Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525 + HD video

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Timma2500   1 kW

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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by Timma2500 » Feb 09 2012 11:35am

Dlogic: It was a shame your HT burned up so quickly after you spent so long tricking it up :( I too will consider getting a CroMo if the HT bites the dust however hopefully it won't come to that!

Miro13car: Yeah the HT's aren't a perfect motor but really, what is? :roll: There are compromises on every single motor available and always will be... Just as there will be manufacturing tolerance differences with every motor or batch of motors from pretty much all manufacturers regardless of their origin or quality level.
As for simulators, i see them in the same light as a vehicle dyno - no two dynos ever read the exact same power and therefore should only be used as a guide and this is how a sim should be treated, as a guide because as you say, they can't simulate every variable we find in real life :)
full-throttle wrote: Regardless of power it's the heat that kills them, so don't spend too long at low throttle
Hehe, i don't intend to!
full-throttle wrote:I'll 2nd what Kepler wrote

3kW - ok
4kW - you'd better know what you're doing
5kW - pushing your luck
I think i'll set it up for 4kw. This will just be peaks ofcourse and given i pedal alot, am lightweight and won't be doing any or many hill climbing with it, at a pinch i'd say it should be ok. I've found some reversable heat temp labels in the 30-90deg celcious range to stick on and would like to experiment with some drilled covers and cans of freezing spray similar to what we use to ease burns in the welding industry. My idea is to spray the windings through the drilled covers if the motor is starting to get too hot. Its just a crazy idea for now :wink:
Kepler wrote:I really think these motors really are a 3000 W motor. 4000W if you only use this for short periods at this level.

After a recent hard ride with me on my Bomber and a mate on a 4000W HT powered Fighter, outer casing as measured with a Fluke infrared heat gun was as follows.
HT=> 70 degC
X5405=> 65 degC

Both bikes were riden with a mix of fast straights and steep tracks with both bikes using quite a few periods of full throttle.
With my higher output, I would accelerate significantly quicker, but we basically stayed together over the period of the ride.

Not quote sure if that's a useful comparison but I figured it gives a bit of an idea of what to expect.
Thanks Kepler, i believe the comparison is relevant but the result not surprising, especially the temperature difference. These HT's are known to be a distant 2nd place to their X5 big brothers when it comes to coping with heat (and power output) but i'm ok with that and just need to stay mindful of it when out on the trail :)

Dlogic: What sort of bike is that you pictured? It kind of looks like a KTM but i suspect its a brand i've not seen before. How has your friend got on with the conversion?


Nothing else to update on this build yet, the motor arrived but i'm yet to order spokes, batteries, controller, Saint brakes, freewheel or CA yet.
Infact i'm yet to decide whether to go with 20s or 24s. The extra top speed of 24s is enticing but on the other hand, the extra range of a lesser voltage battery but bigger ah pack (per battery weight) is also tempting... decisions decisions!


Paul :D
Norco Aline / carbon fibre frame mod / 12t Mac / 12fet / 23kg

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sn0wchyld   1 MW

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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 11 2012 12:45am

Timma2500 wrote:Dlogic: It was a shame your HT burned up so quickly after you spent so long tricking it up :( I too will consider getting a CroMo if the HT bites the dust however hopefully it won't come to that!

Miro13car: Yeah the HT's aren't a perfect motor but really, what is? :roll: There are compromises on every single motor available and always will be... Just as there will be manufacturing tolerance differences with every motor or batch of motors from pretty much all manufacturers regardless of their origin or quality level.
As for simulators, i see them in the same light as a vehicle dyno - no two dynos ever read the exact same power and therefore should only be used as a guide and this is how a sim should be treated, as a guide because as you say, they can't simulate every variable we find in real life :)
full-throttle wrote: Regardless of power it's the heat that kills them, so don't spend too long at low throttle
Hehe, i don't intend to!
full-throttle wrote:I'll 2nd what Kepler wrote

3kW - ok
4kW - you'd better know what you're doing
5kW - pushing your luck
I think i'll set it up for 4kw. This will just be peaks ofcourse and given i pedal alot, am lightweight and won't be doing any or many hill climbing with it, at a pinch i'd say it should be ok. I've found some reversable heat temp labels in the 30-90deg celcious range to stick on and would like to experiment with some drilled covers and cans of freezing spray similar to what we use to ease burns in the welding industry. My idea is to spray the windings through the drilled covers if the motor is starting to get too hot. Its just a crazy idea for now :wink:
Kepler wrote:I really think these motors really are a 3000 W motor. 4000W if you only use this for short periods at this level.

After a recent hard ride with me on my Bomber and a mate on a 4000W HT powered Fighter, outer casing as measured with a Fluke infrared heat gun was as follows.
HT=> 70 degC
X5405=> 65 degC

Both bikes were riden with a mix of fast straights and steep tracks with both bikes using quite a few periods of full throttle.
With my higher output, I would accelerate significantly quicker, but we basically stayed together over the period of the ride.

Not quote sure if that's a useful comparison but I figured it gives a bit of an idea of what to expect.
Thanks Kepler, i believe the comparison is relevant but the result not surprising, especially the temperature difference. These HT's are known to be a distant 2nd place to their X5 big brothers when it comes to coping with heat (and power output) but i'm ok with that and just need to stay mindful of it when out on the trail :)

Dlogic: What sort of bike is that you pictured? It kind of looks like a KTM but i suspect its a brand i've not seen before. How has your friend got on with the conversion?


Nothing else to update on this build yet, the motor arrived but i'm yet to order spokes, batteries, controller, Saint brakes, freewheel or CA yet.
Infact i'm yet to decide whether to go with 20s or 24s. The extra top speed of 24s is enticing but on the other hand, the extra range of a lesser voltage battery but bigger ah pack (per battery weight) is also tempting... decisions decisions!


Paul :D
I'd strongly recommend 24s on the HT. 20s was good fun, but the acceleration petered out pretty quickly. 24s is were it got exciting. the extra acceleration from about 20 km/h upwards is really noticeable. Im running 24s 40a at the moment, heat wasnt a big issue as like you I pedalled allot, and only used bursts of above 2kw.

