Experimental Cargo Ebike Trip, Vancouver to SF Maker Faire

Show off your E-bike creation here.
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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by Stevil_Knevil » May 14 2013 2:23am

Image
=10,000+ words..

..you guys are re-writing, "Zen, and the Art of Motorcycle (eBike) Maintenance" here.. 8)
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batteries

Post by Jason27 » May 14 2013 7:35am

Its nice to see justin le just confirm what I've been saying for months and months about allcell. You will pay more for allcell battery packs compared to the mass produced packs in china but the quality of allcell packs is far better.

Dogman are you taking notes? Lol
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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by melodious » May 14 2013 8:37am

Out of all the things Justin's progression has moved to, changing the battery chemistry threw me for a loop :P . I'd always figured he stay with the Ezee NiMH. I'm wondering if those allcells will eventually work themselves into cases that are compatable with those handy dandy battery holders :?:
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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by el_walto » May 14 2013 11:42am

melodious wrote:Out of all the things Justin's progression has moved to, changing the battery chemistry threw me for a loop :P . I'd always figured he stay with the Ezee NiMH. I'm wondering if those allcells will eventually work themselves into cases that are compatable with those handy dandy battery holders :?:
The Ezee Battery they sell uses Samsung LiMn, not NiMH.

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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by cal3thousand » May 14 2013 12:37pm

I've been waiting for someone to come out with a solid charger that can be used in the field, but this one is more than we could have hoped for. 60V/360W is plenty fine for everyday use and will go very far with helping e-bikes become mainstream.

I agree with what spinningmagnets said that consumers want an appliance that is care-free and these are the types of innovations that will lead us there. And with the others, I have already begun preparing my future budget to accomodate these.

I have a feeling this next year is going to be a fun one :D

This thread is full of so much awesome win. Keep it up Justin!
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Re: Batteries

Post by Mark@Renaissance » May 14 2013 1:05pm

justin_le wrote:The extra inertia on the front wheel completely eliminated the low speed front wheel wobbles that were present with the pack on the frame, and it gives some feeling of tank like stability to the whole affair. Hands free riding was certainly not in the cards in the original layout.
I told you the riding is good with weight low down up front! I would say more like a train than a tank though.

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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by Kiwi » May 14 2013 5:25pm

Hi Justin.

Great work on your new products. Keen to represent down under when they are ready.
I thought I was doing some good development work, but now I feel like I am just playing in the sand pit.

Anyhow, enjoy your journey. Last year I did half the north island of New Zealand on my Yuba + 48v20ah.
Its a fantastic thing touring with electric. You can be cruising up a hill eating an apple, wearing a suit, listinging to music, totally relaxed. I was intending to do the south island at the start of the year but that fell through.

Working on a longjohn style bike with enclosed pod for my 2 boys so they can come too.

Enjoy!
E tour 1.jpg
e tour-2.jpg
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Tales from the Trip, Bellingham->Seattle

Post by justin_le » May 14 2013 8:48pm

Well I meant to post all the bike build details before the trip, and then talk about the actual journey in realtime while we were on it. Like so many things the timeline gets skewed by realities, but I'll try to get caught up on that detail today. We're only 1 day from San Francisco now, charging up at a frozen yoghurt joint in Willits California, having clocked just over 1500km through almost flawless weather and with the help of many friends (old and new) along the way.

We stopped at a small gas station on the first stretch between bellingham and Seattle for drinks and a small break, and just as we were leaving a horde of muddy dowhnhill mountainbikers swarmed the station too. One of them looked at me and said "hey, I recognize you, from Calgary or something right?", I had a perplexed look, "like 4 years ago you were riding a funny stretched bike bike with a seat and were fixing batteries". I be damned, 5 years ago he was on a mountain bike trip in Banff, AB, while I was riding across Canada on that first ebike adventure, and now on my 2nd distance ebike tour we cross paths at random again in the forests of Washington State. This is mike:
Mike, 5 years later.jpg
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He may have been one of the onlookers in this photo I had at the lake louise parking lot:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 827#p87827

Anyways, that felt like an auspicious start. We didn't quite have enough juice to roll into Seattle from Bellingham on one charge, and are very grateful to Ken who gave us a place to stay in Shoreline. There are some great separated north-south bike paths that go almost all the way through above and below Seattle which he helped us navigate too.

