Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

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Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby Andje » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:17 pm

Picked up my bike today. Norco Aline Park 2009- 1250$
A ridiculous deal on an almost brand new condition aline. There are some scratches, a couple dings in the paint, but mechanically it is like a brand new one. 888 World Cup Boxxer shock on the front, Rocco World Cup in the rear, shimano saint hydro's, 9 inch rotors, brand new crankset, the works :) A good platform to start my build on.

My room, with bikes hanging from the ceiling.
GOPR0109.JPG
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The new Aline Park; it's a small size frame, but it fits me well. I'll just have to watch the wheelies.
GOPR0117.JPG
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My year old ebike, a 100km/h Norco Dirt Jumper
GOPR0119.JPG
GOPR0119.JPG (159.49 KiB) Viewed 8163 times


Plans include a 144v 300amp Kelly and an x5403. The motor might also end up being a rewound double hs30 that I am working on; 60mm of stator goodness. The Goal is to hit 120km/h with room to spare, and the Dream is to hit 150km/h.
Last edited by Andje on Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35652
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby Andje » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:17 pm

reserved
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35652
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby fractal » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:43 pm

This is going to be a great bike! Subsribed!
Norco A-line DH bike with :
«cromotor/hubzilla» from http://www.greyborg.com/
24s 3p Lipo (100v, 15ah)
Methods LVC/HVC cell level protection system http://www.methtek.com
24 fet infineon controller made by Lyen, heavily moded by Methods
8awg harness by Icecube57
17 inch moped rims with Michelin Gazelle tires by John Rob Holmes http://www.holmeshobbies.com
other stuff http://www.ebikes.ca

details
http://www.helicamguide.com
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby Andje » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:12 pm

haha thanks fractal, there is so little to show right now...

here is some more pics of the bike, and the hs motors i am going to rewind.


handlebars.jpg
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handlebars2.jpg
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leftside.jpg
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right side.jpg
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This is the reason for using the Aline 2009; the rear dropouts will be replaced with a custom set cnc'd by our very own magudaman!
reardroput.jpg
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magnet rings outside.jpg
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Here you can see the flange I will need to have machined down so as to get the two magnet sections flush with each other before I epoxy them together.
magnet rings.jpg
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One stator stripped of wires, but the wire cutters I was using gave me horrendous blisters... I will do the other one once I am healed. There is a small flange on the stators that I will also need to machine down, and I will need the axles pressed out and then replaced with a double wide one that I will need to have made. Luckily there is already a keyway in the hs motors, so I don't need to worry about knurling and tapering tolerances, just a shaft that will fit turned on a lathe with a keyway and then the ends flattened somehow to fit the dropouts.
stators.jpg
stators.jpg (146.24 KiB) Viewed 8097 times


I am also thinking seriously about using Makita cells for this build so as to be able to fit them into the frame around the curves. I was sold on Oatnets box on the front idea, until I got the bike and hung my battery backpack from the front. I'm really not sure about the top heavy feeling, and I also didn't like the feeling of overstear that I was getting, like once you started turning the bars one way they wanted to keep going that way. We will see... I am now thinking that with the 8ah nanos out of my price range until september, I will perhaps opt for a much cheaper set of 300-400 makita cells and save money by doing the labor; in that case I will design a full on fiberglass case to fit around the frame and contain the batteries, the contactor, and any other random electronics I may add to this project. I am considering a lot; I may go so far as to get an Arduino and run a control interface on a screen taking readings from thermistors, shunts (i may skip the CA), starting the bike with an rfid tag reader, integrated shifting lights and brake lights... the list goes on. This will be a year long project as far as I'm concerned; it's a bit of a tease to have the bike so early.
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35652
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby ohzee » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:48 pm

Yea I look forward to watching what you build subscribed as well.
The 2 hubs is gonna put out some serious power be neat to see what it looks like when done.

