"Da bomb" cargo bike + Transmag 3kW / MAC 2kW / HS3548

Show off your E-bike creation here.
Post Reply
User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14196
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

"Da bomb" cargo bike + Transmag 3kW / MAC 2kW / HS3548

Post by neptronix » Jun 01 2012 12:50am

( this is a continuation of the m.e.n.s club thread here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 28&t=39299, and the discussion of the 2kW MAC, here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 30&t=40166

Well, i am moving off to Utah soon, near the bonneville salt flats, and i think in the spirit of moving to the area, i will do a high power build capable of stupid speeds :mrgreen:

I have been researching the ins and outs of chain drive for for weeks. I now know why people stick to hubs for the most part! To an electronics / computer guy, the mechanicals of a chain/belt driven system are rather intimidating. But i am determined to figure this out no matter how stupid i make myself look in the process :lol:

After many awkward conversations with motorcycle shops, scooter shops, bearing/industrial supply shops, motor manufacturers, atv shops, reading ES and motoredbikes.com, i have a plan.

Image

Idea goes like this.. motenergy 4201 50rpm/v axial flux motor, jammed in the rear triangle of a steel bike.. plus a xtracycle to act as a battery platform / extended rear to prevent wheelies and increase traction.. may need to be modified to fit the motor - not sure yet.

I will use an infineon controller if it will work - i like the value per dollar, familiarity, and programmability of those controllers. A 36FET on matched 4110's and thick copper rails will be the minimum to deliver the power needed to max this motor out at decently long ~20kW peaks. ( 250A x ~78v ). I've been told that a pulsed DC controller will make for a noisy ride... i say.. perfect, let it scream like a banshee! and if i get busted on the street i will just put the drivetrain in a scooter or dirt bike chassis. :twisted:

Unlike my pike's peak climber thread, this shouldn't drag on too long. I already have the motenergy motor ordered, i got a 2kW MAC i can play around with in this configuration until i get a 36FET controller going, i got the xtracycle ordered, i have the sprockets and chain ordered, 6 and 8 gauge copper wiring already purchased, etc :)

Only a few things need figuring..

1) Custom extended length pannier/bucket system.. this will be hardware store-d together and i am not sure how i'm going to do it.
2) Motor mounting and xtracycle addon modification to fit motor - this may require forking over some $ to a fabricator. The MAC will surely be hardware store-d together, but the 4201 will certainly have proper mounting.
3) Bicycle wheels are probably going to break in short order under this power, so i'm going to have to figure out WTF to do about that - maybe upgrade to motorcycle bits.
4) Brakes.. 203mm's are nice but i bet they will become abstract art pieces pretty quick stopping from >60mph.

Gotta catch that grin again.. :mrgreen:
Last edited by neptronix on Nov 23 2012 10:07pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

User avatar
drewjet   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 821
Joined: Jan 23 2008 4:34am
Location: Orlando, FL USA

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by drewjet » Jun 01 2012 4:32am

I think you will find that the extra cycle to not have the rigidity you need for the power you want to put through it. You need a custom frome, something like this.
Racebike.jpg
Racebike.jpg (95.32 KiB) Viewed 21592 times

Tench   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1033
Joined: Jul 13 2010 12:48pm
Location: Derby UK

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by Tench » Jun 01 2012 7:25am

Hi Nep, that is not far off the solution i have in mind, i too had decided that due to motor dimensions a jack shaft was needed.
If a direct drive was used (which it could be with the low Kv) the motor hung out the other side of the bike to far, using an intermediate shaft allows the offset of the motor to be centralised and also allows the chain positioning and alignment to be chosen rather than dictated by the motors dimensions. I am going to go for a twin chain drive both on the right side to an XRD hub with an extended threaded section with extra wheel bearings in it so i can fit 2 screw on freewheels, these hubs have large spoke flange dia which builds a stronger wheel. Due to the lower motor speed compared to RC setups it will be ok to stick with a chain for the primary drive as the width of a belt would be undesireable. My primary will be on the left side with the motor running CCW.

I am still writing a parts list, sourcing components and solving all of the design issues to finalise the design, when it has been planned right through to the end down to the last detail i will start spending money. I have to get it right before i start as i will be building several at the same time, a friend of mine who has an engineering co wants one of them, thats all my machining for free then! :D

What controller have you decided on? for simplicity i have decided to drop my voltage from 14 to 12s (a lot less wiring) with 8 x 8ah 6s Zippies in 2s4p.
Project one http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... ilit=tench
Project Two http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=37489
The uk's first Stealth Bomber

There is a box inside your head, inside amongst others are the words "Wont fit" stop looking for answers in the box, there are no answers only excuses.

