Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

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speedmd
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Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by speedmd » Jul 17, 2013 12:01 pm

Some photos of my first build in testing phase. Need to finish the bat. box and a bit of the cosmetics.

Image


About as tight a bb you can fit in a triple ring setup.
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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by skyungjae » Jul 17, 2013 1:33 pm

Beautiful. Are you going to include specifics on your build? :wink:
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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by speedmd » Jul 17, 2013 1:55 pm

Thanks Skyungjae

I put most all the commercial part details on my profile trailer that runs below my posts. Happy to share dimensions of the custom parts if I can remember all of what I did. I had to tweak a few things along the way and I always build too tight so it is a bit of a pain getting stuff apart. Fits are loosing up nicely, so let me know if you need some dimensions and I can measure as I disassemble to polish up the stuff before I re assemble it.

cheers
Last edited by speedmd on Jul 17, 2013 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by skyungjae » Jul 17, 2013 2:29 pm

speedmd wrote:GNG1 #25, 12/72 primary stage chain drive mod. Home made eccentric jack shaft bearing structure with aluminum sprocket and freewheel hubs.
Definitely curious about that. That's a very clean chain drive modification.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by speedmd » Jul 17, 2013 4:20 pm

Thanks Skyungjae

My goal was to eliminate the need for idlers and have infinite adjustment on both chains. Not original, and much like a few of the current eccentric BB bearing cup setups. Thought I lucked out, but I will need to add something to the secondary chain side as it develops slop much quicker than the other side. (bike chains suck) I think I can still get this to work with a bit of adjustment in the BB side steel motor mount by bagging out the screw holes just a bit and adding a torque rod to help tighten and also keep it in place. I have a better way for a conventional bb shell, but not enough room on the cdale for it. The top (down tube) frame mount is also something I will upgrade with a solid machined alloy block that wraps part way around the tube and spaced / bolted solid between the jack shaft mounting plates. This will help stop the torque pulling the secondary side to the right when putting gobs of juice into it.

As you can see on the last photo I posted, there is just a smidge of clearance at the 13t freewheel hub shaft / crank arm. This is after I shortened the shaft some 4 mm, and put the rings in as close as I could to clear the 53 tooth ring on the rear stay and not have the final drive chain try to climb on top of the 56 tooth secondary ring / chain. I wanted it to pedal more like a road bike and did not want to go with a wide BB.

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by kifukarider » Jul 17, 2013 8:07 pm

Looks great speedmd. When I posted my build, I tried to include details and links to all of the parts I used. Did you keep track of the parts list and have links? I'm sure many of us would appreciate the extra details.

Very, very nice.

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by speedmd » Jul 18, 2013 8:19 am

Thanks klfukarider

I did not keep a parts list unfortunately. Much stuff came from ebay over the last 8 months. The 72 tooth sprocket that needed much work was listed as a scooter sprocket. The track ring spyders are listed there also as are the connectors, freewheels, bb, rings and the like. Lucked out on the big ring at the local bike shop. Friendly mechanic remembered he had one, at the bootom of his tool box. :shock: Lots of shop wear, but it fit the build perfect and mated to the style of the new sram rings. Lots of spare bike parts (I save way too much) and scrap material to turn up the hubs, spacers and such. Surplus center, hobbyking and hobbyparts for the other stuff. Drilling the big holes was more for decoration and may do some more of it if the parts come off again.

The battery box carbon was remenants from a ebay dealer also and a good value if you want carbon. I did it mostly for the color match and the higher tech look. I remember now why I gave up on polyester many years ago. No one in town stocks cans of epoxy anylonger and I did not want to wait a few days to start that so I went with the polyester. Sure I can get it to look fine, but I added much work going that route. If not, It will get bondo and paint but I have a bunch of home projects I need to get back to first.

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by John in CR » Jul 18, 2013 2:58 pm

Keep an eye on that 2nd chain. Unless the picture angle is off the 2 sprockets don't appear to be in alignment. That would explain your chain troubles there. Side loads have caused some freewheel failures, and the last thing you want is instantly going from freewheeling cranks to must pedal at full rpm. This potential has prevented me from any builds where motor power runs through freewheeling cranks. A freewheel with dual sets of bearings would mitigate much of the risk.