However, I've just finished drilling the side covers and adding fans, it seems to have made a BIG difference. Hammering the throttle, lots of stop start, slow speeds at high loads, burnouts and heavy acceleration gets the windings up to 60deg in about 10 min. best of all they cool down by about 1-2 deg every 10 seconds or so, so a short break and they're back down in the 40's. Ill have to tape up the holes to see how much of a difference the fans+holes are making, but I doubt the motor would have ever managed this kind of riding before the modifications.

At the very least I'd suggest opening up 1 side of the motor and adding a temp probe, fitting another 2-3 small wires (depending on the type of probe you use) through the standard axle slot shouldnt be too hard... and the info you get on how hard you're pushing your motor is very useful. I regularly got my outer casing to 45-50deg before drilling, and now it doesn't get above 35 with more aggressive riding, so there's a big delta T between the windings and the casing, maybe as much as 30deg or more at times...

hope that all helps! cant wait to see what you do to the frame too...

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Timma2500   1 kW

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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by Timma2500 » Feb 12 2012 11:07am

sn0wchyld wrote:I'd strongly recommend 24s on the HT. 20s was good fun, but the acceleration petered out pretty quickly. 24s is were it got exciting. the extra acceleration from about 20 km/h upwards is really noticeable. Im running 24s 40a at the moment, heat wasnt a big issue as like you I pedalled allot, and only used bursts of above 2kw.
24s does sound like fun and the extra top end speed would also be a blast but i've settled on 20s and just ordered 4 of these 10s nano packs (with 2 more packs to follow when money allows):
N5000-10S-25.jpg
N5000-10S-25.jpg (68.09 KiB) Viewed 4728 times
The main reason being i will mostly be riding this bike with my girlfriend when i get around to doing her 10t Mac / 12s build. Her top speed will only be around 40kph so i don't need the extra top speed that 24s would net. However to gain a little more ooomph, i'll pump about 60a through it.
Secondly, battery room wise in the frame i had the choice between 24s/10ah or 20s/15ah and range won in the end!
sn0wchyld wrote:However, I've just finished drilling the side covers and adding fans, it seems to have made a BIG difference. Hammering the throttle, lots of stop start, slow speeds at high loads, burnouts and heavy acceleration gets the windings up to 60deg in about 10 min. best of all they cool down by about 1-2 deg every 10 seconds or so, so a short break and they're back down in the 40's. Ill have to tape up the holes to see how much of a difference the fans+holes are making, but I doubt the motor would have ever managed this kind of riding before the modifications.
Any pics of the fan install? I'm not sure i'll go that far but seeing as i'm looking to run higher amperage than your's, its something i may have to look into depending on how much heat i get. Have you run the motor with the holes but without the fans running to see how effective they are? I'd be interested to see how much extra cooling the fans provide in conjunction with the holes. Substantial i'd guess!
sn0wchyld wrote:At the very least I'd suggest opening up 1 side of the motor and adding a temp probe, fitting another 2-3 small wires (depending on the type of probe you use) through the standard axle slot shouldnt be too hard... and the info you get on how hard you're pushing your motor is very useful. I regularly got my outer casing to 45-50deg before drilling, and now it doesn't get above 35 with more aggressive riding, so there's a big delta T between the windings and the casing, maybe as much as 30deg or more at times...
Yep, i've been thinking of drilling the disc rotor side of the hub and looking around for a temp probe setup, any suggestions?
Thats quite a delta T between the casing and windings, no wonder you can't rely on the casing temps!
sn0wchyld wrote:hope that all helps! cant wait to see what you do to the frame too...
Sure does, cheers! Ah the frame won't be anything special, just another chop job as usual :wink:

Paul :D
Norco Aline / carbon fibre frame mod / 12t Mac / 12fet / 23kg

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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 12 2012 6:54pm

Timma2500 wrote:
sn0wchyld wrote:I'd strongly recommend 24s on the HT. 20s was good fun, but the acceleration petered out pretty quickly. 24s is were it got exciting. the extra acceleration from about 20 km/h upwards is really noticeable. Im running 24s 40a at the moment, heat wasnt a big issue as like you I pedalled allot, and only used bursts of above 2kw.
24s does sound like fun and the extra top end speed would also be a blast but i've settled on 20s and just ordered 4 of these 10s nano packs (with 2 more packs to follow when money allows):
N5000-10S-25.jpg
The main reason being i will mostly be riding this bike with my girlfriend when i get around to doing her 10t Mac / 12s build. Her top speed will only be around 40kph so i don't need the extra top speed that 24s would net. However to gain a little more ooomph, i'll pump about 60a through it.
Secondly, battery room wise in the frame i had the choice between 24s/10ah or 20s/15ah and range won in the end!
sn0wchyld wrote:However, I've just finished drilling the side covers and adding fans, it seems to have made a BIG difference. Hammering the throttle, lots of stop start, slow speeds at high loads, burnouts and heavy acceleration gets the windings up to 60deg in about 10 min. best of all they cool down by about 1-2 deg every 10 seconds or so, so a short break and they're back down in the 40's. Ill have to tape up the holes to see how much of a difference the fans+holes are making, but I doubt the motor would have ever managed this kind of riding before the modifications.
Any pics of the fan install? I'm not sure i'll go that far but seeing as i'm looking to run higher amperage than your's, its something i may have to look into depending on how much heat i get. Have you run the motor with the holes but without the fans running to see how effective they are? I'd be interested to see how much extra cooling the fans provide in conjunction with the holes. Substantial i'd guess!
sn0wchyld wrote:At the very least I'd suggest opening up 1 side of the motor and adding a temp probe, fitting another 2-3 small wires (depending on the type of probe you use) through the standard axle slot shouldnt be too hard... and the info you get on how hard you're pushing your motor is very useful. I regularly got my outer casing to 45-50deg before drilling, and now it doesn't get above 35 with more aggressive riding, so there's a big delta T between the windings and the casing, maybe as much as 30deg or more at times...
Yep, i've been thinking of drilling the disc rotor side of the hub and looking around for a temp probe setup, any suggestions?
Thats quite a delta T between the casing and windings, no wonder you can't rely on the casing temps!
sn0wchyld wrote:hope that all helps! cant wait to see what you do to the frame too...
Sure does, cheers! Ah the frame won't be anything special, just another chop job as usual :wink:

Paul :D

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... aff=326255
Thats the one im using. Im running mine off my 12/5V external HD PS.
The best part of that one is the temp sensor is a really small IC, about the size of 3 halls. so its easy to remove it from the circut board they attach it to, and glue it to some windings with a bit of thermal cement or epoxy. adding 3 wires through the standard axle hole should be easy. (I managed to fit 6 28g wires (ribon cable) through the standard glass fibre sleeve. ) the LCD is crap in sunlight though, so you need to cover it with your hands to see it. alarm's nice and loud though.

