"MP6" 1st Panurge's build ENDED

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panurge   10 kW

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"MP6" 1st Panurge's build ENDED

Post by panurge » Jun 11 2013 7:09am

Hi Guys
In this thread I will share photo and vids about the evolution and future rides of my first E-bike. This build can be considered ended.
Since My buildthread ( http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=25101 ) started 2 years ago is a bit confused I will resume the basics of the project:

Started the thread to design and prototype a dedicated Onion frame for an High powered Downhill E-Bike, two beautifull designs sorted out from the projecting phase. 1 for 72 to 144 18650 cells and another for up to 8x5Ah Lipo Bricks, both with a non welded modular frame fully adjustable.
Unfortunately at a certain point, I have abandoned the dedicated frame project, there was a lot of reasons like the lack of time due to too much projects working on, and 2 kids arrived in the last 2 years and half, plus a bad tax/financial conjuncture here in Italy that makes everything about production a nightmare.
So I decided in the meantime to first convert an existing frame, that was a prototype studio for the final MP5 production (maybe 15 pieces in total). It's the actual donor frame, and although It seems to be projected for electrics, it was not.
MP5before.jpg
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BIKE: Onion MP5 Studio Prototype with welded swingarm 260 or 240 rear shock lenght, 7° head adjust, 6 position BB adjusts.
WHEELS: front DTH 2.3 26" tire on a Custom Titanium hub; 24"x2.5 hookworm rear on a DMR revolver hub. for offroad I used a 26" WTB 2.5 DH tire front and a 24x2.6 halo ception rear, I'm looking for alternatives like Arrow's wide bite or DURO Wildlife, once I stareted with the Gravity world there was a lot of Gazzaloddi tires they was heavy but bombproof, unfortuantely out of production....and maybe a bit wide touching my left chain....
BRAKES Gustav M
MOTOR: Astro 32204t 3/8 shaft
DRIVE: Recumpence's DaVinci drive, 5:1 belt reduction with 1/2 Ti shaft, sliding tensioner and WI 16t output Freewheel, left chainring has 61t for a 19:1 total reduction.
ESC: CC 160 HV with additional CAPPAC wired for CA and integrated with a shunt for current reads.
WIRING & CONNECTIONS: 8 AWG coiled 2 poles 1mt long cable, 8mm bullets, 5w 180 Ohms resistor for a "momentary touch" circuit to avoid sparks.
THROTTLE: Magura pot with both servo and CA-LRC interfaces.
BATTERY: since bricks are in a backpack, I could carry basically what I want. until now I've used 10 and 15-Ah Zippy 20C (4 or 6 x5Ah bricks) and 16-Ah turnigys 20C (4x8Ah bricks) in a 12s serie, the packs are permanently stored in lipoguards protections 2 by 2, with a rigid protection made by aluminum equal angle profiles and carbon strips
PICT0031.resized.JPG
A video made today in the early morning....I finnally got a decent camera, next week I will post the freeride experiences, and any new ride shot or updated media:
Last edited by panurge on Mar 27 2015 5:13am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 1st Panurge's build END THREAD

Post by parajared » Jun 11 2013 9:00am

That thing looks absolutely beautiful. I think you will have a lot of fun playing on the trails with it.

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Post by panurge » Jun 12 2013 4:16am

I renamed the subject with the name chosen for the bike.
MP5 means Multi Purpose 5, because the frame was projected to be used in five configurations for 5 different uses, with its full adjustements features and its lightness compared to similar FS frames at its ages :wink: , so I renamed this conversion MP6 with the electric config added :D
parajared wrote:That thing looks absolutely beautiful. I think you will have a lot of fun playing on the trails with it.

I have used the bike only uphill on comfortable, regular, unpaved medium stepped road, to reach the start point of a pair of freeride track and than disconnected the battery backpack and the motor chain, to enjoy the trails almost as usual....
That's the original plan for the bike, and the feel is that using the motor uphill at an almost constant sustained speed with few bursts after some curves or ascents the system should be super reliable....dont know how long I could resist to try an enduro track with repeated uphills/downhills using electric power all the times.... :mrgreen: , I know that should easily means asking for iussues and ESC's flames....I'll try to resist as long as possible :wink:
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Post by parajared » Jun 13 2013 10:28am

dont know how long I could resist to try an enduro track with repeated uphills/downhills using electric power all the times....
It's major fun, man. I was shocked at just how fast you can get these little mid-drive bikes going. All two horsepower of my 80lb e-bike out-performs my 40hp 300 lb Honda XR 600 under the right circumstances just because of how nimble it is. My preferred machine for narrow technical singletrack has become an e-bike.

