Adam's Norco A-Line 2009 with HS3540

I made some modification to upgrade the bike utilities. Initially:


Now I basicaly added a DH kickstand designed to fit an A-Line + the rear mudguard is now acting as a mudguard.


Steering at low speed is a bit odd although I get used to it quickly. As soon as you go above 25kph, the feeling is awesome. Steering is really quick, I would compare it as driving a 400 lbs motorcycle. Pretty stable at high speed and in curves. The weight at the front prevent any chance for me to make wheeling even if I didn't increase my wheel base distance. ( controller is limited at 45 A though )

Data:

Battery pack weight : 23.4 lbs ([100.8V], 24S, 2P, 30C, 16Ah Lipo) [specific energy 130-200 Wh/kg]: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...lightmax_8000mAh_6S1P_30C_AUS_Warehouse_.html
Bike weight with battery pack : 96.4 lbs
Bike + driver ( me @ 175 lbs ): 271.4 lbs
Max speed according to CA : 88 kph ( 55 mph ) ( Controller is limited at 45 A )
Bike: Norco A Line 2009 Park Edition, Medium frame: http://www.norco.com/archives/2009/?id=48a31c94f3e4f
Motor : Crystalyte HS3540
Controller: Lyen 150V : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=18605
Schlumpf drive: 34 T front, 14 T rear. High Speed Drive ( 2.5:1 ) Efficient pedaling up to 50 km/h ( 31 mph )http://www.schlumpf.ch/hp/hsd/hsd_engl.htm
Run time : average is roughly 90min @ 35 kph (22 mph). Distance = 50km ( 31 miles )
Charge time : 3hours @ 1/2C ( limited by my power supply ). It will go down to 45min @ 2C once the new charger is built.
Charge cost : 0.20$ / 100km ( 60miles )
Average of 26 WH/km @ 35 kmh (22 mph)
Average of 35 WH/km @ 50 kmh (31 mph)



Now, the development part:

I only made one E-bike before this one, but the experience I got from riding in Montreal's road at 70 kph without suspenison is ... Frightening!!!

So, this time I openned the wallet and bought a DH Norco A-Line Park Edition 2009:



The Motor is a Crystalyte HS3540:



The 2009 A-Line was chosen mainly because of its removable dropouts. The first task was to scan those dropouts on a 3D scanner then rebuild those on the CAD.

My initial goal was to make them stronger around the pivot, as well as the break attachment and add the 7.5mm per dropout to be able to fit the HS3540 in this 150mm frame.

Original dropout:



changes to be made:



Rendered result:






I have a small CNC at home, but those dropout are too big for the machine capacity. The quote to make this set was 1500$ and 520$ from two local machine shop in 6061-T6 ...

Price was just too high so I went with the plan B. (modify and re-use the old drop-out then glue or press fit an insert as Doctorbass did.)

Insert in Dormex 100 or S.S.:



Result pres fit + DP 420 epoxy:



The extra 7.5 mm is included in the insert to fit the 135mm requirement for the HS3540 motor.



Now, from CAD to reality:
Each insert was 85$ and were made from Francois G. I did the modification on the Alu dropout with my CNC and a jig that I designed.






Press fit result:


Assembly part 1:


Assembly part 2 with nut, washer and lock washer:


Assembly part 3:



The wheelbase is then exactly the same (1170mm or 46in). 22 lbs of LiPo battery at the front, 100.8v, 16Ah and the Lyen controller limit the current at 45A. This weight/current set-up prevent the front wheel from lifting.


Front box: I use a Seahorse 520 http://www.seahorse.net/se520.aspx sealed lockable box for the Front battery pack:
They also offer to modify the box cutouts if you send them a 3d drawing.



I made the box holder out of Black Delrin. The box contain 24S2P Zippy LiPo battery. 100,8V 16AH ( roughly 22 lbs ):





The battery is packaged in a 2mm foam layer and is removable by releasing 2 velcro straps ( not shown ).


Key switch + 6 pin connector for charging with protective cap + delrin holder are shown on this view.

The velcro strap anchor are bolted in the Delrin holder with a 1 1/2" bolt:


Completed battery pack ( 24S, 2P, 30C, 16Ah Lipo, 23.4 lbs)
I'm using 2mm foam around all battery.
The battery is removable as an assembly and come with the balance cable as shown below:


Battery strapped with velcro inside the box. Centered and constrained.


Charging area in the garage:


Home made charger with 4 x Turnigy 200W unit. They are connected in serie and each is powered by an isolated individual power supply. This allow me to charge without disconnecting anything.


Not having a stand is annoying, so I made a hanging support to stabilize the bike. It allow me also to remove the front wheel easily as the wheel is 1/4" above ground.


After 935km done on my initial battery pack ( 41 cycles ) charging cost is just below 2$


Of course the CA bracket didnt fit between the stems brackets... so I decided to make a stronger holder.

Material is black Delrin. Mass = 56g





Since the Seahorse box is waterproof and there is limited air flow inside, I was worried about the battery temperature inside the box.
I designed and added a holder + temperature sensor to monitor it while running. ( temperature sensor is inside, near the top of the box )
After several rides under hot and sunny days, the internal temperature never reached 40 deg C.




