A-Lines Abound: First ride after some major changes

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MattyCiii   100 kW

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A-Lines Abound: First ride after some major changes

Post by MattyCiii » Feb 26 2012 7:57pm

Call me late to the party, but I've joined the A-Line club. Here's my build:

Image

A medium frame Norco A-Line, pedal powered on the right by legs through a NuVinci N360, electric power on the left via a Recumpense DaVinci drive.

Lots of pieces missing... The next to be installed will be the shock, a used Fox DHX 5.0. I'm installing it with a needle bearing kit from Real World Cycling (http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id275.html), I hear they're worth the cost.
Image

Hopefully I'll have at least a pedal bike out of it soon, seat post and seat are on order but have not even purchased chain, chainring or cranks yet (I have some ISIS front freewheel trials cranks lying around, is there such a thing as thread-on front chainring adapter?)
Last edited by MattyCiii on Jun 11 2017 10:05pm, edited 41 times in total.
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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MattyCiii   100 kW

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by MattyCiii » Feb 26 2012 7:58pm

The bike in its current form.

Updated 1 August 2012
Image

Current configuration (Updated 19 July 2014:
I'm going to maintain and update the present day configuration of the bike here so it's easy to find.

Motor: Astro 3220, (4 or 5) turn

Drive components - guiding principles:
1. No smaller than 20t belt driver. I tried a 16t driver (on my other bike) but it wore out in less than 1 year use.
2. Use odd number teeth, preferably prime number, for sprockets/freewheels/chainrings to make teeth wear more evenly.

Electric drive:
Performance - excellent. Very satisfying acceleration and top speed (speedo inop, top speed unknown)
Future upgrades: Consider 43 tooth chainring on second reduction, for parts standardization (same chainring as on human side drive).
CAv3 setting: . . . . . . . . . . . . . Throttle up-ramp: 0.05 X/yyy
Primary reduction: . . . . . . . . . 1:5 via 20 tooth driver to 100 tooth pulley
Secondary reduction: . . . . . . . 1:2.41 via 17 tooth freewheel to 41 tooth chainring
Total reduction: . . . . . . . . . . . 1:12.05

Human drive:
Performance - I recently changed the rear cog from 18t to 21t to get a better low end. This worked... too well, and I lost enough high end gearing to make the system uncomfortable at speed. I will tweak some more to get some of that high end range back at the cost of losing some granny. (An alternative would be to upgrade the ATS Speed Drive with a Schlumpf High Speed Drive, but that's very expensive.
Future changes: Consider changing the rear cog with a 19t for better ttop end human input.
Front chainring: 43t
Rear cog: 21t
Last edited by MattyCiii on Jul 19 2014 12:07pm, edited 3 times in total.
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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MattyCiii   100 kW

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by MattyCiii » Feb 26 2012 7:58pm

What's next:
1) Finding a place to mount the electric drive.
2) Fabricating brackets to hold the drive in that place.
3) Figuring out where to mount the batteries.
Last edited by MattyCiii on Aug 04 2012 7:00pm, edited 1 time in total.
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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MattyCiii   100 kW

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by MattyCiii » Feb 26 2012 7:58pm

Reserved
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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fractal   1 kW

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by fractal » Feb 26 2012 8:04pm

Love those wheels Matt!!!! Subscribed!!!
Norco A-line DH bike with :
«cromotor/hubzilla» from http://www.greyborg.com/
24s 3p Lipo (100v, 15ah)
Methods LVC/HVC cell level protection system http://www.methtek.com
24 fet infineon controller made by Lyen, heavily moded by Methods
8awg harness by Icecube57
17 inch moped rims with Michelin Gazelle tires by John Rob Holmes http://www.holmeshobbies.com
other stuff http://www.ebikes.ca

details
http://www.helicamguide.com

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MattyCiii   100 kW

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by MattyCiii » Feb 26 2012 8:26pm

Those are certifiable ES wheels:
Spokes by JRH,
Rims from the Recumpense 47mm wide, 406mm rim group buy.
The tires are Pirelli 16" x 2.5" moped tires. Something I never would have thought would fit a 406mm rim without the ES collective knowledge base.