Ill have some pics up over the next couple days, plus a vid with luck. (all stored at my house, at the GF's place at the moment)

havent run without the fans yet, ill try it today/tomorow. ill try taping up the holes too. im a bit disappointed with the airflow, with the covers off the fans move allot of air, with them on its not as good - I think I need more holes in the covers. needless to say you can feel a warm breze, id guess they're replacing the air in the motor every few seconds at the most.

the delta T im guessing could peak at the above or more, but generally I'd say about 15degC for a sealed motor.

and i guess if you do decide to go to 24s its a simple purchase of 3 4s5ah bricks, perhaps in a small case attached to the handle bars... feeding the motor extra amps may make up for it though.

as to your comment 'frame wont be anything special' Im gonna go out on a limb and say BS to that mate :wink: .

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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by Timma2500 » Feb 13 2012 10:51pm

sn0wchyld wrote:http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... aff=326255 Thats the one im using. Im running mine off my 12/5V external HD PS. The best part of that one is the temp sensor is a really small IC, about the size of 3 halls. so its easy to remove it from the circut board they attach it to, and glue it to some windings with a bit of thermal cement or epoxy. adding 3 wires through the standard axle hole should be easy. (I managed to fit 6 28g wires (ribon cable) through the standard glass fibre sleeve. ) the LCD is crap in sunlight though, so you need to cover it with your hands to see it. alarm's nice and loud though.
Looks like it'd do the trick and cheap, just a bugger i've just put a lipo order through with them, could have thrown it in too. Whats a HD PS?!
Doesn't matter if the screen is hard to see, as long as the alarm is loud enough to hear while riding, thats all ya'd need really.
sn0wchyld wrote:Ill have some pics up over the next couple days, plus a vid with luck. (all stored at my house, at the GF's place at the moment)
When you can dude, that'd be great!
sn0wchyld wrote:havent run without the fans yet, ill try it today/tomorow. ill try taping up the holes too. im a bit disappointed with the airflow, with the covers off the fans move allot of air, with them on its not as good - I think I need more holes in the covers. needless to say you can feel a warm breze, id guess they're replacing the air in the motor every few seconds at the most.
It'd be a fine line between not drilling the covers enough and drilling them too much and risk weakening them i spose. As long as the fans are pushing a reasonable amount of air around then they're doing their job. And as long as that hot air is being drawn out by the holes and the vaccum of air rushing past too... Either way, having the holes and fans will be alot better than how it is from the factory... :)

sn0wchyld wrote:and i guess if you do decide to go to 24s its a simple purchase of 3 4s5ah bricks, perhaps in a small case attached to the handle bars... feeding the motor extra amps may make up for it though.
Thats it, i can always add to the pack later if i decide to go 24s, gotta love lipo! :mrgreen:
sn0wchyld wrote:as to your comment 'frame wont be anything special' Im gonna go out on a limb and say BS to that mate.
It'll be chopped and welded as usual but nothing over the top :wink:


Paul :D
Norco Aline / carbon fibre frame mod / 12t Mac / 12fet / 23kg

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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 14 2012 8:28am

Timma2500 wrote:
sn0wchyld wrote:http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... aff=326255 Thats the one im using. Im running mine off my 12/5V external HD PS. The best part of that one is the temp sensor is a really small IC, about the size of 3 halls. so its easy to remove it from the circut board they attach it to, and glue it to some windings with a bit of thermal cement or epoxy. adding 3 wires through the standard axle hole should be easy. (I managed to fit 6 28g wires (ribon cable) through the standard glass fibre sleeve. ) the LCD is crap in sunlight though, so you need to cover it with your hands to see it. alarm's nice and loud though.
Looks like it'd do the trick and cheap, just a bugger i've just put a lipo order through with them, could have thrown it in too. Whats a HD PS?!
Doesn't matter if the screen is hard to see, as long as the alarm is loud enough to hear while riding, thats all ya'd need really.
sn0wchyld wrote:Ill have some pics up over the next couple days, plus a vid with luck. (all stored at my house, at the GF's place at the moment)
When you can dude, that'd be great!
sn0wchyld wrote:havent run without the fans yet, ill try it today/tomorow. ill try taping up the holes too. im a bit disappointed with the airflow, with the covers off the fans move allot of air, with them on its not as good - I think I need more holes in the covers. needless to say you can feel a warm breze, id guess they're replacing the air in the motor every few seconds at the most.
It'd be a fine line between not drilling the covers enough and drilling them too much and risk weakening them i spose. As long as the fans are pushing a reasonable amount of air around then they're doing their job. And as long as that hot air is being drawn out by the holes and the vaccum of air rushing past too... Either way, having the holes and fans will be alot better than how it is from the factory... :)

sn0wchyld wrote:and i guess if you do decide to go to 24s its a simple purchase of 3 4s5ah bricks, perhaps in a small case attached to the handle bars... feeding the motor extra amps may make up for it though.
Thats it, i can always add to the pack later if i decide to go 24s, gotta love lipo! :mrgreen:
sn0wchyld wrote:as to your comment 'frame wont be anything special' Im gonna go out on a limb and say BS to that mate.
It'll be chopped and welded as usual but nothing over the top :wink:


Paul :D

ha sorry mate, its a external hard drive power supply, they give you both 5 and 12 volts, really useful in a very small package. doesnt love heavy loads though, when I turn on my 1200lm light I can hear the fans drop to a lower speed :evil: . I run the allarm of the 12 volts, since it has a max imput of ~24v, and I dont want it draining off one 8s part of my 24s pack and getting it imbalanced.