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14196
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by neptronix » Jun 01 2012 1:13pm

Drew: we will see. I've heard very mixed things about the xtracycle. I'm thinking of using the vbrakes as additional bracing against side-side flex - link up the vbrakes of both 'frames' into a strong square shape. There are probably some other ideas i haven't thought of either. There may be some welding involved as well. I think if i can get a strong enough frame to start out with, and add additional bracing, i'll be OK.

I hope you are not right :D


Tench: XPD hub, huh? that's interesting. I have my doubts that any bicycle grade freewheel will tolerate this level of power ( even a white industries FW ), so i am just going to skip the idea of freewheeling altogether. Not like i'd want to pedal this bike without power anyway. I am still trying to figure out the wheel / hub part of the equation.

I do plan on starting out with a 4110 36FET infineon controller. I want to run 72V to max out the motor's capabilities, hence the 6:1 gearing, but i will start out with 3:1 and 12S/30AH of 15C zippy, it will be geared to do 40-42mph and have super high torque.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

Tench   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1033
Joined: Jul 13 2010 12:48pm
Location: Derby UK

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by Tench » Jun 02 2012 10:41am

I hear what your saying about the freewheel and torque, it had crossed my mind to put the freewheel on the motor, more rpm,s = less torque. lets say the reduction is 4:1, then the torque at the motor would be 1/4 of the torque at the wheel, this would be a similar amount my present bike has at the back wheel which is running a hope cassette hub with no problems so far, or is my logic way off?
Project one http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... ilit=tench
Project Two http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=37489
The uk's first Stealth Bomber

There is a box inside your head, inside amongst others are the words "Wont fit" stop looking for answers in the box, there are no answers only excuses.

User avatar
drewjet   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 821
Joined: Jan 23 2008 4:34am
Location: Orlando, FL USA

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by drewjet » Jun 02 2012 10:48am

For a freewheel I breifly considered a gokart racing clutch on the motor. In the end I went without. It is a bear to peddal, without the motor, I can't get it much over 12 MPH. But I don't do that very often!

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14196
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by neptronix » Jun 05 2012 1:02am

I'm not sure about that tench... but later on i plan on doing a 1000W mid-drive and will experiment with various bike grade freewheels as jackshafts..

Don't think i'd want to pedal a 70-100lb cargo bike ( before actually carrying anything of note ) so i'm forgetting the clutch idea! :lol:

Am currently digging the idea of a 20" wheeled long BMX, after i found some pics of the "F1 BMX" style bikes from the.. 80's?

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=40442

Image

Imagine if we could get our hands on a frame like this today.. you could run 20" and have normal geometry.. no worries about wheelies ( like with regular BMXes ), none of the stability/flexing issues of folding bikes.. just perfect.

I think i am going to go the small wheel route now that i have seen these cool F1 rides. I believe that i may be able to angle the xtracycle attatchment downward some for rear lift.. 20" with fat tire in the back, 24" in front.

Image

I just got this eTek mount in the mail ( thank you robotmarketplace!! ). It is stinking huge. The reality of what i'm getting myself into is starting to hit me. Holy shit. I AM crazy
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

User avatar
voicecoils   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sep 16 2007 6:31am
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by voicecoils » Jun 05 2012 2:02am

nep you want a yuba.

carries 200kg + the rider

super strong steel frame

plenty of room for all your motors and jackshit. has a disk tab.

cheap (comparatively)

throw on 20" wheels and 1" long crank arms if you must.

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14196
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by neptronix » Jun 05 2012 2:07am

I rode a Yuba and loved it. Girlfriend will eventually get one. I wanted the xtracycle because i can actually adjust the geometry. Oh, and it was only $245.

A Yuba really might be better but i don't need the cargo capacity so much here, just basically an extended swingarm with some battery carrying capacity on it.

I can also change out my frame... that's a big plus to me.

We'll see how it goes.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14196
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by neptronix » Jun 05 2012 12:25pm

AAAAHHHHH.... now looking at some really cool ES builds, i am suddenly questioning why i ordered an xtracycle in the first place.

