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Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: Apr 30 2008 1:29am
by Ben
1000w wrote:I am glad I found this forum, loads of knowledge and great sharing.
And heaps of Aussies 8)

Say, what current does the motor draw at top speed?

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: Apr 30 2008 3:55am
by 1000w
[quote="Ben"]Say, what current does the motor draw at top speed?

It spikes at over 50Amps if you give it a full handful while accelerating, but it is around 40 amps at top speed on the flat.
Cheers,
Matt.

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: Apr 30 2008 9:13am
by safe
1000w wrote:It spikes at over 50Amps if you give it a full handful while accelerating.
:arrow: That's 2400 watts.

Assuming 80% efficiency that's 1920 watts (2.56 hp) going out the chain and into the three speed rear hub. That's a lot of power... the only way I could calculate the torque is to know the specifics of gearing... but I suspect that you are putting something like 100 Nm of torque through that rear hub.

That's a strong argument for the strength of multispeed hubs and gives me some comfort that my 8 Speed Sturmey Archer hub will perform well. :)

$121.99


Image

http://aebike.com/page.cfm?action=detai ... SKU=HU2206

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: Apr 30 2008 11:55am
by Dr. Shock
I had a 7 gear SRAM hub on my chain drive setup for a while, and it didn't seem to like having that much power going through it. It started slipping and shifting spontaneously. I probably had it misadjusted, but I do think there's a big difference between a 3 speed hub and an 8 speed. The 3 speed has a bigger contact area on the gears. I suspect that a wide ratio three speed would be the way to go with a chain drive. You don't need that many gear steps with a motor. But nothing beats a test for information.

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 01 2008 2:46am
by 1000w
Dr. Shock wrote: I suspect that a wide ratio three speed would be the way to go with a chain drive. You don't need that many gear steps with a motor. But nothing beats a test for information.
I tend to agree.
I find that I start off in 1st, hold it briefly, then go straight to 3rd.
2nd can be handy up hills when 3rd is a little too high and 1st is too low. Selecting 2nd up hills keeps the pace up and the amps down.
All in all I find the three speed very versitile with a motor. Incredable takeoff will more than enough top end.
In 1st, I had the back tyre smoking on a bitumin road that was slightly sandy, with me standing holding the handle bars.
Cheers,
Matt.

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 01 2008 7:14am
by safe
1000w wrote:
Dr. Shock wrote:You don't need that many gear steps with a motor.
I tend to agree.
It all depends on your power to weight ratio. If you use a "monster motor" then you need less in the form of gears. As you go DOWN in power you need to go UP in gears in order to achieve the same effect. If you amplify things with a "peaky" powerband by restricting power into the top end (using a controller with an "armature current limiting" program helps) then you can make a small motor behave like a large motor.

The ideas are the same with sporty cars... something like a Mustang 5.0L has so much power that you really only need a few gears and you can use just about any of them all the time. Something like a "peaky" small engined Japanese sports car needs to be screamed in the right gear to get power. So I'm going after the smaller motor, low peak amps, high rpm, multiple gear approach.

All the same reasons that the big motor drains the battery too fast apply to the small motor and gears concept. That and the fact that I'm trying to develop a bike that will one day be possible to be sold legally and then modified. (there's a 750 watt limit on horsepower in the US)

I'm on a strange mission... :D

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 01 2008 9:17am
by 1000w
safe wrote:
1000w wrote:
Dr. Shock wrote:You don't need that many gear steps with a motor.
I tend to agree.
It all depends on your power to weight ratio. If you use a "monster motor" then you need less in the form of gears.
:D
I hear you.
1000w/3 gears works well for me.
I just love over powered machines.
Here in Western Australia the legal limit is an unreasonable, IMO, 200w.
Cheers,
Matt.

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 01 2008 2:46pm
by pwbset
Hi 1000w. That's a great ride you've got there. If you get the chance could you do some steep hill testing and post results? I'm trying to cobble together an ebike that will do 8-10% grade for 8-9km realiably for a daily commute. Thinking geared chain drive might be better than a hub motor (cheaper?)... still too new to all this to know any better though. Until now I've been researching 530x type stuff, but you're setup looks really sweet! :mrgreen:

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 01 2008 3:24pm
by Miles
The other factor to take into account, when deciding the number of gears you need, is the speed range you want, of course...