Yea I figured I could always take more out of the side covers, where as filling the holes up is not so easy... I've only taken out 3 x 33mm holes on each side, and then glued in some mesh to stop anything big getting in, so its far from extreme and not the best for free flowing air. before I do any extra holes I might try putting in a array of heatsinks around the inside of the stator, I think it'd really help make the most of the airflow.

had a more aggressive ride the other day, 5-10% grades at wot, maxed out at about 65deg, and drops fast when I stop, slowing down as it reaches about 50. I could probably get it hotter if I actively tried, but under normal conditions I dont think ill have to worry much unless its like 35+ ambient, and then only if im riding like a pig. plans to up the pack to 24s 15ah and ~50A might change that though :twisted: - but not until i get my RC drive running. Hate having nothing to ride.

all the best.

ps
the alarm also has flashing lights, easily visible in daylight too.

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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by electr0n » Feb 14 2012 3:04pm

That was an interesting read about the overheating of the new crystalyte motors. It seems quite a few people have killed these new motors very quickly. I was debating between a 5303 and an HS3540 but in the end I went for the HS3540 to save some money. I plan on running 88.8v and 50 amps maybe 45 amps but not continuously. I will probably run closer to 2.5 kw continuously with bursts above that here and there while being mindful of the motor temperature. I wonder if side covers machined like fan blades would help with the overheating on these smaller motors. I guess that would add to the complexity and manufacturing costs and probably won't be done but it seems like a reasonable solution. Hoping that isn't too off topic from your build thread.

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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by Timma2500 » Feb 17 2012 2:18am

Some progress. Just a quick few pics before running out the door, i'll reply to you guys from my g.f's place hopefully tonight.
003.JPG
003.JPG (194.26 KiB) Viewed 4524 times
I cleaned up the paint today ready to cut the frame and weld. Easier to clean it now for welding than later.


010.JPG
010.JPG (219.29 KiB) Viewed 4524 times
Bloody cluttered workshop! I do like having it full of bikes though :wink:


Paul :D
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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by Timma2500 » Feb 22 2012 12:18pm

The 10s lipos turned up today, sweet! However they did have a surprise in store - each pack had 4 discharge leads! I assumed they would just have two but HK split the packs in two 5s halves, on the pack i tested it arrived with 19.13v / 19.12v. Its no biggy, just means extra wiring i hadn't anticipated.
EDIT: Ok serves me 'right for not looking closely at the HK website lipo picture i posted further up the thread - it shows the 4 leads... :oops: :lol:
005.JPG
4 x 10s 25-50c Nanotech lipos
005.JPG (212.43 KiB) Viewed 4447 times
007.JPG
4 discharge leads per pack!
007.JPG (160.86 KiB) Viewed 4447 times
I finally got around to doing the wire mod and side cover drilling on the HT3525. For the wire mod i took the easy way out - took the seal out and just cable tied (zip tied) the wiring to the axle. I'm planning on making pinch style torque arms so i'm not worried about axle movement tearing the wires.

Next up was drilling the LH side cover, man those screws are a bitch to get off with all the thread lock they smothered them in! So much so that i buggered up one of the screw heads which then needed to be converted to a flat head with the grinder and a 1mm cut-off wheel :roll: I carefully ground a flat across it and got it off with a large flat head screw driver - phew! :D

I marked up the holes on the inside of the cover, not paying much attention to their placement on the outside in relation to the disc brake mount or orientation to the 203mm disc thats to go on and this is how it ended up :arrow:
002.JPG
18 x 12mm holes
002.JPG (198.78 KiB) Viewed 4447 times
001.JPG
Where are the holes?!!!
001.JPG (202.02 KiB) Viewed 4447 times
Almost couldn't have placed them more perfectly behind the disc spokes if i'd tried! I don't know if this will have any consequence in regards to cooling effectiveness but it sure hides them well! :mrgreen:

Ok so i've got a decision to make as to whether i'll bother making the frame to carry 10 or 15ah - 4 or 6 lipo packs. I originally planned on 6 which gave the frame a 100mm (4") width and an extra 2.6kg of weight (compared to using just 4 packs). However now i know each pack has 4 discharge leads, its going to get rather cramped in there once i've made a wiring harness up for 12 pairs of leads - 24 leads in total... Plus i'm not keen on the extra weight nor the extra width the frame would need to be - if i allow for just 4 packs (10ah), thats less wiring, weight and a 20 - 30mm narrower frame. Hmmm... :?:
009.JPG
Basic frame outline
009.JPG (141.89 KiB) Viewed 4447 times
011.JPG
Layout for 6 packs, 3 side by side
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012.JPG
Layout for 4 packs as shown
012.JPG (175.46 KiB) Viewed 4447 times
I guess it comes down to whats the highest priority - range or weight / nimbleness / handling. I'll be riding this bike mostly with my girlfriend once i get her Mac build finished. Given she's reasonably new to mountainbiking in general (but picking it up pretty quick), our average speed will prob only be about 25-30kph so i could probably get away with a 10ah pack and still get a reasonable range :) I guess i could make some bolt-on side pods to house an extra pack each later if range becomes an issue for longer rides. I think i just answered my own question lol...
electr0n wrote: That was an interesting read about the overheating of the new crystalyte motors. It seems quite a few people have killed these new motors very quickly. I was debating between a 5303 and an HS3540 but in the end I went for the HS3540 to save some money. I plan on running 88.8v and 50 amps maybe 45 amps but not continuously. I will probably run closer to 2.5 kw continuously with bursts above that here and there while being mindful of the motor temperature. I wonder if side covers machined like fan blades would help with the overheating on these smaller motors. I guess that would add to the complexity and manufacturing costs and probably won't be done but it seems like a reasonable solution. Hoping that isn't too off topic from your build thread.
Hi electr0n, not off topic at all mate. Yeah these H series motors do tend to be prone to over heating when pushing alot of kw through them or alot of hill climbing.
If your running the HS just take extra care if you do alot of hills, it will tend to heat up pretty quickly. Cooling holes, a temp probe and maybe some of these will help you keep an eye on temps - http://www.omega.com/pptst/RLC-50.html I'll be getting some in the 30-90deg c range.