I might literally put it up for sale and roll my own.
Should have done more research before i ordered - but i got free shipping so selling it off won't be much of a hit to the wallet :)

Image

^--- here's spinningmagnet's long tail with dual suspension. The bottom bracket is used as an axle / pivoting point using this idea..

Image

Brilliant.. just brilliant!!

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... f=1&t=9673

I'd like to do this.. except, i'd want to use the vbrake area as a mounting point.
Add a long shock to get me rear lift..
Then add a rear rack with panniers on it, to cover the motor up, and to carry extra batteries ( unlike on a regular bike, the weight would be more in the middle. Even though the weight will be up high still, it should affect handling less adversely.

The big advantage over the xtracycle idea is that i can get better rear lift for using a 20" wheel in the back and 24" in the front, i have the full rear triangle to use for motor + jackshaft stuff, and dual suspension - which will be invaluable at the stupid speeds i plan on doing.

Oh yeah - it's all coming together now :mrgreen:
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14196
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by neptronix » Jun 05 2012 1:02pm

Killabicycle jr, design rev 2:

Image

I like this idea WAY more than the xtracycle idea now that i look at it.. the big heavy motor has a nice secure place to sit, and the panniers give me a no-fabrication-needed way to hide the motor.

The only issue this introduces is that i will need idler pulleys on the bike chain and motor chain.

I will use a 20" or 24" kids bike steel rear end if it will fit large tires. This should give me a shorter wheelbase than the xtracycle, which is good.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

auraslip   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3535
Joined: Mar 05 2010 5:19pm

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by auraslip » Jun 05 2012 1:19pm

It's funny cause you don't want to order a cromotor cause of the cost, but by the time you're done building this you'll be $3k in the hole. I'm not kidding. Keep a spreadsheet going. Very scary how much money slips through your fingers when your not sure what you're doing ;)
THANKS TO EVERYONE HERE WHO TAUGHT ME ABOUT EBIKES. I'M IN YOUR DEBT.

I sell Ebike Brake levers and throttles with custom connectors crimped on! $10 shipped!

ES facebook group

r/ebikes ebikes on reddit

Tench   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1033
Joined: Jul 13 2010 12:48pm
Location: Derby UK

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by Tench » Jun 05 2012 1:27pm

neptronix wrote:Killabicycle jr, design rev 2:



The only issue this introduces is that i will need idler pulleys on the bike chain and motor chain.
not if you combine the swingarm pivot and your jack shaft? :D

The shock would be better supported at a frame junction rather than the centre of a tube, you are asking for a frame colapse doing it that way, or atleast brace it up somehow.

Looks like an easy solution to a full sus long tail/cargo multi purpose bike with all the grunt you will every need, in the words of Jean-luc Picard, Make it so! :D
Project one http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... ilit=tench
Project Two http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=37489
The uk's first Stealth Bomber

There is a box inside your head, inside amongst others are the words "Wont fit" stop looking for answers in the box, there are no answers only excuses.

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14196
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by neptronix » Jun 05 2012 1:46pm

auraslip wrote:It's funny cause you don't want to order a cromotor cause of the cost, but by the time you're done building this you'll be $3k in the hole. I'm not kidding. Keep a spreadsheet going. Very scary how much money slips through your fingers when your not sure what you're doing ;)
Ha, no way.

Cromotor + shipping + lacing up to wheel ends up being $595 + $30 + $100 = $725.
Then you get to make torque plates that can actually handle it's power... what's the cost of doing that?

Total: $725-$775?

Motenergy 4201motor: $430 shipped.
Water-cut aluminum mount: $60 shipped.
Rear 39t sprocket: $40 shipped.
Front 12t sprocket: $20 shipped.
10ft. #40 chain: $30 shipped.
Rear 20" disc BMX wheel: $50 shipped.
Custom mounts to frame: ??? Let's say $50..

Total: $670

I don't have to use the jackshaft ultimately, i could just go to a 4:1 on the rear 20" if it fit :). On 78v, that'd give me around 45mph with a bigass 20" wheel.

Not to knock on the cromotor or anything but my shit's gonna be cheaper and most likely more powerful! Also, i will be able to throw this motor in a motorcycle or scooter build later on..

Also, i can seal it from rain, unlike a hub motor. Cost is not the reason i am ditching hub motors... seeing rust on my stator and axles after a few rides in the rain is! I don't want to be restricted from riding in the rain anymore.