We were met in Seattle proper by Henry who runs Liontail Cycles, and Haulin Colin who has a shared metal shop space and builds custom bike trailers, front racks, kickstands, and other stuff:
Seattle Crew.jpg
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The blue trailer in this picture is actually a project that they are both working on to be a mobile shop for Henry to use for his Liontail cycle business. The central groove is designed to tow a bike or ebike right to the customer, and the rest of the space will be filled out with all the equipment required for service and install operations.

The timing was good too because we realized the rigs needed some tweaking and Colin's shop was just the place to do that. Robbie's bike had a regular side kickstand that was just on the verge of snapping with all of the load we were carrying, and Colin happens to manufacture the most stable double-kickstand for cargo bikes out there, the Rolling Jackass, originally designed for Big Dummy frames but which installed on the Edgerunner with no issues:
Haulin Colin Instaulin.jpg
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The stand is an awesome and basically essential upgrade. The wide flat feet don't sink into soft ground like the legs of the Xtracycle Kickback stand, and the feet are spread further apart too so it holds the loaded bike stable on uneven terrain well, and is a godsend when you need to do bike repairs like fix a rear flat tire as happened last night.

We experimented with other tweaks to get the cargo load lower down, some more successful than others. Here's Henry installing the front carrier rack we had just bought on my bike, which then allowed the front batteries to sit lower down:
Front Rack Install.jpg
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And no 2am workshift in a metal shop would have been complete without some power skateboard trips to the nearest bar for eats, drinks, and endless ebike talk:
Fetching Drinks.jpg
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Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by justin_le » May 14 2013 9:13pm

Kiwi wrote: I thought I was doing some good development work, but now I feel like I am just playing in the sand pit.
Nah, everything good starts off small. Just keep playing and your sand pit will eventually grow into a fortress.
Anyhow, enjoy your journey. Last year I did half the north island of New Zealand on my Yuba + 48v20ah.
Its a fantastic thing touring with electric. You can be cruising up a hill eating an apple, wearing a suit, listinging to music, totally relaxed. I was intending to do the south island at the start of the year but that fell through.
+1 on the music. I haven't posted about that detail yet but we got some nice speakers put on Robbie's bike in Corvalis. It's good for him at all speeds, but for me at the 25mph we've been cruising I need to be pretty close to not have it washed out by the general windflow. At 15-20mph though, it works way better.

I'm definitely going to do an ebike tour of Au/NZ at somepoint, hopefully before the end of the decade, and will look forwards to hooking up then. -Justin
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by amberwolf » May 15 2013 8:24am

I wish you were passing thru Phoenix on your return trip--it would be awesome to meet up with you. :) But I suspect you would melt on your way out here, as unexpectedly hot as it has been last few days, and I don't know that there are enough places to charge along the way. :(

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Tales from the Trip, Seattle -> Portland

Post by justin_le » May 15 2013 1:08pm

treefarmer wrote: It was a record for me--180 miles on 2.5 charges in 24 hours. I wish I would have taken more pictures. Thanks so much Robbie and Justin--and Wake.
That's got to be more than just a personal record Will, I think 180 miles in 24 hours has to be close to the top of what anyone has done in a day on a pedal ebike!

For the record, Will has a regular commute 3 days a week of 38 miles each way. 3 years ago he rented an electric bike from Wake at The eBikeStore to see if it would be up for the task, which proved itself, and he then converted his mountain bike over with an eZee kit, and 48V 30Ah total worth of Ping Batteries. His CA stats tell the story since then:
Will's CA Stats.jpg
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Very close to the 10,000 mile club without having met or ridden with another ebike rider the whole time.

His farm in the small town or Ethel was the perfect mid-point charging spot between Seattle and Portland, and made for a delightful stay. Other than the wood oven pizza, we also learned how to cut tall grass with a scythe!
Cutting Grass.jpg
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The batteries didn't charge up until midnight, so the ride from Ethel to Portland was a late night affair, but with 3 of us all having lumenator lights the road was well lit, traffic was nil, and adventures were in the making:
3am adventures with Will.jpg
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We had a nap break just shy of portland and didn't roll in till the following morning to Wake's place. Here are the 3 of us with wake dashing to beat the camera timer:
Arrival at Wakes.jpg
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Wake is an awesome guy who jumped right in the thick of it opening a dedicated full service electric bike store some 4-5 years ago, and even just to survive that long is a feat in itself. But his head is always racing with ideas and inventions and it always makes for an exciting stay. Plus, you have to respect anyone who has a TIG welder and milling machine within arms reach of the sales and checkout counter of his shop!
Wakes Shop.jpg
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With Wake's place as our homebase, we got a chance to spend some time in the cargo bike lala land of Portland, where like every 3rd vehicle we saw on the bike paths was a longtail, a bakfiet, a longjohn, etc. Our cargo rigs barely turned heads, just a lot of nods from likeminded folks.