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Post by panurge » Jun 17 2013 7:29am

Some pics of the ESC mount :D after designing a lot of supports, I found that a trivial Iron wire wrapped longitudunally around the ESC thru heatsink's slots is a neat and stable solution, The whole alu trellis has now a 4 square cm directly in contact with the ESC using some conductive between them....also added an heatsink in the flatened downside of the controller that is pressed by a small 12v CHipset cooler, again an iron wire thru the sink's slots is the way I secured everything.
The added CAPacitors and maybe the use of the CA as a PWM interface, have resolved the exceed of ripple I had using the servo interface and the ESC in factory conditions. So I've reversed the esc and tuned everything again for a Backpack+CA-LRC setup. I have a 3s 2200mAh service lipo that provides power to the led and the esc's fan.....
Next step, if I see high temps on the motor, will be to cool it in some way, untill now it has never been really hot, though.

Ah, thinking of what to do with a solid Turnigy Logo silver Sticker, and before to trash it :) , I cut 4 letters from It: GRIN ........ :mrgreen: and attached them to the Justin's device.
Attachments
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panurge   10 kW

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Post by panurge » Jul 07 2013 6:07am

Hello guys

That's the 500Km report with the MP6:
on the asphalt the bike is unbelievable. I can easily start from dead stops and I've made some short hard dirt uphills trails,
I have a laser term. to look at the esc after any hard sessions, and the higher temps are usually from the ESC, the motor has been dangerously hot only yesterday after a full 16 Ah charge used in a single very long offroad session and I see that it need some time to cool, the ESC otherwise is frequently hot but it really cools in a bit and if I light on the small fan it helps keeping the temps lower and cooling up it faster when anyway hot....

For the final reliable off-road setup I need some dirtbike style chain guide placed near the rear big sprocket, mostly in the lower segment but I'll try to arrange something also in the upper side

In fact while drifting and during other high lateral load situations, the misalignment of the rear wheel is big and since the sprung tensioner is too far from the sprocket and mostly because it is fixed to the frame (so it is misaligned as the frame itself, during these events) the chain tends to skip out easily.
Also I need Some sort of e-breaking system, it is very dangerous to have the esc armed during downhill without them and the magura pot....so finally I need a CA V3 also to add a PAS and try to be legal as possible during eventual urban commuting.
A throttle legalizer feature should be a good option, so that the twist works only if the Pas is reading pedal's revs....I suppose it can be already achieved with the V3 but I'm not sure, I need a deep reading of the V3 manual.

As mentioned I had an heavy duty session with very stepped parts (20+ %) and enduro trails with frequent up and down, compressions, small jumps...I was with 2 buddies With 2 amazing bikes, An FS enduro super-light 2012 Spech, and a KTM e-race with a panasonic rear hubmotor, it has only the pas torque feedback without throttles, it is really light and is able to climb, with the muscular help, really stepped hills, However, to be used in a real all mountain situation, it need some sort of push button to exclude the motor help for short instants, otherwise could be dangerous on descents and corners. at least if you are not used to its reaction, since the torqe PAS acts very quickly and, for a fraction of second, even after you stop to pedal.

I'm waiting for some gopro vids to be uploaded from these guys.

This is the bike in dirt config and the E-racer, plus a short vid from my camera at the meeting point. The guy riding my bike is a promising boy-rider, he is 43 Kg in weight!!!! since the bike is 26.5Kg including battery, its whole weight was under 70Kg, I had to soft the clutch for his ride, though.
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Last edited by panurge on Jul 23 2013 2:30am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by panurge » Jul 08 2013 7:57am

A short ride at sunset, around my farm.