I'm done with hubs!
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

auraslip   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3535
Joined: Mar 05 2010 5:19pm

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by auraslip » Jun 05 2012 1:51pm

Lots you can do to prevent corrosion, but I suspect you have you mind set on doing this. That's ok. You seem to enjoy the building as much or maybe more than the riding. No shame in that ;)
Motenergy 4201motor: $430 shipped.
Water-cut aluminum mount: $60 shipped.
Rear 39t sprocket: $40 shipped.
Front 12t sprocket: $20 shipped.
10ft. #40 chain: $30 shipped.
Rear 20" disc BMX wheel: $50 shipped.
Custom mounts to frame: ??? Let's say $50..
IF you can find a machine shop willing to take up a job that small, they're gonna charge a lot more than $50. As I said, keep a log. You'll see what I mean. My last build crept up to $2k with all the tools and odds and ends I had to get, and It's actually a pretty moderate bike.

Then again, what's wrong with buying new tools and learning new things :D
THANKS TO EVERYONE HERE WHO TAUGHT ME ABOUT EBIKES. I'M IN YOUR DEBT.

I sell Ebike Brake levers and throttles with custom connectors crimped on! $10 shipped!

ES facebook group

r/ebikes ebikes on reddit

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14196
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by neptronix » Jun 05 2012 1:56pm

Tench wrote:The shock would be better supported at a frame junction rather than the centre of a tube, you are asking for a frame colapse doing it that way, or atleast brace it up somehow.

Looks like an easy solution to a full sus long tail/cargo multi purpose bike with all the grunt you will every need, in the words of Jean-luc Picard, Make it so! :D
That's why i was thinking of bolting it to the upper-center of the tube and the vbrake mounts. I end up making an additional triangle in the frame that way. I was thinking that it would distribute the force evenly between the seat tube and upper rear tube, distributing the load evenly, as if the bike literally was designed that way. Does that make sense or is there still a flaw i am not getting? ( i am not being sarcastic as this is my first foray into modding a bike frame like this )

I guess the only problem is that i am mounting the shock to the rearest point rather than in the center of this additional triangle i am making. But maybe it will be fine?

I also in this instance would be bracing the vbrake mounts horizontally with a bar going between them, to distribute the load between them equally. This makes the upper part of the frame even stronger than it normally would be.

If i could weld a mount also on the bottom between the lower chain stays ( partially to support the motor ), that would be even stronger than stock as well.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14196
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by neptronix » Jun 05 2012 2:57pm

I've read everyone's attempts at waterproofing a hub motor and have never seen anyone say 'yes, i figured it out!', even Justin at ebikes.ca, after a very long talk about it, concluded... 'well, cutting holes in it probably works, i think it worked for one person'. People that are doing water cooling haven't even figured out how to fully seal their motors yet..

I do a lot more building than riding, that is for sure. The salted roads during winter and the downpours during winter and spring keep me in the car... i'm tired of that, i want something that is good for all season riding with no worries.
I also want the longtail/cargo bit for jamming more batteries on.

I don't need a machine shop. Just someone who is willing to weld some crap together, really. I will be using a steel frame for this endevour, mainly for strength. It can be ugly because the panniers will hide things. I could even hardware-store this kinda thing together.

I don't think i'll spend more than a few hundred $ on the frame stuff. In fact, if Utah works out we are buying a place and i am learning how to weld. I can get my hands on a wal-mart steel NEXT dual sus. bike for about $10-$20.. cut that apart.. and weld up the bits and pieces.

Do you guys kinda get what i'm trying to build here? An eBike capable of traveling on 45mph roads that has a ludicrous range, can scale the tallest mountain passes, can tolerate bad weather, and awful terrain.

I'm tired of hearing about how fragile dual suspension aluminum mountain bikes are. How easily a hub motor can rust out in a year in a rainy climate. I want bomb proof. Easy OEM bolt it together solutions are no longer appealing. The more i play with eBikes, the more i realize that something truly capable is gonna be a strange in between of a motorcycle and bike.. we are no longer in weight weenie country, toto :mrgreen:
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

Tench   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1033
Joined: Jul 13 2010 12:48pm
Location: Derby UK

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by Tench » Jun 05 2012 5:23pm

I know where your heading and what your trying to achieve Nep, this would be a good choice for the base bike :D

http://www.winstanleysbikes.co.uk/images/prod_37723.jpg
Project one http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... ilit=tench
Project Two http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=37489
The uk's first Stealth Bomber

There is a box inside your head, inside amongst others are the words "Wont fit" stop looking for answers in the box, there are no answers only excuses.