I also adapted the GPS holder on top of the box:
Bolted from inside the box, (sorry about the muddy picture )


Temp sensor + GPS in place:


I bought a 5 led rear reflector that have a vibration sensor + a light sensor.
This one will activate by himself when its dark outside and stop after 4 min of "no vibration" activity.
Since no useful bracket came with it, I decided to make a decent one custom fit to my rear fender:




A-Line DH Kickstand:

Alu 6061-T6 black painted designed pieces with a modified 10$ kickstand.

Very nice project! Can't wait to see it done.

Ha! good to see yet another aline in the works! damn I wish I had access/the cad skills for that type of machining...

I'd suggest designing clamping drop-outs via a pinch bolt, as getting a enclosed dropout to fit snugly on these axles is near impossible, given they will loosen up over time. Also it makes removing the rear wheel a simpler and faster process, ie 2 bolts vs 9. I'll be modding mine to be pinch bolts fairly soon...

good work! what kind of cnc do you have?

Yeah mighty nice to see another A-Line build in the works. Frankly I bought that 2009 frame, inspired by Oatnet, Sn0wychild and Fractal's builds... Now I have another one to draw inspiration/ideas from.

Love the Magicshine mounted to the Pelican Case. You should mount one on each side, it will give you the appearance of depth. When a car comes hastily to the top of a street and glances left for an opening, two lights look like an oncoming car & might be the difference between them stopping and not.

**subscribed!**

Awesome.
You must be in the business? CNC or Design or something.
You have mad skills.
Canadian too. :wink:

Im going to have to take a ride out East & meet some of you mad men.

I'll do Ottawa, Montreal, then Quebec City trip. Need to see the Doctor.
From here in Barrie, ON.
Sorry YPedal. I'll make it to Moncton someday.
I'm part Newf' & have lots of family still on the Rock.
I've never been, but it's on the bucketlist.
Maybe I'll stop on the way. :wink:


Keep us updated.

Thanks for all the kind words guys.

sn0wchyld said:

I'd suggest designing clamping drop-outs via a pinch bolt, as getting a enclosed dropout to fit snugly on these axles is near impossible.

Click to expand...

I am not sure myself if a clamping drop-out is required with so much meat to hold the shaft, but I agree that the shaft will always move a litle if not clamped.

It could be something like this in order to avoid removing too many screws :

fractal said:

good work! what kind of cnc do you have?

Click to expand...

I have a small EMCO PC mill 50. 170 x 90 mm working area only.

MattyCiii said:

Love the Magicshine mounted to the Pelican Case. You should mount one on each side, it will give you the appearance of depth

Click to expand...

Agreed, I will mount 2 total, I just need to order a new one.

Brentis said:

You must be in the business? CNC or Design or something.
You have mad skills.
Canadian too. :wink:

Click to expand...

Thanks I dont have much experience in bike, but I have 15 years experience doing 3D CAD design, and maybe 10 years doing CNC programing/milling/turning.

Really nice CAD work!

Keep the design files. So many people here use triple-crown forks, I'll bet you can make some money on the side machining those Delrin case mounts as a kit for people who want to copy your arrangement. Such attention to detail, this will be a beautiful bike all told.

looking VERY good!! Best of luck!

adam333 said:

Thanks for all the kind words guys.

sn0wchyld said:

I'd suggest designing clamping drop-outs via a pinch bolt, as getting a enclosed dropout to fit snugly on these axles is near impossible.

Click to expand...

I am not sure myself if a clamping drop-out is required with so much meat to hold the shaft, but I agree that the shaft will always move a litle if not clamped.

It could be something like this in order to avoid removing too many screws :

......................
Thanks I dont have much experience in bike, but I have 15 years experience doing 3D CAD design, and maybe 10 years doing CNC programing/milling/turning.

Click to expand...

yep thats pretty much exactly what I have in mind for my own too! just 1 m6-m8 bolt per dropout would probably be plenty too I'd have thought.

I got the quote... 1500$ for a set if done by the local machine shop in 6061-T6 ... I wish I had a CNC that could machine stainless steel.

I wasnt expecting such a high price for the drop-out. If I order 3 set in 6061-T6, the price go down to 650$ per set.

A cheaper possible solution would be to re-use the old drop-out modified and glue an insert as Doctorbass did.

WOW.
Great to see the alternative... There are a lot of A-Liners out here...

How many more A-liner's until we can say "We are Legion"?
Welcome to the fold.

Andje said:

How many more A-liner's until we can say "We are Legion"?
Welcome to the fold.

Click to expand...

He he, not so many more. Norco is almost finished selling this batch of A-line frames. They've been going for cheap because, unlike the previous version, this one didn't do good with the DH - Freeride crowd. I bet Norco will never risk making another A-Line again. The new Aurum and Truax (repacing the Team DH and A-Line) have a completely redesigned suspension frame that is more likely to make a success on the tracks.

MadRhino said:

Andje said:

How many more A-liner's until we can say "We are Legion"?
Welcome to the fold.

Click to expand...