Up front the hub is a Lefty (of course) hub custom machined by Project321 (http://www.project321.com/), who was incredibly helpful in getting me the right parts to fit a lefty fork to the Norco. Stopping power from a Hayes Prime Pro and 203mm disk.
Image


Out back the wheel is laced to that NuVinci N360. I've removed my dropouts in anticipation of Magudaman's replacements http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 10#p518345 coming hopefully in March.
Image

I gotta thank MadRhino for the tip about Magura Gustav M brakes
Image, there's not a lot of room between the brake rotor and the drive sprocket.
Last edited by MattyCiii on Apr 07 2012 3:34pm, edited 2 times in total.
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by ohzee » Feb 26 2012 8:39pm

I do love those norco's.. sweet a$$ bike's that's for sure.

Look forward to the build.

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by Andje » Feb 27 2012 8:29am

Welcome to the a-line build club. There are surely more of us building these bikes then riding them at the moment, so you're not late to the party yet! I'd say this summer will be owned by the A-lines :). You're the first using a Davinci drive though; the rest of us so far are doing hubbie builds. I wish you the best of luck!
Norco 125 Dirt Jumper
100v 15ah Lipo Backpack
lyens 18 fet, 100v 100 amps, R12 Regen
x5304- 95km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=24594
Norco A-Line Park 2009
144v Kelly 300amp
5403/ future HS60
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=35652

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by kfong » Feb 27 2012 9:08am

Nice DH setup. Wheels look amazing.

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by MattyCiii » Feb 28 2012 6:42am

Not even 1/2 built and I'm already making changes. I'm using Magura Gustav M brakes on the rear because of the tiny, ~10mm clearance between the left hand chainring and the brake rotor. I got the Gustav as a pair of used brakes through Pinkbikes - I paid $250 for the pair, bleed kit, and a bunch of parts including rotors and pads to last me a long time.

Now I'm thinking - why use the Hayes on the front - why not go with Gustav front and rear? That way I can standardize on one type of brake, carry only one type of spare pad, and have all that Gustav stopping goodness on the front, where it'll do me some good. Of course, I don't have the correct mount to use the front on my fork, so I'll have to figure out which one is right for me and buy more parts...
Last edited by MattyCiii on Apr 07 2012 3:35pm, edited 2 times in total.
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 28 2012 8:03am

HA were breeding like rabbits it seems!
Andje wrote:Welcome to the a-line build club. There are surely more of us building these bikes then riding them at the moment, so you're not late to the party yet! I'd say this summer will be owned by the A-lines :). You're the first using a Davinci drive though; the rest of us so far are doing hubbie builds. I wish you the best of luck!
Andje, your comment got me thinking... am I the only one atm with a running aline? I saw one short vid where someone (cant remember who) had extended the wheelbase by like 1.5 feet :shock: , but dont know if that was just prototyping...





mattyc how are you dealing with the BB height given your running effectively ~22" wheels front and back? I'm striking all the time unless I'm going straight, and even then only when it's pretty flat! mine's a 26" front, 22.6" rear (mX rim/tyre)

LOVE the lefty. It still amazes me that they can be built strong enough to withstand all the abuse DH/XC brings, but that one looks beefy enough for sure!

what motor are you using? Have you given any thought to putting it just infront of the rear wheel, in the space created by the smaller wheel + extended drop-outs?

I think I'll be joining you in the non-hub aline club by years end... the HT works well, but I do miss the nimble rear end/suspension...

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MattyCiii   100 kW

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by MattyCiii » Feb 28 2012 8:51am

sn0wchyld wrote:mattyc how are you dealing with the BB height given your running effectively ~22" wheels front and back? I'm striking all the time unless I'm going straight, and even then only when it's pretty flat! mine's a 26" front, 22.6" rear (mX rim/tyre)
Good question. I definitely want to pedal this bike a lot - though it will be a beast. I'll have to get short little crank arms. I'll also have to specify a "lowering" of the dropouts when it comes time to commission replacements. I want to go 2" to the rear already. For every 1" down, that's like adding 2" in wheel diameter, right? Maybe I'll have to go 2" down, 2" back. A longer shock would help too, wouldn't it?
sn0wchyld wrote:LOVE the lefty. It still amazes me that they can be built strong enough to withstand all the abuse DH/XC brings, but that one looks beefy enough for sure!