The meetup with Clevercycles was important since this was the first time that Todd got to see and try out first hand the right side stokemonkey setup with proportional torque assist. We'd been working together on this project over email for well over a year, so it's good to finally go over things in person and discuss how to now get all the parts into production and all that stuff:
Dean and Todd.jpg
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We also got a chance to spend some time with the crew from Ecospeed. Several years ago we had dabbled a bit in the early ecospeed mountain drive kits, but this was the first time I got to test ride their latest incarnation with their in-house velociraptor controller, and what a ride experience that was. The thing is a rocket with 1400 watts of power regardless of your cadence. The velociraptor controller is natively a power controller, with throttle directly controlling the motor watts, so it handles partial throttles and varying pedal cadences seamlessly. I was impressed that they also have their own custom freewheeling cranksets manufactured in Portland too, to allow for perfect chain spacings with the additional motor chain sprocket. Here we are with Brad, Tad, Brent, and Tom:
Ecospeed Visit.jpg
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Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by liveforphysics » May 15 2013 1:19pm

I am loving following your trips adventures!

After Maker-Faire I will give you some adventures in Santa Cruz as well if you're down for it my friend. :-)
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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by justin_le » May 15 2013 4:47pm

amberwolf wrote: The catch with the latter part is that unless it periodically (frequently) cut motor power just long enough to check for continued torque input from the pedals, it would never stop applying more power until the vehicle was at a fast enough speed to relieve the torque on the system....
Yeah, I suppose there could be some clever work arounds like that. It gets a bit tricky though, and because of controller ramp rates, the time to power down and then repower the motor just to momentary sample the human torque would certainly be a noticeable blip that the rider would feel.
I wish you were passing thru Phoenix on your return trip--it would be awesome to meet up with you.
It's not completely out of question Amberwolf. Robbie is going to be taking the train back to Vancouver with his bike. But me I'm considering leaving my rig here in SF, with the anticipation that at some point in the next year or two I'll pick up again and start a cross america journey to the East Coast. That would have me going right through Phoenix. Unfortunately a little late most likely to pitch in and help with rebuilding your space, but I'm sure there will be lots of other stuff to do while there :-)
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by liveforphysics » May 15 2013 5:40pm

justin_le wrote: But me I'm considering leaving my rig here in SF, with the anticipation that at some point in the next year or two I'll pick up again and start a cross america journey to the East Coast.

I have a dry large volume storage area under my new place, and I'm in a 3 year lease. :-) If you want to leave a contraption here, I will happily hold whatever you like for as long as you need my friend.
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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by amberwolf » May 15 2013 10:41pm

justin_le wrote:It gets a bit tricky though, and because of controller ramp rates, the time to power down and then repower the motor just to momentary sample the human torque would certainly be a noticeable blip that the rider would feel.
i hadn'rt thought about that. :( need a faster processsor. :lol:

Unfortunately a little late most likely to pitch in and help with rebuilding your space, but I'm sure there will be lots of other stuff to do while there :-)
oh, i would not want to waste your valuable time with helping me rebuild or wahtever, but would definitley like to meet with you on your way thru if you do go thru here! maybe even have you try out crazybike2 if it still exists in anything like it's original form by then. :oops: see if you're braver than liveforphysics. :lol: :P

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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by Stevil_Knevil » May 16 2013 1:15am

I just got home from a really fun meeting with our intrepid duo in Sebastopol!

We hung out in the center of town plaza, where the city has conveniently installed a dual 3-prong outlet next to the gazebo for eThingy recharging. Beside meeting with the guys, the highlight for me was getting to do several laps of the plaza on Justin's electric longboard. WOW, did not think I would enjoy riding it as much as I did!!

Give it a kick to start the sensorless motors, then lean onto the front to go faster ..transfer weight to the rear to decelerate
:P
felt like a lucid dream..

Their machines are holding up well. After ~1000 miles, the only discernible wear on them was a little fluid weeping from one of the bearings of Robbie's oil-cooled front hub.