I like your Kokopelli tat as well it help you out with the ladies ? hehe
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby oatnet » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:33 pm

You got a screaming good deal on that bike, nice job! I look forward to watching your build!

I was sold on Oatnets box on the front idea, until I got the bike and hung my battery backpack from the front. I also didn't like the feeling of overstear that I was getting, like once you started turning the bars one way they wanted to keep going that way.


If the backpack was able to move or flop around, you will definitely get unwanted steering. It has to be bolted firmly to the stanchions or the frame. I hope you try it, but either way it looks like you are on your way to a grear eBike! :mrgreen:

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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby rojitor » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:39 pm

Subscribed ;)
You have a great project in your hands,ambitious and dangerous i hope you have a good helmet cos 150 kmh on a bike gives me the creeps.
Good luck
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby Andje » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:44 pm

Yep, SNEL helmet is in the mail with gauntlets. Ill live with no skin on the lower half of my body if I have to.

Oatnet, the backpack is tall enough it was actually braced on the wheel and then held securely against the handlebars by one strap on each side. It didn't move during the sitting still test; i did not do a rolling one which might make all the difference. I just felt like I noticed the top heaviness of the bike, and the way that the bars wanted to follow gravity once angled left or right with that much weight on them. No decisions have yet been made :). With new lipo out of my budget for the time being I may end up plugging in the backpack in the long run just to roll it. My backpack is 1.5kwh and about 16 kilos. It's a lot to hang on the front all ready, and I would rather gain capacity then lose it going from my weaker bike to this more powerful one. My dream is to run 36s2p of the 8ah nanos. I will probably settle this summer for rolling at 24s3p, or if I do the Makita route it will all depend on how many good cells I get; It will need to be at least 10-12p of the 1.3ah cells, so if I got say 360 I could do 30s12p. That's a lot to get out of the packs I might buy though.

like your Kokopelli tat as well it help you out with the ladies ? hehe


Thanks; all I will say is it is there because of two different girls in my past. It is special to me and has a lot of deep meaning wrapped up in a simple iconograph. I suppose, objectively, on my white skinny frame it stands out quite well and looks hot as hell. But it doesn't make me arrogant; I'm too wary of being full of myself.

:P
Last edited by Andje on Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35652
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby Andje » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:18 pm

If i went with the makitas, I'd do something like this with the controller on the front and bats in the red section. Bumpers or something for the controller since it would hit if flipped; something i do not like about this idea...
right side with mockup.jpg
right side with mockup.jpg (128.02 KiB) Viewed 8056 times


Link to my motor rebuild if you want to see it:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=35855
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35652
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby jpgey » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:56 pm

:shock:
Awesome !
I find my master !!!!
Please please please share your work around your Arduino dev !
JP
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby Andje » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:09 pm

god that's scary; please do not label me master; i am a mere padawan yet :).
The arduino dev will be a year long one, but the more i look at doing relays and precharge circuits and contactors and brake and indicator lights... the more i don't want to do it with relays and timing circuits; although I have only begun, I'm learning digi logic now in college, and I am inspired by the possibilities. I will share everything I learn, always, free, forever. If I have a living philosophy it is that.

I am for instance, surprised at how no one (at least i am not aware) has done a throttle to arduino to controller; for 24 bucks a programmable usb interface for throttle control is pretty interesting imho, and its just an analog in and an analog out with some extremely simple code. Maybe I'll learn why it's not done as I understand more, or maybe I'll just be the first to do it :).
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35652
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby jpgey » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:24 pm

I think because it is too much time consuming and there are so much things to fix for a full diy ebike !
Some usefulls links about Arduino and bike controller
http://www.arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1293815594
I cannot wait any more for picture of your amazing motor !
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby Andje » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:46 pm

So I bought Slycayer's lot of 38 makita 18v 3 ah packs, they were guaranteed at 12v. This means either there is one pair if cells dead or all 10 are in the 2's. I spent last night and today opening them and checking each pack and each parallel group.