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by speedmd » Jul 18, 2013 5:24 pm

Hi John in CR

Good to hear from you. It is not perfect for certain and the wide angle photo/adjustment has some issues also. Agree it is a bad situation having opposing freewheels and trying to hold alignments. When all snugged up correctly (It was a bit over rotated on the secondary side in the picture), it clearly is angled one way when resting and the opposite when power is on it. The top (hose clamp) mount is a joke also at holding the alignment and hesitate greatly on hoping this up any more than it is. The eccentric also can be played with a bit too much and can knock the alignment out if your not careful. I left a bit of extra metal on the 13 tooth freewheel hub as it is easier to take some off than to add metal and all the threaded freewheel parts are not quite fully seated in yet. This all will hopefully get sorted out in the coming miles/ if becomes a issue.

The bike chain is measurably stretching much faster than the 1/4 inch #25 chain. Understandably the 1/2 inch bike chain has much more tension on it and fewer / lighter links. If I had to do it over again I would put a free wheel hub on the larger primary sprocket and go to a gocart chain / sprockets on the secondary. I may end up doing just that at some point. For now it is just a commuter I can hopefully have some fun riding and learn some with it.

Want one of those two speed controllers and possibly a smaller 6 phase wound motor now! :twisted: Shopping now for a good used Mtn bike to use as a platform. :) I see what you did with the dual controller setup as a much much better way to increase speed than shifting bike gears. On board 100% now.

cheers

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by John in CR » Jul 19, 2013 11:23 am

speedmd wrote:...Want one of those two speed controllers and possibly a smaller 6 phase wound motor now! :twisted: Shopping now for a good used Mtn bike to use as a platform. :) I see what you did with the dual controller setup as a much much better way to increase speed than shifting bike gears. On board 100% now.....
Not sure what you mean. I don't have any 2 speed controllers. Dual controllers are needed to run our 6 phase motors, but it's not about increasing speed. The motors have 6 phase wires. To eliminate the need for shifting gears you simply need enough power to run fixed gearing to have the torque you want for acceleration and the top speed you want. I have an excess of both, and that's with 270lb me aboard. One of the cyclist weight guys may need to put a diaper on before riding, especially with the weak point being the brakes. :shock:

You have a nice big motor. It should be fine with a simple single stage reduction to the rear. That's for later after chain issues get old, so you can truly appreciate the simple way.

John

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by speedmd » Jul 19, 2013 12:39 pm

Hi John

Yes the dual controller is what I will call it from now on. You had a video link showing how it worked a ways back. Will search again for it. The way I understood it, is the first controller runs the motor as normal, then switches to the other controller and other set of 3 phase wires which are wound/timed for a higher RPM. Please correct so I can use the proper terms/ functions.

I wondering how smooth the transition is to the second controller. Also thinking it could tie into a two or three speed hub style tranny ( on and OFF road) possibly in a jack shaft that is separate from the bike gear train for tons of speed range and power every where on the band. Anything like it in a smaller/ narrow motor. If so put me down for one.

The GNG is what it is. Not much you can do with it when tied into the bike gear train. I left enough material at the center of the larger primary sprocket hub to tread it for a freewheel or track cog and go direct to the rear wheel from there, but that brings in a ton of new problems and limited speed range unless I use a multi speed hub as a jack. Don't think it is worth it on this bike. It is ok the way it is if I can keep the slack out of the secondary chain, and keep the freewheels from blowing apart. It is not simple for certain, and could not have done what I did without the machine tools. Lots can go wrong for certain.

BTW; You have more than a hundred pounds on me and I am quickly nearing diaper age, but no problem mate, still able to hold onto anything you put under me and give it a good go. :twisted:

cheers

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by John in CR » Jul 19, 2013 1:44 pm

speedmd wrote:Hi John

Yes the dual controller is what I will call it from now on. You had a video link showing how it worked a ways back. Will search again for it. The way I understood it, is the first controller runs the motor as normal, then switches to the other controller and other set of 3 phase wires which are wound/timed for a higher RPM. Please correct so I can use the proper terms/ functions.