Some very interesting empirical evidence is being gathered.

Go Go, gadget eBikers!
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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by liveforphysics » May 16 2013 1:23am

Stevil_Knevil wrote:I just got home from a really fun meeting with our intrepid duo in Sebastopol!

We hung out in the center of town plaza, where the city has conveniently installed a dual 3-prong outlet next to the gazebo for eThingy recharging. Beside meeting with the guys, the highlight for me was getting to do several laps of the plaza on Justin's electric longboard. WOW, did not think I would enjoy riding it as much as I did!!

Give it a kick to start the sensorless motors, then lean onto the front to go faster ..transfer weight to the rear to decelerate
:P
felt like a lucid dream..

Their machines are holding up well. After ~1000 miles, the only discernible wear on them was a little fluid weeping from one of the bearings of Robbie's oil-cooled front hub.

Some very interesting empirical evidence is being gathered.

Go Go, gadget eBikers!

That is so killer my friend! I wish I was with you. Im frantically wiring up the tiny controller for my Maker Fair bike as I type this. :-)
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by Stevil_Knevil » May 16 2013 3:00am

Looking forward to whatever you bring buddy!

No pressure, but 8 kinds of Awesomeness are rolling your way :D
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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by nicobie » May 16 2013 1:06pm

Stevil_Knevil wrote:
No pressure, but 8 kinds of Awesomeness are rolling your way :D
:mrgreen:

me thinks Lukes thrives on time pressure...
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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by Hyena » May 16 2013 6:47pm

Oh man, what bad timing. I was just in San Francisco a few days ago, pity our schedules didn't overlap, I would have loved to meet up and check out all your new gear. And on that note, FANTASTIC work on all that awesome new stuff. You very slyly slipped that into an unassuming thread Justin and then kept releasing better and better news! :P
Your new motors look great and it shouldn't come as a surprise that something you've designed has the best looking side covers of any hub motor I've seen. Likewise the new controllers and chargers look like they'll set the industry on fire (oops, gotta be careful with those keywords in some threads around here :P ) I'll be down for multiples of everything once you're ready for production.

Good luck with the rest of your trip!
liveforphysics wrote:I will give you some adventures in Santa Cruz as well if you're down for it my friend
Just don't get on the back of a zero for late night high speed runs through the redwood forests Justin! It's one thing to read about Luke's mad builds and adventures but it's another when you're hanging off the back of one at full speed :mrgreen:
justin_le wrote:I'm definitely going to do an ebike tour of Au/NZ at somepoint, hopefully before the end of the decade
Awesome, I'll take some time off work to do a leg or 2 of the journey with you when you hit the east coast of Australia :)
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Re: Experimental Cargo Ebike Trip, Vancouver to SF Maker Fai

Post by biohazardman » May 16 2013 10:40pm

Did not catch this till it was too late or I would have been downtown to meet you. Hard to ride in a group as yet cuz still have to go 30mph or the bike surges badly. Keep thinking I will fix it someday but I have sooo many things to fix now and it's what I do all day for werq so it's getting old by the time I gets home. Yup they pay me to practice my addiction what a deal! Sorry I missed you will keep and eye on the rest of your endeavor.
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Re: Experimental Cargo Ebike Trip, Vancouver to SF Maker Fai

Post by fechter » May 17 2013 7:33pm

Sweet! I hope I get to see it in action.
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SF Maker Faire

Post by sunnyoutdoors » May 17 2013 11:37pm

give us notice where you are heading after MAker's Faire, maybe we can meet you at a park or restaurant.

or maybe we can send you off to the airport! :lol:

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Re: Experimental Cargo Ebike Trip, Vancouver to SF Maker Fai

Post by Stevil_Knevil » May 18 2013 12:38am

sunnyoutdoors wrote:give us notice where you are heading after MAker's Faire, maybe we can meet you at a park or restaurant.

or maybe we can send you off to the airport! :lol:
Said the first time poster that joined E-S today..
..That's not creepy :shock:

Hope you mean well, sunny. The eBike Revolution has a posse 8)
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Re: A Freewheeling Stoked Edgerunner Hauling and Touring Mac

Post by fechter » May 18 2013 1:20am

Hyena wrote:Oh man, what bad timing. I was just in San Francisco a few days ago, pity our schedules didn't overlap
Dang!, let me know if you ever come to SF again.
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