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 06 2008 5:43am
by AussieJester
Excellent job there 1000watt if i may suggest one very small change (purely cosmetic) Shorten the height of the sissy bar, i photochopped your original pic to show you how it could look-->

Image

I have been lurking about this forum and chopperbicycle.net forum for the past few months as i research and collect information for my own e-trike (im a paraplegic so it must be a trike ;-) ) That brings me to a couple of measurements you could possibly help me with if you would be so kind... I would like to know the diameter and length of the 1000watt motor your using (i intend to use the same unit) and also the batteries length/width and height please? I will eventually go the lipo route but due to cost the ol golf cart batteries will be first in line for time being. OH!... the diameter of the 20inch wheel including tire would also be extremely helpful also Im guessing around 22-23 inches?
This will enable me to get the measurements of my frame organized as I wont be purchasing the motor and/or batteries for a month or two (im on a tight budget im afraid, disability pension doesn't pay alot LoL) I have just purchased a mig welder and well be buying tubing in a few days time, once i get started i will start a thread/worklog detailing my progress as my e-trike chopper comes to 'life'

Thanks in advance mate and again top effort ;-)

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 07 2008 8:41am
by 1000w
Hi there Aussie Jester, thanks for your photochop, I like your change. It's uncanny, I have currently got the sissybar off and I am converting it to a suspension set up and was I considering lowering it. I will post photos.
The motor is 135mm dia and 200mm total length including the shaft.
The batteries are 180mm H x 167mm W x 76mm T.
The wheel and tyre are 500mm dia total.
Let me know if you need any other info.
I look forward to the worklog.
Cheers,
Matt.

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 07 2008 8:50pm
by AussieJester
Thankyou VERY much 1000watt your a champ much appreciate you taking the time to get the measurements :-) Suspension will be a HUGE improvement, best of luck with getting that together, did a fair bit of head scratching when designing the trike frame as far as the rear suspension went i give you the tip LoL...sorted now...i think, looks good on paper anywayz. Shall be starting the worklog in coming week i hope, still waiting for my newly purchased mig to be delivered..any day now :-)

Thanks Again :-)

EDIT: OMG I just noticed your location your in Western Australia !!!! SO AM I!!!! what a small world...Im up in Lesmurdie myself hence my decison for the larger motor very hilly up here lol Have you had any un-wanted attention from the local Police yet mate? If so what was the outcome? I'm hoping if I get 'pulled over' (i intend only riding on the footpaths) that the local cop wont know the difference between a 1000watt and a 200watt motor hehe Ill tellz them i pulled it from an electric wheelchair or mobility scooter i thinkz, I wonder what size motors they do take? Maybe i could get away with my trike being a 'mobility scooter' like the ol grannys get around on up here (we have ~8 retirement homes up here in the hills)

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 07 2008 9:32pm
by karma
yes thats a sweet ride. im trying to picture it with a Chrome custom springer front end. and mini ape bars. :wink:

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 07 2008 10:56pm
by AussieJester
karma wrote:yes thats a sweet ride. im trying to picture it with a Chrome custom springer front end. and mini ape bars. :wink:
Image

I downloaded the plans for a set of springer forks myself for the trike, I'm now swaying back and forth between these and set of extended mountain bike shock forks (not sure how they would handle a 45 degree rake though?) ... Either though would look the goods on 1000watts sweet cruiser imo

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 08 2008 12:07am
by 1000w
Aussie Jester, it is a small world, I can see why you want a big motor, Lesmurdie is a very hilly area. I would love to see a ebike get up Kalamunda hill.
I haven't had any un-wanted attention from the local Police yet, fingers crossed.
karma, I like the idea of a Chrome custom springer front end and I have been eyeing off the ones Aussie Jester posted a picture of for a while.
When the funds are available it may happen. I am doing disc brakes and ping batt first.
Cheers,
Matt.