I love how there are as many genres of bikes as there are breeds of dog. Beach cruisers, trials bikes, BMX, I can tell these apart. But I can't tell between some of the close cousins - what makes a DH bike different than a FS mountain bike?
When I was talking to Project321 about putting a Lefty on the Norco, they warned me a Lefty is not tough enough for DH use. That's fine with me, at age 44 I don't think I'm in the shape, nor frame of mind, to take up DH cycling. This build is more along the lines of Fractal's A-Line... a way overbuilt commuter bike where I don't have to swerve around potholes or blink when taking curbs. I'm sure the Lefty will handle that!
sn0wchyld wrote:what motor are you using?
I'll be using a low KV Astro 3220 run through a Recumpense DaVinci drive. The Astro is on order.
sn0wchyld wrote:Have you given any thought to putting it just infront of the rear wheel, in the space created by the smaller wheel + extended drop-outs?
That's my plan! DaVinci drive will be very light compared to those monster motors people are putting on these bikes. And forward in the triangle mitigates its unsprung weight even more. Hell, maybe I won't even need a chain tensioner on the left side - we'll see.
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 28 2012 9:30am

MattyCiii wrote:
sn0wchyld wrote:mattyc how are you dealing with the BB height given your running effectively ~22" wheels front and back? I'm striking all the time unless I'm going straight, and even then only when it's pretty flat! mine's a 26" front, 22.6" rear (mX rim/tyre)
Good question. I definitely want to pedal this bike a lot - though it will be a beast. I'll have to get short little crank arms. I'll also have to specify a "lowering" of the dropouts when it comes time to commission replacements. I want to go 2" to the rear already. For every 1" down, that's like adding 2" in wheel diameter, right? Maybe I'll have to go 2" down, 2" back. A longer shock would help too, wouldn't it?
sounds right to me

MattyCiii wrote: I'll be using a low KV Astro 3220 run through a Recumpense DaVinci drive. The Astro is on order.
sn0wchyld wrote:Have you given any thought to putting it just infront of the rear wheel, in the space created by the smaller wheel + extended drop-outs?
That's my plan! DaVinci drive will be very light compared to those monster motors people are putting on these bikes. And forward in the triangle mitigates its unsprung weight even more. Hell, maybe I won't even need a chain tensioner on the left side - we'll see.
Great! Exactly what I was thinking for mine too! except using a 80100 rewound for about 55kv, running on about 60-70 volts and a 2 speed dogbox if I can get it all to fit.

Any thoughts to battery placement? I'm buying some new lipo so I can squeze 24s8ah into a box that'll go on the handlebars.


ps
where 'bouts are you from?

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MattyCiii   100 kW

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by MattyCiii » Feb 28 2012 9:54am

sn0wchyld wrote:Any thoughts to battery placement? I'm buying some new lipo so I can squeze 24s8ah into a box that'll go on the handlebars.
Well with the Lefty, I'll have to be creative with placing batteries up front. That is Plan A though. Plan B is to always ride wearing cargo pants...
sn0wchyld wrote: ps
where 'bouts are you from?
Boston Mass. I just updated my profile. There's a chance I'll cross paths with ES member Gestalt tonight at a bicycling event here in Bean Town.
Last edited by MattyCiii on Mar 02 2012 9:22pm, edited 1 time in total.
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by gestalt » Feb 29 2012 1:06am

MattyCiii wrote:There's a chance I'll cross paths with ES member Gestalt tonight at a bicycling event here in Bean Town.

Damn straight, now I've met two ES members in person.

That Aline is looking sweet. With a davinci drive, astro and a bunch of lipo you'll be rockin the baddest ebike in Boston. Not a lot of competition for that title, but none the less.

As for me, I need about 20 feet of some 1 1/2" chromolly to bend a new frame out of on the 'ol fire escape. Oh...and my tax return.
- be seeing you
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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by recumpence » Feb 29 2012 8:41am

Looks good.