I wondering how smooth the transition is to the second controller. Also thinking it could tie into a two or three speed hub style tranny ( on and OFF road) possibly in a jack shaft that is separate from the bike gear train for tons of speed range and power every where on the band. Anything like it in a smaller/ narrow motor. If so put me down for one.
Both controllers run all the time on the 6 phase motor. The result is a smoother quieter more efficient motor. It also can be wound to the higher Kv required for scooter hubbie use without going to such low inductance windings that controllers have problems. Plus since both controllers split the current load, a pair cheap controllers is able to outperform a single 3 phase controller of more than double the total price.

No internally geared hub could stand up to the torque of either of our 6 phase motors, but multiple gears aren't needed anyway.

I think you may have looked at some info on our smallest motor, which has 2 speeds. It is 3 phase and just requires one controller. It accomplishes the 2 speeds with a mechanical switching of the windings from series to parallel. The motor essentially has 2 different rpm/volt, one twice as fast as the other. There is no mechanical gearing advantage to low speed, and the controller behaves differently to the 2 different windings, so there is very little difference in torque between high and low. Low does climb hills better, but that's because it is more efficient at low rpm under load than in high.

The stocks of the 2 speed are all but gone. We're working with the factory on 2 different versions of that motor. One would be a lower Kv and made with spoke flanges for a nice little 2 speed bicycle friendly 1500-2kw hubbie that can do both speed and hills. The other version will be a mid-drive specific 8kg outrunner wound to a 50% higher Kv. The thicker windings and lack of a 2 speed switching mechanism that limits max current will make it an 8kg beast capable of extreme power while retaining a low enough Kv for a single reduction straight from the motor to the wheel without going to noisy small diameter drive sprocket.

You're a motorcycle guy, so it baffles me how you're settling for moderate power ebike performance. Sure it's kinda fun since you're so light, but once you stretch the wheelbase a bit lowering the CG and moving it forward, and give yourself a solid 12-15kw of near silent electric power geared for a top speed of about 100kph with a bike that weighs about 50kg, it will be a whole new world for you. Then you'll lose interest in gassers and their unnecessary parts like trannies. Go test drive a Tesla to help gain an understanding of how a tranny isn't necessary. You need an ebike that outruns your buddies' moto's up to moderate traffic speeds.

John
Last edited by John in CR on Jul 19, 2013 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by speedmd » Jul 19, 2013 2:16 pm

Keep me posted on the new two speeds when they are ready.

I hear you on the lower power target but I just started riding a ebike and this stuff takes a bit of time to set root. Also, I have years of history as a kid getting chased around by the fuzz and getting many of my home made machines taken away. Rode right past a cruiser with it the other day certain I was getting pulled over. Fortunately I was going relatively slow. I live in a much more forgiving area than I did as a kid so it is mostly a mind set now for me.

If I can keep it looking like a bicycle, no prob going with the more powerful stuff. Most likely need to settle on a on or off road machine and plan from there.

Given your experience with the c-dale super V, would you go that route again. Lots of them around for little money with head shocks I can swap out to a better fork.

cheers

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by John in CR » Jul 19, 2013 6:09 pm

The nice thing about a SuperV is that long straight main/down tube. It makes for a lot of space for batteries. The head tube angle is a bit steep for very high speed, but a couple of inch larger diameter tire in front and a long travel fork and mine is solid through 100mph. The right answer is a bike where the batteries go inside the frame. I've long wanted to copy that long straight main tube of a SuperV but with a larger rectangular interior that would make a cavernous battery compartment in a stealthy form.

The real answer for your dilemma is two ebikes, just like a proper street moto is no good off the road and a proper dirt bike is not very good on road. Then as long as you have pretty good streets then the compromises are minimal with the extremely easy route of a high powered hubbie in-wheel. Low weight makes things so simple for you. Take advantage of it.

If you're worried about cops, be proactive and go introduce yourself to them under the pretense of asking about local ebike laws. Ask for their cards, which is a keep your ebike out of jail free card good for at least a one time use as long as you're not recklessly endangering someone else. The noise pollution of your home-builts as a kid is the basis of you getting hassled, so with an ebike don't ride like an ass, and don't act like an ass in the off chance you get pulled over, and your bike won't get confiscated. People are way to paranoid around here. If I was stateside I'd ride the same bikes in the same manner as I do down here.