I guess side covers machined up like a fan blade may be beneficial for cooling but i can't see Kenny implementing that, too costly and for many people putting a sensible amount of power through these hubs (not us on ES lol), heat probably won't be an issue and wouldn't warrent it.. Having said that i think Jay (Hyena) is looking at having some side covers CNC'd with a cooling hole pattern, it might be worth looking into :wink: Have you started a thread for your build yet?
sn0wchyld wrote:ha sorry mate, its a external hard drive power supply, they give you both 5 and 12 volts, really useful in a very small package. doesnt love heavy loads though, when I turn on my 1200lm light I can hear the fans drop to a lower speed . I run the allarm of the 12 volts, since it has a max imput of ~24v, and I dont want it draining off one 8s part of my 24s pack and getting it imbalanced.
Ah ok, your talking to an electrical numpty here lol. It sounds like a handy device - i assume the fan's rpm lowering when your light is on is just voltage sag under load? Thats a good point, too much load on one pack will give you an inbalance in relation to the other packs. Have you thought of using another stand alone pack just for the light and fans?
sn0wchyld wrote:Yea I figured I could always take more out of the side covers, where as filling the holes up is not so easy... I've only taken out 3 x 33mm holes on each side, and then glued in some mesh to stop anything big getting in, so its far from extreme and not the best for free flowing air. before I do any extra holes I might try putting in a array of heatsinks around the inside of the stator, I think it'd really help make the most of the airflow.
Yup, you don't want to be filling these things, cast aluminium can be a bastard to weld at the best of times, worse still when its a poor quality material or casting... 3 x 33mm holes isn't too radical i'd have thought, hell i've just done 18 x 12mm holes on one side - gulp! You could probably up it to 6 x 33mm holes each side and get away with it (don't quote me though!).
The idea of heat sinks on the stator is a damn good one though, i might even try that without fans inside. Anything you could add in there to help soak up some heat has gotta be a good thing right?
sn0wchyld wrote:had a more aggressive ride the other day, 5-10% grades at wot, maxed out at about 65deg, and drops fast when I stop, slowing down as it reaches about 50. I could probably get it hotter if I actively tried, but under normal conditions I dont think ill have to worry much unless its like 35+ ambient, and then only if im riding like a pig. plans to up the pack to 24s 15ah and ~50A might change that though - but not until i get my RC drive running. Hate having nothing to ride.
Thats 65deg at the windings, not the casing hey? If so thats pretty good going, from what i've read about safe winding temps i'd be happy with that!
You reckon putting an extra 10a through it will make that much difference in temperature? For your sake i hope not :) Yeah i hear you re having nothing to ride, i sold my Specialized to Dingo last week and i still haven't found another job yet so i'll be without an ebike for longer than i'd planned for - doh! I've still got a nice normal mtb but its just not the same without a few kw to help get my speed jollies! :lol:

Oh sorry for the slow reply boys, my girlfriend's just had a death in the family and things have been a little crazy the last few days. F**king cherry pickers... :cry:


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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 22 2012 5:57pm

shit mate, never a good way to go. condolences... hope the gf and family's ok...

yea the lower rpm is the power supply struggling under the multiple loads a bit... not a big problem though. I might hook the fans up to the +12v line too for some extra oomph when things get too toasty. For me, having a second pack both A takes up more space and B more of a pita to take care of. the hdd ps is nice and easy and even with the small sag its still working well.

Riding the other day, after a series of hill climbs and general mucking round with very little pedalling I did get the motor temps to 75 (and yea, the probe is glued to the windings with some thermal cement, so thats winding temps). measured the cooling rate to 55deg, and it was averaging about 1 deg every 10 seconds. it was about 28-30 deg outside too, vs about 20 with my last post. the side covers/magnets dont seem to warm up at all now, <40deg max, which is great, though it means you cant rely on them as an accurate measure of the internal temps. Had to open the motor yesterday to change the barings, and totally forgot to add the heat sinks!! duhhhhhh. ah well, I'm happy enough with its performance for now. I've changed to a higher psi tyre with better rolling efficiency so hopefully that'll help too.

and I hate to say it, but i told ya so!! ha! should have gone with 24s10ah for a bit more range or speed than 20s10ah, in a smaller package than the extra 5ah on 20s. still, I like the idea of an easy to attach 5 or even 10ah booster pack on the outside of the frame... its exactly what I'm planning on my next build!

electr0n wrote:That was an interesting read about the overheating of the new crystalyte motors. It seems quite a few people have killed these new .....................
your build thread.

I'd say you'll definatly want to drill your side covers at those power levels. even small holes should help allot, as 2.5kw cont with bursts higher than that is exceeding what these motors will handle safely. a small temp probe is easy to install too, but does wonders for your peace of mind, since you know exactly how hard you can push things!! :twisted: :twisted: I cant tell you how much better it is knowing rather than guessing how hot your windings are!

Are you thinking of using regen timma (and electr0n i guess)? that seems to generate more heat than normal riding, so be sure to have a temp probe before you do!

edit
with the next side cover, it might be easier to just drill the heads off the screws, get the side cover off and then use a pair of clamping pliers to really get a good grip on the remaining part of the screw and twist it off that way. That's what I ended up having to do to about 4 screws, and after doing it I wish I'd done it with every one that didn't come out with a normal Philips head.

ps
sorry for the long winded post, hopefully ive kept it all relevant!

