clyte.
I was amazed to what extent you went to improve this HT!!!
You machined new axle?
What else you should do, rewind motor?
It surprises me that you call those improvements waste of time but I must agree with you.
It is not only that specs of this motor are so poor but quality of material namly enamel wind wires is worse , entry of wire into motor is a joke, bearings are the cheapest crap awailable, etc., etc..
I am sure at 1000W-2000W people are just wasting batteries Whours powering those HT/HS motors.
Maybe they are 80% efficient at 500W but nowhere near that efficient at over 1000W.
What always amaze me how high voltage people have to use to get meager 30-40 mph on them.
Hey Man, that´s so right. I had that feeling too. All those amps just heated up the windings and didn´t really move me fast. The X5 is so different. But yes, the quality sucks!!!! It´s such a shame, because making these motors better is nothing out of this world. I´d love to rewire it. Is there any info on how to do it here? My windings are all baked together. It would take me hours to unfiddle everything. But one thing remains, this motor is for bikes, i´d like something that tends to be a bit more powerful. I was thinking of maybe ordering a kelly hub motor. Remove the rim they weld on and drill those 36 spoke holes. :D

I think my improvements are a waste of time, because there really is no need for a bigger axle. The standard phase wires are good for 3 Kw. More power means bigger wires, thus leading directly to the fabrication of a new axle to fit these wires. Since i´m no electronics guru, i made that axle and connected 10 awg wires to the 3 motor phases. Well, way to much power for these windings. :evil:

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by nieles » Jan 11 2012 1:17pm

if you want a big hubmotor, go with one of cromotors

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 13#p505113
towards the bottom

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Kepler   1 GW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by Kepler » Jan 11 2012 3:11pm

miro13car wrote: It surprises me that you call those improvements waste of time but I must agree with you.
It is not only that specs of this motor are so poor but quality of material namly enamel wind wires is worse , entry of wire into motor is a joke, bearings are the cheapest crap awailable, etc., etc..
I am sure at 1000W-2000W people are just wasting batteries Whours powering those HT/HS motors.
Maybe they are 80% efficient at 500W but nowhere near that efficient at over 1000W.
What always amaze me how high voltage people have to use to get meager 30-40 mph on them.
Although its not my favorite motor, I don't think the build quality is any worse then other hub motors out there. Lots of very satisfied owners out there.
In relation to efficiency, why do you say its no good over 1000W? As long as the motor is spinning at a decent RPM, I can't see any reason why the efficiency should drop off. Sure, continuous load above say 2000W will start heating things up and reduce efficiency but below this, I cant see that there would be any major losses to contend with. The CA simulator certainly doesn't so any problems.

Also I have found the speed increase to be proportional to the voltage just like any other hub I have tested.

I think its important not to write a motor just because it failed at 5kW. Sure the build quality could always be better but they are built to a price. Bearings might be low quality, but 95% of users would never know the difference.
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Dlogic   1 kW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by Dlogic » Jan 12 2012 2:09am

Hi Kepler,

You got yourself a point here. For what it was designed for it's good enough. :-) For those who need more power there are other options.

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by miro13car » Jan 12 2012 9:11am

symulation is only software simulation in real world out there there is different ...
Was this graph created from riding experience?? -
'bmno.
You cannot simulate real world to the last detail.
If quality of enamel wire is crap, worse than on X5, what are the consequences of this?
Very serious, because motor will perform until isolation breakdown much faster than on X5.
HT really consume only 1050W of power at 50km/hour??
Really? in real world?
Are you sure the actual graph shows which exactely HT ???
, ever heard of horrble inconsistency of China-brand production , what you see might be a graph of sample HT motor, doesn't actually mean is your HT you got months after graph was created.
I know this for fact, ask cellman he saw a lot of China-brand "production facility".
If I see those video shots of CA while riding are you sure will they confirm what on the graph???
From all threads about HT/HS is claer - do not use at very least without fixing wire entry.
Do you have similar problem on X5 , NO.
If this is not inferor product so what is?

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Dlogic   1 kW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by Dlogic » Jan 13 2012 12:39am

Phew, my intention never was to start an avalanche here. However all this discussion leads to a simple conclusion. There's a strong demand for a good motor. After trying, without sucess, to order the X5, I wrote the guys from Cromotor. After only 2 emails I sent the money via paypal and should receive their engine by the end of next week. If it's as good as they state, my current build should really tear up the trails. :-)

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by miro13car » Jan 13 2012 12:02pm

no avalanche here ,just constructive critique.
What are the origins of Cromotor?
Do they build it from scratch in Croatia?
As I said before the best motors in terms of mechanical and electrical design and manufacture are
Sold in ready to install systems with propertary batteries and display interfaces and selling just motors from those kits
Would not make sense ,because they are software integrated with battery and display.

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by Kepler » Jan 13 2012 3:51pm

Hi Miro,
Without trying to get into a useless unproductive exchange, my point was that we need to be careful not to write a motor off especially if it has been used in a manor not intended by the manufacturer. We push the limits on this forum and by doing so, quickly discover at what point things start to break. This collective information is then used by the greater community to make informed decisions on how hard they want to push the envelopment.

I Have now worked with 3 HT motors (HT3540). All have operated flawlessly even at 3000 to 4000W. Maybe I am just lucky :)
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Dlogic   1 kW

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Re: 5kw Intense M3

Post by Dlogic » Jan 14 2012 6:59am

Hi Kepler,

that´s the good thing about ES. Working with stuff the normal way is the best option to prevent frustration and anger. However mankind is never satisfied with the achived. It worked well at 3 Kw. Great, so now let´s try 4. Still goin strong. Wow, let´s go for 5! :evil:

I was never disappointed when the motor died on me. This is the only way of finding the limits. Since i want more power the next logical consequence was to order the cromotor. They sent it out allready, so in a few days i´ll see if it can take 120 amps at 100 volts. This is not meant to be the continuos power setup. Only a short burst, out of plain curiosity. :D Today a friend of mine and myself will pick up this bike:

Image

The gas engine will be removed and then pedals, a hub motor and the rohloff speedhub will be built in. Well, at least that´s the basic idea behind the project. A little early maybe to post it here, but if we ever get it running we´ll open a thread here of course.

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