I ended with:
188 Grade "A" cells at 3.5V or higher
140 Grade "B" cells at 2.5v or higher
17 Grade "C" cells at 2.5v or lower
35 Grade "D" cells for Dead

Most common problem is shorting due to the nickel tabs wearing through the plastic insulator around the cells; you can usually see where it has happened on a 0v cell. Many of my B grade cells are whole packs sitting at <3.0v; they seem to be taking a charge well. So far most resistance is around 50-60 mohms, I charged one Grade "A" pack up to 4.1 and found it to get REALLY hot, and it registered an IR of 221 mohm; I am hoping there wont be any more of those. One pack was 0v before opening, when I looked it had a couple ruptured cells. Slycayer kindly said to message him if any ended up like that; I am going to charge everything before I msg him with a final tally as it were.

As far as I can tell, I have 328 Grade A/B cells. I'm hoping to have at least 300 for a 30s10p.

Grade A's on the left, B's in the middle and charging to the right.
makitas.jpg
makitas.jpg (133.75 KiB) Viewed 7854 times


And here is the full garbage bag of all the plastic case crap.
makita detritus.jpg
makita detritus.jpg (110.88 KiB) Viewed 7854 times
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35652
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby Andje » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:23 pm

well so far all my grade B cells are taking and holding a charge. 2 cells were dead when i went to charge, so I'm at 138 Grade B's, 19 Grade C's.
I'm charging with the 1420i hyperion, it won't allow you to charge "dead" cells as a group. So it's one by one up to 10% TPS (about 3.65v) then I charge another pack and then string em together to charge at 10s. It will be easier when i hit the A cells; strings of 14s and charge, unless they are really out of balance.
Looks like I found someone to do my lathework on my motor. So that is truly in the works...
I'm looking heavily into fiberglass/carbon fibre for the body panels that will hold the batteries. I'm pretty sure I'm going to integrate a fender of some sort with brake and signal lights.
Seems like a long process mostly based around doing each step perfectly since it all builds on itself. However! As far as I can tell, very doable. So. The plan currently is to
1. finish battery ID, test discharge and capacity using hyperion and usb to make graphs, then I will match based upon capacity.
2. fit battery to bike in chunks so as to know were it will go and the final internal shape.
3. make foam peices in shape of batteries, wrap in masking tape, imbed in more foam on bike.
4. carve outer foam to final shape without disturbing pre=wrapped batt sections, decide upon mounting system for frame attachment
5. protect frame and foam with mould release, tooling gel then fiberglass, one side at a time to make two female mold split vertically
6. 2-3 layers carbon fibre with nomex honeycomb for stiffness in supporting sections, vaccum bagged to the mold
7. Clean, polish, perhaps paint.
I'm still at amateur level in understanding the composite construction, but it seems like most other things; there is information available and it's not endlessly expensive, you just have to be confident and precise and not cut monetary corners cause you think you know best.
Last edited by Andje on Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35652
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby valsislav » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:38 pm

This is an enjoyable thread - thanks Andje. :)
All the exercise, twice the scenery ~
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby Andje » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:00 pm

sooo I'm still doing battery testing. I got all the B cells charged, They all held 4.1+V over a couple days.
I hooked my Hyperion up to my computer via usb, and am now running discharge cycles on all the B cells. It is amazing to say the least; incredibly detailed graph down to the third decimal, and incredibly accurate.
I charged to 4.2 and then discharged to 3.5/3.8 load/resting, got a first reading of mah, and then discharged down to 3.2/3.5 and got the rest of the mah reading. So far, I am getting between 2650 and 3000mah. IR is a bit high averaging at 100mohms.
I am thoroughly enjoying the graphs the hyperion puts out. I can't wait to start testing the "A"cells.
If i get 325 usable cells I can make a 35s9p pack for 12-13 ah at 147v fully charged. That would be perfect for the Kelly.
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35652
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby sn0wchyld » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:28 pm

subbed mate. I love how many people are getting alines now!! its a shame were not all in the same contry, it'd be wild to have a norko Eline group ride!! Though I fear the pace would leave you a bit bored andje!