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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by Hyena » Feb 22 2012 6:55pm

Timma2500 wrote:The 10s lipos turned up today, sweet! However they did have a surprise in store - each pack had 4 discharge leads! I assumed they would just have two but HK split the packs in two 5s halves, on the pack i tested it arrived with 19.13v / 19.12v. Its no biggy, just means extra wiring i hadn't anticipated.
It's no biggy, just plug them into series and forget about the extra loop of wiring - the only real hassle is extending/joining the 5S balance tap leads. If you're trying to save space inside your frame I'd actually open the top of the shrink wrap and solder a short stub of wire from one 5S +ve to the other 5S -ve to create a permamant 10S pack. HK only does it like this for people who don't have 10S chargers and need to charge the pack in 2 halves on less say 6S chargers
For the wire mod i took the easy way out - took the seal out and just cable tied (zip tied) the wiring to the axle.
That's what I do an have no no issues with it.
Almost couldn't have placed them more perfectly behind the disc spokes if i'd tried! I don't know if this will have any consequence in regards to cooling effectiveness but it sure hides them well! :mrgreen:
Yeah I'm not sure if that's good or bad for cooling but if you want to hide them you've done well :lol:
Ok so i've got a decision to make as to whether i'll bother making the frame to carry 10 or 15ah - 4 or 6 lipo packs. I'll be riding this bike mostly with my girlfriend once i get her Mac build finished. Given she's reasonably new to mountainbiking in general (but picking it up pretty quick), our average speed will prob only be about 25-30kph
The HTs are really efficient at this speed - 10ah pack will get you heaps of range - probably in the order of 40-50km depending on how you ride and the terrain. Given your sweet frame it'd be nice to keep the bike looking as close to stock as possible and not have a triple wide tank section if you can help it. If your GF is also into riding dirt bikes with you (which she is right ?) then it won't be long until she feels the need for speed and 25km/hr on the mac won't cut it :wink:
Thats 65deg at the windings, not the casing hey? If so thats pretty good going, from what i've read about safe winding temps i'd be happy with that!
You'd need good cooling to get 65 on the windings with your planned power. 65 on the side covers is about 90 at the windings - which is hot but still OK. Personally I'm not keen on taking it much over 100 but with drilled side covers that shouldn't be too much of an issue.
I've still got a nice normal mtb but its just not the same without a few kw to help get my speed jollies! :lol:
Damn straight, it's like riding up hill, through thick mud :lol:
sn0wchyld wrote:Riding the other day, after a series of hill climbs and general mucking round with very little pedalling I did get the motor temps to 75 (and yea, the probe is glued to the windings with some thermal cement, so thats winding temps). measured the cooling rate to 55deg, and it was averaging about 1 deg every 10 seconds.
That's really good - it'll last forever at that rate. Time to up the current and push your luck :lol:
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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 23 2012 6:00am

Hyena wrote:
sn0wchyld wrote:Riding the other day, after a series of hill climbs and general mucking round with very little pedalling I did get the motor temps to 75 (and yea, the probe is glued to the windings with some thermal cement, so thats winding temps). measured the cooling rate to 55deg, and it was averaging about 1 deg every 10 seconds.
That's really good - it'll last forever at that rate. Time to up the current and push your luck :lol:
:twisted: :twisted:
im going to have to see how the 12fet handles things, its not even getting warm at 40a (casing peaking at about +10 ambient, so i figure 50a should be safe enough, and 60 should be fun... :P thinking of upping it to a 15ah pack though.

hey timma i'd meant to ask, are you doing any active cooling? if you are these
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/290619923173 ... _500wt_743
throw allot of air, work off 5v (and 12v, where they throw a HELL of a lot of air, though longevity might be affected) and are about the perfect size. You can pick them up from china sellers for about $9 or so if your not in a rush. im only using 3 in mine, could have fit 5 with a bit of squishing, 6 if I moved the hall wires around etc.

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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by Timma2500 » Feb 24 2012 10:47am

Ok some more progress today:
001.JPG
As cut from the 3mm sheet
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002.JPG
The parts
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004.JPG
M3 frame chopped
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005.JPG
Sheets bent and tack welded
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007.JPG
Box fully welded and partially welded to chopped M3 frame
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004.JPG
Original OEM frame for comparison
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009.JPG
Degree of steering lock available. Space for CA behind headtube
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010.JPG
Front view
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008.JPG
Clearance to crank chainwheel
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The easy part of welding up the box is done, now time for the hard part - welding it to the M3 frame... It aint guna be fun, welding such a thin edge to much thicker sheet is an absolute bastard of a job :roll: 2 runs will be needed with the 2nd run just to tidy it up a little. It still won't look pretty but it will be strong atleast. Plus later on a powdercoat finish will cover any crap looking welds! :wink:

In the side-on pic, the forks are sitting at a more relaxed angle due to no headset bearings installed yet. Head angle is standard M3 - 65deg?
Wheelbase is 1215mm as it sits, it'll pull in to around 1205mm with the headset installed, an increase of about 65mm.