He he, not so many more. Norco is almost finished selling this batch of A-line frames. They've been going for cheap because, unlike the previous version, this one didn't do good with the DH - Freeride crowd. I bet Norco will never risk making another A-Line again. The new Aurum and Truax (repacing the Team DH and A-Line) have a completely redesigned suspension frame that is more likely to make a success on the tracks.

Click to expand...

'tis a shame, to be sure... maybe they need to go into the ebike business??

Impressive progress Adam, and welcome to the A-Line Army! I really like where you are going with this build, I look forward to watching it unfold.

Love the front-mount battery box! I put the controller up-front on my wife's bike, but I haven't had the acerage to do it on my other builds; are you sure it won't hit the front wheel when the suspension is compressed? Also, I'd consider super-beefy phase wires for the long run to the motor. BTW, the plastic version of my Magudaman dropouts fit perfectly, but the Ally version didn't give like the plastic did, so you still may see some filing when you get to metal.

-JD

oatnet said:

Impressive progress Adam, and welcome to the A-Line Army! I really like where you are going with this build, I look forward to watching it unfold.

Love the front-mount battery box! I put the controller up-front on my wife's bike, but I haven't had the acerage to do it on my other builds; are you sure it won't hit the front wheel when the suspension is compressed? Also, I'd consider super-beefy phase wires for the long run to the motor. BTW, the plastic version of my Magudaman dropouts fit perfectly, but the Ally version didn't give like the plastic did, so you still may see some filing when you get to metal.

-JD

Click to expand...

Thanks Oatnet. Right now, the clearance is 200mm from the wheel to the bottom of the box. Hopefully, this should be enough as I will mainly ride in town's road.

As for the phase wire, I had overheating issues with the previous bike, so I bought 8 AWG 200C wire from KingHobby.

I am fairly confident about the dropout fit as I increased the clearance but we will see. Considering the expensive cost to have the drop out made, I started looking at the possibility to re-use the old one and have some insert made out of S.S. press fit/glued on.




insert S.S.: 85$ ea ( lowest quote so far )


Ideally, I would have Magudaman doing the drop out for me

Btw, did you notice any problems so far with your Alu 7075 dropouts?

Sadly, since the CroMotor side of the build went belly up, I've been stuck waiting for the xlyte 54xx group buy to arrive, and haven't been able to test the dropouts yet. Your press-fit insert idea is brilliant, never even occurred to me and I pondered the problem long and hard.

-JD

My best quote on insert is 85 $ ea. Other were charging 175$ and 250$ ea.

If any one is interested to buy some, let me know. I will place an order tomorrow.

adam333 said:

I got the quote... 1500$ for a set if done by the local machine shop in 6061-T6 ... I wish I had a CNC that could machine stainless steel.

I wasnt expecting such a high price for the drop-out.

Click to expand...

What could you do on your CNC, if you take small cuts? The design is plenty beefy enough that you shouldn't need exotic materials. I would just modify the design so you can do it on your own CNC.

Oh and chuck it through the quick linear FEA in you CAD package if you have access. After a couple of different load cases you should quickly find where you might be able to simplify the design.

- Adrian

It take an eternity to work Alu on that CNC, but I will ask a new quote to the same guy that is doing the insert for me. I had to cut a part of the break section to be able to do the plastic prototype. This is why I am not atempting it on my CNC.

Sadly, I dont have FEA available =/

What a shame. I thought that was the beauty of home CNC, that you can just program it up and let it run, so you don't care how long it takes.

Oh well. In that case chat to the guys doing the quote, and see how you can get some cost out. There might just be a couple of difficult things that is driving the cost.

Good luck.

Last and best price so far for a set of drop-out in 7075-T6 Alu ( not the one with insert ): 520$

I got my S.S. inserts from Francois Gingras this week. 85$ ea.



Pressed fit result:



Assembly part 1:


Assembly part 2 with nut, washer and lock washer:


Assembly part 3:


I started cabling the controller, 200 deg C 8awg wires for the phases:


Here is the key switch + the access for charging ( there is a protector cap on it ):


Inside the box, design have changed for the bracket ( all images are upside down )
Battery pack will be removable. I will strap it in place with velcro.
Top right is the power supply for the Leds lamp.
Bottom right is the Fuse holder.
I plan to add a temperature sensor too.

adam333 said:

I got my S.S. inserts from Francois Gingras this week. 85$ ea.

Pressed fit result:

Assembly part 1:

Assembly part 2 with nut, washer and lock washer:

Assembly part 3:

I started cabling the controller, 200 deg C 8awg wires for the phases:

Here is the key switch + the access for charging ( there is a protector cap on it ):

Inside the box, design have changed for the bracket ( all images are upside down )
Battery pack will be removable. I will strap it in place with velcro.
Top right is the power supply for the Leds lamp.
Bottom right is the Fuse holder.
I plan to add a temperature sensor too.

Click to expand...

looking really nice mate! can I trouble you for a full bike photo? I'd like to see how subtle the whole thing looks with the front box.
Alternatively I can wait till she's finished!!

Its going to be interesting riding with the same wheelbase... the front box should help but I'm guessing it'll lift the front without too much trouble !