a twin hx35 motor... my god man. that's gonna fly.'

edit
that norko was a fing steal mate. good work.
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby Andje » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:47 am

Well, B cells are done, and they all tested at 2500-2800 mah, so within 85-90%, which I can live with. If each cell is 1.35-1.4 mah then a 9-10 p battery will give me 12-14 ah in total. With 144 volts or so I will have a nearly 2kw pack.
A's are testing now.
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35652
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby Andje » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:01 am

My buddy just showed me these; seems like an on/off switch I haven't seen listed on e-s before, might be interesting for those of us pushing 100v+. I had resigned myself to a contactor but would still prefer a switch to save weight and space.
http://www.robotmarketplace.com/products/0-SWHELLA2.html
Image
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35652
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby binlagin » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:02 am

I'm SO buying one of those switches! Thanks!!!
Greyborg Motor, 18-FET Lyen Controller
Turnigy 20C @ 30S x 2P
Giant Team DH Bike, Kiwi Dropout adapters
100km/h+
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby zombiess » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:21 pm

Welcome to ES which use to stand for endless-sphere but now stands for Extreme Speed.

Your dual motor setup is going to be certifiably nuts. If you think wire cutters gave you blisters I can only imagine what the rewind is going to do... ouch. Wish I had the skills and patience to do this kind of a project. I could go as far as drawing it, but that's it, rest would have to be done by someone with way more fab skills than me. I'll stick to playing with electronics where I might be able to make a contribution to the community some day.
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby Andje » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:48 pm

Thanks zombiess.
Yeah, I'm lucky I found a teacher willing to help me with the project in terms of machining; it does speak to my talents however that I was looking into buying lathes or building milling/cnc machine when I found no company willing to help on the mechanical side. I have mostly only knowledge accumulated from this forum, my own contributions to the pool are mostly building a battery backpack. This motor the kind of project as you say that is easy to figure out and hard to get done; I STILL didn't think I could attempt it until I watched Farfle's thread. I only finally understood the winding pattern once thud and parabellum had explained it. Still, when it's done it will be a unique thing, if not a unique strategy to do a double wide stator.

The motor is moving along; I met with my teacher again this week to talk about the project; he says everything I want to do will be cake. A few decisions to make, but most of the dimensions are limited by what we have already and 150mm dropouts.
I was worried about the axle but he says that will be easy too; so will enlarging the cover hole for a larger thinner bearing and a spacer with holes for all the wires instead of a slot in the axle. Knurling, not a problem. Keyway, not a problem. I was all smiles and we will start it next week; I would hope to be into the winding by mid february.

In other news, I'm not sure the second hand Kelly I was going to buy will make it; I haven't had any further communication from the seller in a few days even though we had all but confirmed the sale. I maintain hope but am beginning to worry.
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35652
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby Andje » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:06 pm

Well, I had some personal shit go down today, and while trying to distract myself I decided to charge a bunch of my batteries. I happily linked them together, plugged them into the hyperion and there was an explosion. Turns out I seriesd them instead of paralleling them and plugged 207 volts into my hyperion. Sigh... 170$ later and I have a new one on the way. Memo to all; do not try and distract yourself with high voltage stuff if you are in no state to be playing with it.
Such a shitty day...
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35652
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby ohzee » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:08 pm

Sorry to hear that bud. I can attest to doing shit while not being there mentally so causing issues.

:(
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Re: Norco A-line 144v 200amp Lipo 150km/h build

Postby Andje » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:13 pm

The funny thing is this is actually the second time the same girl caused me to ruin a charger in my distraction. The first time it was reverse polarity to the meanwells. I should really know better.
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35652
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Andje
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