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 08 2008 1:48am
by AussieJester
1000w wrote:Aussie Jester, it is a small world, I can see why you want a big motor, Lesmurdie is a very hilly area. I would love to see a ebike get up Kalamunda hill.
I haven't had any un-wanted attention from the local Police yet, fingers crossed.
karma, I like the idea of a Chrome custom springer front end and I have been eyeing off the ones Aussie Jester posted a picture of for a while.
When the funds are available it may happen. I am doing disc brakes and ping batt first.
Cheers,
Matt.
HAHA yes it is indeed hilly up here, Kalamunda rd Gooseberry hill, Lesmurdie or Crystal brook rd which ever one you take to get up here they re all bloody steep LoL I hadn't intended to take my future e-trike off the hill myself I want it for trips to local shops and from lesmurdie to Kalamunda trips mainly. I also will incorporate pedals to exercise my legs (i mentioned i was a paraplegic in intial post...in fact im classified as incomplete-para and have leg movement from knees up albeit very weak, i thought cycling might strengthen what working muscles i do have as well as helping with the daily painful spasms associated with spinal trauma) Ubfortunately i think a trike with 4inch back rims and a 45 degree rake might attract a lil attention even if its just out of curiosity LoL Pretty confident i'll talk my way around it though ::fingers crossed::

I did also wish to ask was there a great delay from http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm when you ordered your motor and controller? Always a lil wary of dealing with asian suppliers online have seen and heard of some shonky dealings particularly with China :-S

Did you catch the link i posted above to the springer fork page 1000 watt? Has details on building them will cost ~50 bucks i estimate welcome to use my newly acquired mig welder (when its here) to weld them up if you want to make the trek to my home workshop :-)

EDIT: One last thing :-S would you or any other members be able to tell me if it is possible to replace a 3 speed hub axle with a custom (basically extended axle) Would be much simpler for my intended drive train setup if this was possible, and how did you attach the rear sprocket to the 3 speed hub? Was it a case of fastening it to the original or have you simply modified it to slip onto the hub ala like the original does?

Thanks in advance for any help appreciate the time :-)

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 08 2008 9:53am
by 1000w
AussieJester wrote:I did also wish to ask was there a great delay from http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm when you ordered your motor and controller? Always a lil wary of dealing with asian suppliers online have seen and heard of some shonky dealings particularly with China :-S
I had no probs with Cyclone. The only hold up was with customs. They decided it looked expensive and maybe some duty was due, ie anything over $1000AU duty has to be payed. I had to go out in person to the postal depot near the international airport with a paypal receipt proving it was under $1000 and then I could take it home.
Thankyou for the mig welder offer, I have got one myself though. I looked at those plans with interest, and may go that way. The only thing is that they look very heavy.
I'm not sure about the 3 speed axle as I haven't opened one up yet.
I attached the rear sprocket to the 3 speed hub by grinding the original sprocket down to fit inside the bigger sprocket then just welded them together.
Cheers,
Matt.

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 08 2008 7:46pm
by AussieJester
1000w wrote:
AussieJester wrote: The only thing is that they look very heavy.
Good point hadnt given that much thought TBH the "cool" factor sort of clouded the judgment there me thinkz hehe Maybe i should consider reducing the rake of the head tube on this frame i designed from 45 degrees and have another think about acquiring some mountain bike forks :-S Cheers for the additional info anywayz bud...look forward to seeing the updates on your ride :-)

Ciao for now

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 11 2008 7:36am
by 1000w
The reduced hight sissybar with suspension added. The ride is much better now.
Cheers,
Matt.
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Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 11 2008 8:58pm
by AussieJester
Very nice mate :-) Much better on the kidneys i would imagine... Looks like a pair of front forks were used? By the look of the wheel on the grinder you been doing a fair whack of aluminum polishing to?

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 11 2008 10:38pm
by 1000w
AussieJester wrote:Looks like a pair of front forks were used?
Yes, forks off a 20" kids huffy mountain bike that I picked up for $10 at a garage sale.
The ride is much better, the shocks have taken away the sharp bumps. I like to have my tyres nice and hard for efficiency, so it was a really rough ride before.
AussieJester wrote:By the look of the wheel on the grinder you been doing a fair whack of aluminum polishing to?
I like working with ally, I make brackets and assorted bits a pieces. I wish I could justify the different cylinder of shielding gas, roll of wire and hand piece liner for my mig welder. All that cost too much for the amount of ally welding I would do in a year.
Cheers,
Matt.