sn0wchyld wrote:The HTs are really efficient at this speed - 10ah pack will get you heaps of range - probably in the order of 40-50km depending on how you ride and the terrain. Given your sweet frame it'd be nice to keep the bike looking as close to stock as possible and not have a triple wide tank section if you can help it. If your GF is also into riding dirt bikes with you (which she is right ?) then it won't be long until she feels the need for speed and 25km/hr on the mac won't cut it
Sweet, if i can use some self control its good to know it can get decent range on 10ah. Yeah Mels got a 250 quad though we haven't been out riding since she hurt herself looping out a pitbike lol. Her 10t Mac on 12s should be good for 40kph so she'll have a little more speed up her sleeve for when she gets confident on it :)
hyena wrote:Almost couldn't have placed them more perfectly behind the disc spokes if i'd tried! I don't know if this will have any consequence in regards to cooling effectiveness but it sure hides them well! Yeah I'm not sure if that's good or bad for cooling but if you want to hide them you've done well
Thats the thing, i didn't even mean to hide them, it was just pure fluke! :lol:
hyena wrote:You'd need good cooling to get 65 on the windings with your planned power. 65 on the side covers is about 90 at the windings - which is hot but still OK. Personally I'm not keen on taking it much over 100 but with drilled side covers that shouldn't be too much of an issue.
Holy crap 100deg is getting up there temp wise, i thought about 80deg winding temp would be their limit?
sn0wchyld wrote:sn0wchyld wrote:Riding the other day, after a series of hill climbs and general mucking round with very little pedalling I did get the motor temps to 75 (and yea, the probe is glued to the windings with some thermal cement, so thats winding temps). measured the cooling rate to 55deg, and it was averaging about 1 deg every 10 seconds.
Hyena wrote: That's really good - it'll last forever at that rate. Time to up the current and push your luck :lol:
As Clint Eastwood once said "Well, are you feeling lucky punk?!"
sn0wchyld wrote: im going to have to see how the 12fet handles things, its not even getting warm at 40a (casing peaking at about +10 ambient, so i figure 50a should be safe enough, and 60 should be fun... thinking of upping it to a 15ah pack though.
Thats the attitude we wanna see! :P
sn0wchyld wrote:hey timma i'd meant to ask, are you doing any active cooling? if you are these http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/290619923173 ... t_743throw allot of air, work off 5v (and 12v, where they throw a HELL of a lot of air, though longevity might be affected) and are about the perfect size. You can pick them up from china sellers for about $9 or so if your not in a rush. im only using 3 in mine, could have fit 5 with a bit of squishing, 6 if I moved the hall wires around etc.
Nah i'm probably just going to see how it goes with just cooling holes for now. If it starts to get too toasty i'll look into fitting some fans. I checked out the ones in your link but i think they've sold out?
sn0wchyld wrote:and I hate to say it, but i told ya so!! ha! should have gone with 24s10ah for a bit more range or speed than 20s10ah, in a smaller package than the extra 5ah on 20s. still, I like the idea of an easy to attach 5 or even 10ah booster pack on the outside of the frame... its exactly what I'm planning on my next build!
Lucky i changed my mind at the last minute before marking out the aluminium for cutting - its 100mm wide to allow for 20s 15ah :mrgreen:
Plus i've got 8 x 6s packs here from my last Specialized / Cyclone build just incase 24s calls my name! I did like the pod idea but didn't like the thought of the extra width it'd add when they were in use...

Paul :D
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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by Hyena » Feb 24 2012 6:35pm

Looking awesome mate. I take it you're on top of your other outstanding projects then :P :wink:

Any reason you didn't fab the whole main frame section from scratch ? Would it have been much extra work to sort out the BB and mounts for the swing arm ?
I guess you'd lose some of the shape details but it'd be one single unit then which would look sweet. You could use a threadless BB shell (ie just a suitable ID piece of Al tube) to make life even easier.
Maybe next time huh ? :)
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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 24 2012 6:51pm

Holy shitballs mate that looks f*ing brilliant! not much different to the stock frame but room for 20s15ah! perfect.

Timma2500 wrote:Ok some more progress today:
........................................
Nah i'm probably just going to see how it goes with just cooling holes for now. If it starts to get too toasty i'll look into fitting some fans. I checked out the ones in your link but i think they've sold out?
........................................
Paul :D
yea the seller sold out, but if you search for the same model # you'll find a few suppliers of that particular fan....
like so...http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from ... -S4512AM05

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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by Timma2500 » Feb 24 2012 11:34pm

Hyena wrote: Looking awesome mate. I take it you're on top of your other outstanding projects then :P :wink:
At the moment you could say that :wink: I'm waiting on the delivery of a new shock and bushes before welding on the bloke's shock mount so i get the position just right. Once thats in place i can weld his headtube in at the correct angle and thats that frame complete and ready for delivery :)

Hyena wrote:Any reason you didn't fab the whole main frame section from scratch ? Would it have been much extra work to sort out the BB and mounts for the swing arm ?I guess you'd lose some of the shape details but it'd be one single unit then which would look sweet. You could use a threadless BB shell (ie just a suitable ID piece of Al tube) to make life even easier. Maybe next time huh ?
In terms of frame production, this one was a slap together.
I didn't want to spend ages working out shock and pivot mount locations and how to incorparate them into the new section of the frame. Plus i wanted to keep it looking semi original. And lastly, keeping the original spine of the frame adds strength to the rear of the frame.
Maybe next time i might go all out though i'm a little over making frames so there won't be many more coming out of my garage - i want less time building and more time riding :wink:

sn0wchyld wrote: Holy shitballs mate that looks f*ing brilliant! not much different to the stock frame but room for 20s15ah! perfect.
Ta mate. Yeah that was my predicament - the only difference between it holding 10ah or 15ah was a matter of 25mm extra width, no extra side-visual size so i figured i'd better go with the original planned size otherwise later down the track if i wanted more range i'd be kicking myself for making it a tiny bit narrower.
Besides 100mm overall width is still pretty narrow as far as ebike frames are concerned so i'm a happy camper :mrgreen:
And in the meantime while i run just 10ah, i've got shitloads of extra space in there to keep a spare tube or what not :wink:

sn0wchyld wrote:yea the seller sold out, but if you search for the same model # you'll find a few suppliers of that particular fan....like so...http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from ... -S4512AM05
Der don't mind me, i didn't even think to search its part #... :roll: :lol:
Cheers dude, i'll definatley look for these if it starts to get worryingly hot. At the moment i'm just dying to ride it so i just want to get it up and running for now! :mrgreen:


I'll strip the bike down again today and make a start on doing the final welding.