There are a number of us working on downhill bikes with 20 inch wheels right now. I have two full suspension freeride frames (not quite as beefy as a downhill frame, but with longer suspension than a cross country FS bike) that I am looking at. As for bottom bracket hight, yes, you will want to do something about that. I am making a custom rear suspension linkage on my Diamondback X6 frame to accomplish this. One thing about raising the rear end is that the headtube angle increases as you raise the rear. However, a downhill frame already has a relaxed headtube angle. So, increasing it slightly may not make that much difference. I do like the longer wheelbase that a 26 inch bike with 20 inch wheels appears to have. It looks more like a motorcycle. 26 (or even worse, 29) inch bikes have a distinct bicycle look to them, while a 26 inch frame/20 inch wheel setup definately looks more motorcycle.

Matt
1% of the world's population can think "Outside the box". The rest are firmly stuck within the box. Where are you?

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by zombiess » Feb 29 2012 2:48pm

ZombieSS like 20" wheels on A-Line :D Check's bank account... nope, not happening for a while, too many other projects.

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by MattyCiii » Feb 29 2012 6:45pm

Here are some pictures of the tires/wheels. I took them to cross/post with this post http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 60#p542254, but also to show the wheel in relation to a close cousin: 406mm bike tires on a more standard bike rim.

Both front and rear are 406mm x 47mm rims (from the Recumpense group buy) with Pirelli moped tires:
Image

Here's the whole thing, laced into a NuVinci N360. Mmmmmmm, beefy!
Image

Here it is next to another 406mm wheel from my "daily driver" Dahon folding bike.
Image

The Schwalbe is a 20x1.6 inch tire. Here it is alone:
Image

And here they are stacked.
Image
Last edited by MattyCiii on Mar 02 2012 9:24pm, edited 1 time in total.
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by rojitor » Feb 29 2012 6:58pm

So those are the rims of the group buy, those wheels make most motorcycles feel jealous :)

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by etard » Feb 29 2012 9:37pm

That's the perfect setup for high powered ebike for the streets, I can't wait to get my spokes in to lace this up! Those dropouts are sick too man. About the BB clearance on 20's, just put some 150mm crank arms on and you'll have a nice low bike and still have pedal clearance on turns. :twisted:

Hey can you put your calipers around those tires? I'm wondering if the wider rim profile flattens out the tire face at all.
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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by MattyCiii » Feb 29 2012 9:53pm

etard wrote:Hey can you put your calipers around those tires? I'm wondering if the wider rim profile flattens out the tire face at all.
67mm.

I have about 4mm clearance between the Lefty and the tire up front!
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by Byte » Mar 01 2012 10:47am

Nice! Will follow this one! :)

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by zombiess » Mar 01 2012 1:35pm

etard wrote:Hey can you put your calipers around those tires? I'm wondering if the wider rim profile flattens out the tire face at all.
It looks like it does flatten it out a little compared to my front on a 20x1.75 BMX wheel, here are some pics I have a 16"x 2.75" ML75 on a standard 20x1.75 BMX wheel on the rear, sorry I don't have pics of the front. The 2.75" and 2.5" are pretty close in profile, not much difference. I wanted a more rounded sidewall for cornering grip. The 2.75" wide might be a better match for the wheel. I really like the way that rim looks, especially if you can fit a 3.0" tire on it.

Image
Image

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by MattyCiii » Mar 01 2012 4:23pm

Damn! That's one helluva rear swing arm extension!
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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Re: A-Line's Abound: Another A-Line build...

Post by MattyCiii » Mar 01 2012 4:35pm

Suspension:
I'm going to replace the rear shock's bushings with a needle bearing kit from Real World Cycling. First I have to press out the bushing:
Image

Don't need special tools to complete the task. Just some appropriately sized sockets, and a vice. The smaller socket presses against the bushing and bushing collar/spacer, and the large socket will be on the other side against the shock's shoulder.
Image

I'll swing by a friend's place this weekend and use his vice.
Image
Image

Here's what will be installed in its place:
Image
Image

Not a lot of work, but without a vice I can't move forward and install the shock.
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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