About consumption, I can say that I saw from 7-10 w per Km in flat, paved road and legal mode (10 amp limit) with pedal assist, until 60-70w/km without limits in stepped, dirt uphills.
With a dirtstyle chainguide, this things should be perfect also to be ridden dirt, without any care or fear about chain skips....hopefully in a week I should have it done.....

To be honest, in an hi-powered RC build, one should expect that the reduction drive with belt and jackshaft, is one of the problematic aspect with wear, misalignments and slides, in fact, until now is the only part that has been totally problem-free, this is because of the quality in work and parts that Matt uses in these artwork drives...
I Have a Nikon pro camera, from a friends for some days....It has true optics, is a bit biggg, but it's able of 120fps at 720p and more in VGA :shock: i've made some vids, but they are gigs of bits so, slowly, I need to edit and cut them....be patient :)
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Post by panurge » Jul 09 2013 9:11am

that's the shorter vid I've made with the pro camera, the ride is nothing extreme, but almost the max dirt I can reliably get without any chainguide close to the rear sprocket.
I've tensioned a bit more the sprung seeker and found that it works better in critical situations if some 2 mm out of the ideal line and also a softer clutch setup helped to be more gentle with the rear....
The first 30 secs without audio are High speed 720p, I cannot push the button for the slowmo while riding with the camera into the body holder, so until now only at starts for the max continuous time allowed that's 30 secs.
In the final secs, there's a tribute to our Toy....It has served also to bring us bikers up to the trails, hopefully not anymore :mrgreen: :D
JulesL.


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Post by panurge » Jul 12 2013 8:31pm

before to cnc or weld a chainguide bracket or a new dropout with threads for it I decided to try something to prove that bash are not really required but a dirstyle chainguide.
so I've used the same approach of many other minor mods made on the bike, cheap and simple.
That's what the will to ride as soon as possible without fear for skips and a 80cents alloy profile are able to generate in 10 minutes :mrgreen:
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I love this bike but I think I will reconvert it to the original freeride machine when the next build will be done (that will have a dedicated FS e-frame) so I do not want to make more dedicated or sophisticated bits for this one, basically I use it for fun, but mostly to better understand the needs for the next an to test parts and ideas in the real world.
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Post by panurge » Jul 21 2013 11:15am

I'm testing the bike with a 10Amps 12s Nanotech high discharge briks for a lighter setup that gives me the ability to make 2 ascents to reach the top of my preferred trails.
I've done 100 km with and everything has gone OK, no ripples and not excess of sag, also with high power applied.
Now I'm in the flat Brandenburg's countryside so I'm using the bike in flat trails....ther's a lot of fluvial's sand around here and these are really funny rides....I guess my bike and the e-stuff are not feeling the same.... :mrgreen:
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Last edited by panurge on Jul 22 2013 4:32am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by mdd0127 » Jul 21 2013 1:03pm

Beautiful build! I love the modular frame. If I ever get into the position to build again, I think modular is the way to go.

Also, CAv3 will change your life! If you set it to current throttle and set the throttle threshold just a bit below the resting voltage of the throttle, the electric drive will run whenever you're over the minimum speed, eliminating drag. It only pulls a couple of watts to do so and really changes the ride. It also keeps tension on the drive chain when you're not under throttle so when you hit the throttle, taking up the chain slop doesn't cause a surge.

Excited to see what you come up with next! Wish we could collaborate!
Turn it OFF!!!

Apocaloptimist! (thx Kiwi!)

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Post by panurge » Jul 22 2013 4:31am

Thanks mdd for your kind words.
About modular, it's a beautiful and useful concept that has many advantages and, although we have abandoned it for pedal frames it should be perfect for a dedicated e-frame....It's a bit hard to be realized, though....yes, it avoid the use of jigs for weldings, but needs super precise CNC works, and some simple but crucial tips to avoid stress on the junctures and to keep the frame silent while riding :mrgreen:
Thanks for the tip about the CA I'll try this as soon as possible....I wanna see how this will interact with the use of e-brakes, that are really needed for the hard downhill segments of the trails, at least until I've not achieved a perfect kind of throttle...but wow!, eliminating drag and surges would be a true dream. About collaborating...why not? Feel free to PM me if you already have any Ideas about this. And of course, You are welcome in Italy!!!! I loved your mobile green lab.....it is inspirational.
JulesL.