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 11 2008 11:36pm
by AussieJester
1000w wrote: I like working with ally
Yeah it is nice to work with, I also use a fair whack of ali along with perspex, I have been quite heavily involved in PC case modding for many years now, my latest creation is all ali with custom perspex work-->

Image

Image

( in its unpainted state )

Would reeeeally like to build an ali frame to but as you have already stated the cost of the gas bottle rental etc just isn't worth it for the minimal yearly use it would see :-S

Have you any future 'improvement' in mind for your cruiser (aside of course for the lipo batteries)

EDIT: I also wanted to ask what size tubing you have used for the top tube ie. -->

Image

And would you hapen to know the wall thickness?

Cheers

Kim

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 12 2008 12:10am
by Dee Jay
I was more into hub motors until recently. 1000w, motor-wise, I think I may have subconsciously been influenced by your build, amongst others.

At first I was looking through some RC motors but they run too high unless you build a gearbox for them, so I ended up at the Cyclone website. For the past several days, I've been drooling at that same 48v 1000w motor at the Cyclone website (with the laptop speakers muted, of course :wink:) so I'm glad that you're sharing your experience with this motor on a 20" wheel as I'm about to do the same with my Giant Revive.

Originally, I was going to install a 650w motor on my wife's Revive but decided on 1000w on my bike and she gets my Crystalyte 4011 which should be enough speed for her. Hell, I think a 650w would be way too much for her anyway...

The Cyclone controller is a bit too chunky for me though. I hope they scale it down one day.

As for the big rear sprocket, did that come with the Cyclone kit ( freewheeling crank sprocket?) If not where did you get it? How many teeth is it? I want to install it on the disc brake side of a hub. And how fast would I go on my 20" without internal gearing like yours?

The banana seats and sissy bars are hot btw...

EDIT: This motor is gearless, yes? It doesn't say on the website . . .

J

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 14 2008 8:49pm
by 1000w
Dee Jay and AussieJester, I will reply with details maybe Saturday. I am away at the moment.
Cheers,
Matt.

Re: Home made chain drive cruiser

Posted: May 15 2008 9:03am
by 1000w
AussieJester wrote:Yeah it is nice to work with, I also use a fair whack of ali along with perspex, I have been quite heavily involved in PC case modding for many years now, my latest creation is all ali with custom perspex work-->
Thats some serious looking PC stuff. Is that water cooling I see? Nice one!!
AussieJester wrote:Have you any future 'improvement' in mind for your cruiser (aside of course for the lipo batteries)
EDIT: I also wanted to ask what size tubing you have used for the top tube ie. -->
The top tube is 35mm OD, not sure of the thickness. I am looking at disc brakes and a custom pad on the sissybar.
Dee Jay wrote:The Cyclone controller is a bit too chunky for me though. I hope they scale it down one day.
There is a far bit of empty space inside the controller, maybe you could change the enclosure.
Dee Jay wrote:As for the big rear sprocket, did that come with the Cyclone kit ( freewheeling crank sprocket?) If not where did you get it? How many teeth is it? I want to install it on the disc brake side of a hub. And how fast would I go on my 20" without internal gearing like yours?

I started out using the 6t motor sprocket and the 44t sprocket that came with the kit, but bike chain going around that 6t sprocket was very noisey so I changed to a smaller chain that is half the pitch. The place that sells the chain also do cheap brushed motors upto 500watts, controllers, etc. Well worth a look.
http://secure.oatleyelectronics.com//index.php?cPath=53
Look in Motor Speed Controllers & Acc's, for the chain.
I am not sure if they have the small sprockets (11t) yet. They sometimes only have them with the motors, I got mine (11t) off a friend who had bought several motors.
The large sprocket is 80t, so the ratio is approx 7 to 1.
If you install on the left side you need to source a freewheeling rachet that works in the oposite direction than usual. I don't know where to get them, but I have seen them on Curry powered bikes. Maybe try here, http://www.electricscooterparts.com/index.html
I highly recomend having a freewheeling drive system.
I will test the top speed with the bike in 2nd gear as this is 1to1 in the geared hub and let you know.
Dee Jay wrote:EDIT: This motor is gearless, yes? It doesn't say on the website
The 1000w cyclone is gearless.
Cheers,
Matt.