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by speedmd » Jul 20, 2013 11:41 am

Thanks John

Like the idea of getting the business cards of the locals. Most of the younger ones know my kid from school or are related some way. Sounds like a good plan.

Will keep you posted what I find for the next builds. Agree, most likely a trail bike and also a roadie. Hopefully I can share some of the battery parts to help keep cost in check.

cheers

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by speedmd » Jul 23, 2013 11:57 am

Update on secondary chain slacking. I have been testing this setup daily and finding that the top/front clamp (hose clamp is allowing the front end of the motor assembly to move to the right too much under power) is what is causing most of the adjustment issues with the secondary chain. Thinking now, it is the weak link in chain alignment/ tension issues with this kit. Will post a picture/update as soon as I have a chance to come up / install a good fix for this.

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by speedmd » Jul 25, 2013 2:03 pm

Made a new experimental front mount. Much stiffer and torque transfer to the wheel in much stronger and more sudden now. I can push on the front end (on the hub of the 13T freewheel) with my foot and feel no sideways movement at all. None visible via the motor torque either. I used 1/2 x 1-1/2 x 2 inch aluminum bar and cradled /nested the down tube into the top face of it. Very please with it so far. Clamp setup just a temporary solution for testing it out. Image

Battery box getting close. Cover snaps in and stays put reasonably well. Need to come up with some type of latches before I start to mess with the top finish coats.
Last edited by speedmd on Jul 01, 2015 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by meelis11 » Aug 15, 2013 5:48 am

That is nice work :)
If you take that secondary chain reduction apart for modding/servicing, please make more detailed pictures and post them to your build topic!
Would be nice to see what parts you used there to use 3 speeds (2 speeds?) on front chainring.

Meelis

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by speedmd » Aug 15, 2013 7:53 am

Thanks Meelis

Will do when it comes apart. It is a standard off the shelf spyder for the crank, fitted to the flanged freewheel and spaced to work with the stock shimano 9sp front derailleur. I had to turn around the pinch bolt on it so I could tighten it up. This frame is made more for compact cranks by I got it to just squeeze in fortunately without hammering / cutting anything. I wanted to preserve the dual chain ring front end and did not want to go with a wide bb. It is about as tight as you can go without customising the right chain stay at 122mm bb length. The jack is a eccentric design that a bunch of folks have been using for many years in tandem bb adjustments. Straight forward hub for the 13 tooth freewheel to line up.

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by deepfraught » Jan 21, 2014 9:39 pm

I love this bike, I don't think we got them down here, or at least very very rare.
Recreational: BBSHD 100mm on fat bike through a Rohloff XL, soft programming gentle on the hub, pedal only and long range capable.
Civil duty: Corratec 29er Diamond Trekking Bosch Performance Line 400Wh Alfine 8sp, auxiliary battery port.
History: Front hub SS 200W, China E-mtb 200W, 3x A2B Metros, Commuter Booster beta, 2.4kW d/s w/DD kit, MAC 1.5kW road/flatbar 1250Wh EM3EV frame batt, BBS02 750W d/s MTB 1250Wh frame batt. All sold (except A2B Metros).

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by speedmd » Jan 22, 2014 9:51 am

Thanks. It does work well as a commuter. They only made them a few years, but continued a similar mtn bike for quite a while. The Mtn bike version may be what you could find more easily. Still a excellent frame for e build. Head shock is a concern long term but working fine for the few miles I ride it. I have my eyes out for a suitable suspension fork for it but more focused on my off road builds at the moment. Lots of other great bikes this vintage for ebikes. Great for you as they are not in favor for pedal only use, so you can get them relatively cheep.

cheers

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by kiwiev » Nov 10, 2015 1:14 am

Nice build mate

Cheers Kiwi

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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by liveforphysics » Nov 10, 2015 1:25 am

Nice ride!
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Re: Bad Boy ultra first build (almost done)

Post by speedmd » Nov 10, 2015 6:44 pm

Thanks!

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