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Post by panurge » Jul 23 2013 2:25am

The simple and cheap chainguide i've made has been a true step forward for off road, it works great....but it's noisy, since is made by nude alloy tubing....I'm thinking about some kind of vertical rollers....My first try will be to add teflon tubes that have an ID slightly bigger than the OD of the alloy tubing (8mm) I've used for the chainguide, If i could not find them, than i'll fabricate them starting from the closer useful size I will find, or by solid billets with my tools.....

Ah! more than 2 years ago, during my very first posts here on ES, member hillhater has wrote about my bike:
Hillhater wrote:Frame sure looks impressive...but i doubt it would be as light or rigid as a welded Al, or one piece CF frame..
...and a real b1tch to keep clean ! :lol:
Im thinking "Show pony" rather than "Race horse" .. :roll:
Maybe we should start a "Book" on guessing the cost ! :wink:
After all this time, and with the build ended, I would respond to these stats that the only very true sentence is: ....and a real b1tch to keep clean!

Of course is also true that a monocoque CF it's the lighter frame possible....but, speaking about true DH/freeride....the risk that the first tumble could be fatal for the frame is high, and this happens, sometimes, even if your name is Gee :mrgreen: ....try to ask him how many bones and frames has brocken during his racing life... :mrgreen:
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Post by full-throttle » Jul 23 2013 2:59am

panurge wrote:The simple and cheap chainguide i've made has been a true step forward for off road, it works great....but it's noisy
Clutched derailleurs (Shimano Shadow+, SRAM Type-2) work brilliantly and only require a simple top guide
When combined with a narrow-wide chainring like RaceFace or Absolute NO chainguide is required. Magic :lol:
You would have to change your drive train to 10sp though..

EDIT: WorksComponents is another MFG of those chainrings

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panurge   10 kW

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Post by panurge » Jul 23 2013 7:43am

Thanks full-throttle for your tip, but unfortunately I was talking about the left drivetrain, that is driven by the motor :wink: so the derailleurs you have kindly suggested are not useful for this application, I think.....I know, my bad english does not helps to well express what I have in mind....sometimes...
The funny thing, is that I'm already planning to turn the pedal drive into 10 speed using one of those derailleurs..... :D
Also, I've modified the first 150mm swingarm prototype of the new AA-M frame that is also some 35mm longer, to fit my old MP5 proto....so I could have enough space for 10 speed on the right plus a more spaced chainring+brake caliper on the left^_^ (with a dedicated Hub....this will be one of the feature of the next e-frame....) I have not big problem with the pedal drivetrain, though....the old MRP boomerang+rollers works pretty well....

For the left motor drive, in fact, a new dropout or a bracket that could mount a pair of inverted front derailleurs could be otherwise used in some way....and before to fabricate the cheap "snake-guide" this was my plan
panurge wrote:That's what the will to ride as soon as possible without fear for skips and a 80cents alloy profile are able to generate in 10 minutes :mrgreen:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/downlo ... ?id=114784
....but this snake-guide is working great, and I had no left chain derail after that, so I would try to make it silent first, before to eventually upgrade to something more expensive and sophisticated^_^
JulesL.


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Post by panurge » Jul 28 2013 5:53am

Some pics of the bike in Bayern....I've used it to make a small soft ascent of 11km at 6.30 in the morning,
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noway to meet anybody if not a pair of riders... :mrgreen: here I could be stopped by cops of 2 different countries :)
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used almost the full battery ( 8 amps from 10 of the nominal capacity) but had a 43Kmh average speed in the 9Km of the main street.....the motor was nothing more than warm. Than after a 2 km of dirt uphill I got a 1100 panoramic position.
After few minutes of landscapes and sun, 3Km freeride descent and a relaxing 6km of downhill asphalt ride
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, I come back to the lake
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for a refreshing swim :shock: ....a perfect day starts while the family is still sleeping :D
JulesL.