User avatar
jkbrigman   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 794
Joined: Oct 28 2011 12:34am
Location: North Carolina, Southeast US

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by jkbrigman » Jun 05 2012 5:32pm

neptronix wrote:
Do you guys kinda get what i'm trying to build here? An eBike capable of traveling on 45mph roads that has a ludicrous range, can scale the tallest mountain passes, can tolerate bad weather, and awful terrain.

I'm tired of hearing about how fragile dual suspension aluminum mountain bikes are. How easily a hub motor can rust out in a year in a rainy climate. I want bomb proof. Easy OEM bolt it together solutions are no longer appealing. The more i play with eBikes, the more i realize that something truly capable is gonna be a strange in between of a motorcycle and bike.. we are no longer in weight weenie country, toto :mrgreen:
I just got through telling Alan B that I am tired of "categories" - I want something between a bike and a moped or motorcycle. Yes, bomb-proof. Something you can get on, ride the crap out of it (pedaling and contributing useful thrust if you wish) and not have to THINK ABOUT THE DRIVE SYSTEM.

It doesn't have to make 50mph sustained (although being able to choose that would be cool). I'm thinking 35mph-ish with 40mph possible for getting away from intersections. (Please note that I'm likely gonna use a 2810 rear drive, so stay off my case - 40mph with that setup is like sitting down to tea and cookies with sasquatch - it just ain't happening...)

But always, always, being able to make a pedal contribution to the speed. I don't want a freaky, broke-ass motorcycle - I still want a useful bicycle with a reasonably lightweight drive system. YES - a strange in-between of a motorcycle and bike...I'll add that what the under-200lb crowd thinks of as a bike differs from what the above-200lb crowd thinks of as a bike, and that's OK. I'm NOT gonna put down my baby back ribs, OK? 8) 8) 8)

So, Nep, are we talking the same language here, something that's still pedal-able, or am I missing the point and you just want to lay 2-inch-wide rubber the length of the Bonneville salt flats?
Last edited by jkbrigman on Jun 05 2012 5:45pm, edited 3 times in total.
eRecumbent. 9C 2810, 6-FET,CA,18S3P LiPo, Kenda Kwest. 33mph max 12.8Wh/mi (22mph avg) Phat Bike Commuter HS3540, 6-FET, 18S3P LiPo, Schwalbe Marathon 47mph max 25 Wh/mi (28mph avg) Basic LiPo Charging Thread , Add Throttle to Multispeed Bike
dogman: "I bet if you just don't ride like a jerk, you can do whatever you want up to the speed where everybody looks at you like this. :shock: "
tomjasz: "Romans go full dork. They could give a hoot what 'Merkins do."

hydro-one   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 866
Joined: Dec 19 2008 2:02pm
Location: winipeg Canada

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by hydro-one » Jun 05 2012 5:35pm

Just buy a good used DH bike frame and be done with it!! Messing with a walmart bike is a complete waste of time IMO.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Seriously, that is what we need. think 8" travel, front and rear. I prefer SAnta Cruz :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Pro ebiker
28s hk lipo
3ooA kelly/cromotor 17"
sana cruz bullit

User avatar
jkbrigman   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 794
Joined: Oct 28 2011 12:34am
Location: North Carolina, Southeast US

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by jkbrigman » Jun 05 2012 5:40pm

hydro-one wrote:Just buy a good used DH bike frame and be done with it!! Messing with a walmart bike is a complete waste of time IMO.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Hey, hey...it's embarrassing enough to be a full-grown adult male hanging out in the bike section of the Wal-mart... :shock: :shock: :shock:

Seriously though, every time I hit craigslist, I have to put up with people thinking they should get 80% of what they paid for their precious bike just because they added some dorky CNC freewheel or a front fork with cROCK SHOX stickers. If you have any tips on where to find that bitchin $300 DH with the Fox forks, I'm all ears man.
Last edited by jkbrigman on Jun 05 2012 5:47pm, edited 1 time in total.
eRecumbent. 9C 2810, 6-FET,CA,18S3P LiPo, Kenda Kwest. 33mph max 12.8Wh/mi (22mph avg) Phat Bike Commuter HS3540, 6-FET, 18S3P LiPo, Schwalbe Marathon 47mph max 25 Wh/mi (28mph avg) Basic LiPo Charging Thread , Add Throttle to Multispeed Bike
dogman: "I bet if you just don't ride like a jerk, you can do whatever you want up to the speed where everybody looks at you like this. :shock: "
tomjasz: "Romans go full dork. They could give a hoot what 'Merkins do."