Paul :D
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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by miro13car » Feb 26 2012 11:40pm

very well, you can see with some effort
you don't have to mount your battery to rear seat post.
Keep up your work

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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by Timma2500 » Feb 27 2012 10:37pm

Thankyou miro13car. Nope, the only thing that should be on a seat post is the seat itself! :)


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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 28 2012 12:56am

I just cant stop drooling over this frame mate. Makes me wish (in a way) that I could drop out of uni and train up my welding skills so I could do my own, except with a mid drive. If you ever get sick of it and decide to sell let me know, I probably wont have the $$ but ill sell the girlfriend if I have to :wink: .

couple o q's... how wide is it and How long till its running? I recon this will end up as one of the most stealth ebikes out there... even more so if you ever decide to use a MAC, assuming you could live with ~2-3kw

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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by gtadmin » Feb 28 2012 4:46am

sn0wchyld wrote: ...
but ill sell the girlfriend if I have to :wink: .
...
Oh, could I go to town on this (but I won't :) )

Looking good Paul

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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by Timma2500 » Feb 29 2012 12:24pm

The frame is now fully welded yay :D Turd of a job but it turned out ok all things considered and its well aligned. Its gained about 1.6kg over standard which is less than i figured on so now i'm shooting for 35kg with 10ah and 37.5kg with 15ah onboard. Wheelbase came in at 1204mm. I paint stripped the front half today to tidy it up till it gets powder coated after completion.
001 (3).JPG
001 (3).JPG (218.86 KiB) Viewed 3575 times
004 (3).JPG
004 (3).JPG (218.43 KiB) Viewed 3575 times
009 (3).JPG
4 x 10s packs inside
009 (3).JPG (213.2 KiB) Viewed 3575 times
010 (2).JPG
4 x 10s packs inside
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002 (3).JPG
002 (3).JPG (199.65 KiB) Viewed 3575 times
These pics were with four 10s 5ah packs inside, theres oodles of room left for wiring and the last two packs to come later :mrgreen:
Unfortunately this is where the project grinds to a halt for a while, being currently unemployed and no money at all means i have to wait before ordering the last parts to complete the build - 13/14g spokes, freewheel, CA, 18fet controller and throttle :( I've decided to use some Shimano brakes i've got spare for now to save money till i spring for a pair of Saint callipers later.

I can make a start on the torque arms, guna scab some scrap steel off a mate for those.
sn0wchyld wrote: I just cant stop drooling over this frame mate. Makes me wish (in a way) that I could drop out of uni and train up my welding skills so I could do my own, except with a mid drive. If you ever get sick of it and decide to sell let me know, I probably wont have the $$ but ill sell the girlfriend if I have to :wink:.
Nah, just get to know your local welding shop then ask 'em how much if you cut it all and have it ready for welding. A one off frame would cost as much for them to weld as it would for you to do a welding course! I can't see myself selling this one but if i do, i'll send you a pm. I'm sure we could work out a payment method :wink: :lol:
sn0wchyld wrote:couple o q's... how wide is it and How long till its running? I recon this will end up as one of the most stealth ebikes out there... even more so if you ever decide to use a MAC, assuming you could live with ~2-3kw
Its 100mm (4") wide externally, 94mm internal. It won't be running till i find a job, i'm unemployed at the moment and now totally skint...
I originally considered a Mac but i figured i'd eventually kill it's gears or clutch while offroading so thats why i went DD. If this dies, i'll go CroMotor and hang on for dear life lol.

Oh sorry i missed your earlier question regarding regen, i won't be going down that road. I don't think the returns are worth the hassle really.
gtadmin wrote:sn0wchyld wrote:... but ill sell the girlfriend if I have to ....Oh, could I go to town on this (but I won't )Looking good Paul
Go on GT, you know you want to! :wink: Ta mate :)


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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by Hyena » Feb 29 2012 6:41pm

Looking very tidy mate!
Do you know what colour you're going to paint it ? Keeping it white like your others or going with something different ?
Timma2500 wrote:I can't see myself selling this one but if i do, i'll send you a pm. I'm sure we could work out a payment method :wink: :lol:
Dude, you don't even know what his girlfriend looks like! :lol:
If this dies, i'll go CroMotor and hang on for dear life lol.
What ever needs to go on there, Mr Asia will hook you up - I'm hoping to have more options on the way later in the year :wink:
regarding regen, i won't be going down that road. I don't think the returns are worth the hassle really
It's not really a hassle and all you need is good steel torque arms, which it sounds like you're already planning on.
Regen is great for casual braking and generally holding you back on steep sections - like compression braking in a low gear on a motorbike or car. I love it on mine but it's all about the braking rather than the minimal power returns you get to the battery.
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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by full-throttle » Feb 29 2012 6:52pm

Timma2500 wrote:Image
Looks better than the original!
sn0wchyld wrote: but ill sell the girlfriend if I have to :wink:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by Timma2500 » Mar 01 2012 3:16am

Hyena wrote:Looking very tidy mate!Do you know what colour you're going to paint it ? Keeping it white like your others or going with something different ?
Ta mate! Dunno, i quite like the Stealths in black so may go in that direction. Or white. Or red... :?: :lol:
Hyena wrote:Dude, you don't even know what his girlfriend looks like!
Maybe a pending photo ID approval clause should be written into the agreement? :P
Hyena wrote:If this dies, i'll go CroMotor and hang on for dear life lol.What ever needs to go on there, Mr Asia will hook you up - I'm hoping to have more options on the way later in the year
Mr Asia to the rescue! Oh do tell! :wink:
Hyena wrote:It's not really a hassle and all you need is good steel torque arms, which it sounds like you're already planning on. Regen is great for casual braking and generally holding you back on steep sections - like compression braking in a low gear on a motorbike or car. I love it on mine but it's all about the braking rather than the minimal power returns you get to the battery.
It cuts in automatically when you let off the throttle doesn't it? I'd like to be able to coast along off throttle as much as possible so i don't think regen is for me.
full-throttle wrote:Looks better than the original!
Ta full-throttle! I can't wait to get it powder coated.

The next job is to drill some grommet holes for the rear brake line, rear deraileur, battery and throttle leads to pass through the frame.


Paul :D
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Joined: Aug 07 2009 7:46am
Location: Whyalla South Australia

Re: Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525

Post by gtadmin » Mar 01 2012 6:18am

Timma2500 wrote: ...
Hyena wrote:Dude, you don't even know what his girlfriend looks like!
Maybe a pending photo ID approval clause should be written into the agreement? :P
...
Paul :D
I would think a test ride would be in order ... of the bike of course. You need to check for "saggy" suspension and "loose" chassis amongst other things :P I'm surprised though that another West Aussie hasn't chimed in yet, but the jester is probably nesting.

Stopping now ... (Sorry sc)

Black and red or black and gold looks excellent if you wanted to be more adventurous than white, and if you paint it right you could make some of the big areas disappear, or at least be less prominent. ( :oops: you're getting it powder-coated, oh well)

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