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Post by panurge » Aug 05 2013 8:06am

hi guys
back in tuscany I've made a 20Km run with 10 of flat road an 10 of a medium to hard stepped upphill. with 500m of increased altitude, mostly concentrated in the last 6 Km with up to 25% peaks sections. the video is concerning the last 8 Kms only....that I made at full throttle most of the time.....the small RC cam I used for this it's a bit damaged on the optic, so slightly unfocused ...also, there's the brake's hose that partially covers the view, the audio is really affected by the wind noise....but that is.... :mrgreen:
These are the CA stats just before to start the vid, after 12Km of almost flat paved road: 8Wh/Km with the CA most of the time showing max 500W of consumption and 28Kph average speed, in fact I pedaled A lot in the flat section because I was not sure about the autonomy for the uphill section...Now I know I had enough juice to do the entire route...
Hope some of you could find it interesting.....

Ah....since My primary job is topografy survey and GIS in agricuture and forestry applications, I've some Hi-tech instruments as geoGPS ecc. but to verify and make a perfect tare for the CA tachometer I've used this analogic metric-wheel, while slowly pedaling :mrgreen: nothing compare with its precision for this application....I think....
JulesL.


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Post by rodgah » Aug 06 2013 6:44am

thats a big climb. Was the motor hot after that?
Common Sense isn't so common........
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Post by panurge » Aug 06 2013 7:44am

Hi Rodger

Yes....the motor was really hot, more than in any other ride with it, It was 65 C° at the Can after 2 minutes I turned it off....It was the first time that I see such an High temps so My hand was not comfortable touching it for more than some seconds....But I have to add that the outside temp was around 35 and more C°....I was a bit crazy to do that, but hey, before to makes real the new frame project I need to be sure that the system is reliable enough.

Cheers
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Post by rodgah » Aug 06 2013 5:06pm

i have been thinking about this a bit, maybe a thermistor inside the motor that is inline with the throttle might make it more 'bulletproof'. My reasoning is that sometimes it is very easy to get the motor to overheat, ie hot day, climbing something you havent climbed before etc etc. So a bit of extra protection wouldnt go astray especially when you are concentrating on riding.
Common Sense isn't so common........
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Post by rodgah » Aug 06 2013 5:30pm

does the CA do anything with the temp other than display it crossbreak? My problem is I get focused on riding too much, it really needs either a buzzer or to cut power somehow to make me notice in the heat of the moment :lol: .
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Post by panurge » Aug 06 2013 8:36pm

I'm still using the CA-LRC so I've not the probe sensor imput on the CA But I'm pretty sure that the V3 could do what you mean, Rodger....Or I missed something and the original Justin's plans are changed?
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 25#p553707
In September I will buy it....if it is available I would try to get a small screen (without case) one.
My Plan is to make an Upper case that covers the buttons, this will be very useful for a true legal mode, with PAS and speed/current limits....since In FLorence, some local cops are equipped with Bikes and also with Pedelecs and they are informed about the laws that regulate the electric bikes in Italy.....They are always serching for Pas and for possible way to commute an apparently legal bike to a superbike....having buttons on a screen that allows to change limits on the street is totally illegal, here. The best thing should be to have an external device with buttons and/or preprogrammed setups and an accessible port on the Interface (CA or others) to connect it....
Cheers
JulesL.


Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit

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Onion MP6 - recumpence drives - CAV3 - CC HV160ESC - Astro 32204t

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mdd0127   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sep 30 2008 4:43pm

Re: "MP6" 1st Panurge's build ENDED

Post by mdd0127 » Aug 06 2013 11:45pm

I used two $1.50 auto resetting nc thermal breakers when I first put my bike together. I put one on the motor and one on the controller and ran the throttle signal through them. If either one opened, no throttle until it cooled down. It only operated once because my timing ring slipped and things started getting hot but it worked perfectly.

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-st ... 05C/1.html

I strung these together around the battery pack too but took it all off when troubleshooting a defective 3220 and never put it back on because it was unnecessary.
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-st ... 5-C/1.html
Turn it OFF!!!

Apocaloptimist! (thx Kiwi!)

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crossbreak   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2786
Joined: Aug 02 2011 11:20am
Location: Germany
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Re: "MP6" 1st Panurge's build ENDED

Post by crossbreak » Aug 07 2013 4:49am

The CA V3 can limit current if a certain Temp is reached. Got 5 sensors ( Thermistor 10k) for one euro at the bay, have one in almost all of my motors. Just glue them to a coil using high temp epoxy putty (up to 300°C)

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