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14196
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by neptronix » Jun 05 2012 5:47pm

See, you get it brigman :)

Since i got my first taste of above pedal speeds - running the MAC motor on 57v - i always wanted something that could putz along at 20-25mph but alternately flow with traffic on most roads at 45mph, and never have problems with overheating etc.

With a 60T sprocket and 11t rear ( good luck fitting that on an 54xx or cromotor hubzilla! ) & 21" total diameter wheel, you can pedal up to about 35mph. Ultimately you could jackshaft the pedal power for 45mph pedaling, and still have gears!

Categories are for you to come up with. This forum is all about the people who are pushing the limit and trying new things.. people who think in rigid constructs and limitations of what a bicycle should be are just along for the ride.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14196
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by neptronix » Jun 05 2012 5:49pm

hydro-one wrote:Just buy a good used DH bike frame and be done with it!! Messing with a walmart bike is a complete waste of time IMO.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Seriously, that is what we need. think 8" travel, front and rear. I prefer SAnta Cruz :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Please draw me up a plan on where you can fit a 22lb 8" chain drive motor and 2-3kw-hr of batteries on a weight weenie aluminum frame and i may reconsider spending $1,500 on a bike platform rather than $150 :)

Oh, and you have to be able to hide the motor behind panniers.
Sketch it up, i'm all ears.. :lol:
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

auraslip   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3535
Joined: Mar 05 2010 5:19pm

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by auraslip » Jun 05 2012 6:12pm

I think pedaling at 25mph is about the max you want to pedal at. Over that you get more power from an aero tuck.

Going over 50mph is.... kinda useless. You can mingle with traffic fine on every road but a highway at 50mph. But you know what? The roads where you need to go that fast are the sort of roads where you'll attract lots of unwanted attention. Best to avoid those roads.

My latest 22s10ah HS3540 can do 50mph until that battery runs flat. But I hardly ever go that fast. Most of the time I'm at 25 mph. It doesn't make sense to risk getting busted or hit a huge wall of air unless I absolutely need too. And really, I think I could get by with a top speed 45mph or 40mph. I dunnu, I guess I'm turning into a torque over speed guy. No sense in playing the speed game since cars will always win.
and not have to THINK ABOUT THE DRIVE SYSTEM.
Show me a DIY non-hub drive with 10k miles and I'll change my tune :D
There is literally nothing about chain drives I think are reliable.
Unless you're some amazing engineer and you build the bike with reliability in mind.
Otherwise just about everyone here building chain drives spends 10X trying to get it to work for every 1X riding. Most of them never get it working quite right and move on.

I see what your dream is david, and I think it's a great one. Unlimited range, and perfect reliability.
THANKS TO EVERYONE HERE WHO TAUGHT ME ABOUT EBIKES. I'M IN YOUR DEBT.

I sell Ebike Brake levers and throttles with custom connectors crimped on! $10 shipped!

ES facebook group

r/ebikes ebikes on reddit

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14196
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: "Killabicycle Jr." - longtail + motenergy 4201

Post by neptronix » Jun 05 2012 6:22pm

Time for some motor porn!

Image

I approve of this motor's girth. I'd give it two thumbs up but the other hand is holding the camera.

Image

Another glory shot.

Image

Nice, the phases are labeled A B C

Image

Temp sensor

Image

Wowl, look at these terminals. We have officially exited bicycle motor territory :twisted: They are also labeled A B C. I wish our hub motors were labeled as such, so that we didn't have to play musical chairs to find the phase - hall combination.

Image

Cooling fan out back.

Image

A motor centipede? here is the 2kW MAC in comparison.

Image

WOW. That's a better rear triangle fit than i thought i'd get out of this. The vbrake-braced addl. swingarm would actually clear the motor in a 26" frame. Note, this is not the frame i am going to be using. Shaved the vbrake bosses off this frame for the peak power build to just baaaaarely squeeze a 16x2.75 motorcycle tire back there..

Image

It looks like my idea of hiding the motor behind panniers will work. I just need a pannier setup that is a bit on the wide side.


Hell yeah. This is coming together nicely so far.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

Post Reply