Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Cube ( Custom Bomber ) build. FINISHED !!

Post by madin88 » Feb 22 2014 1:14pm

Dlogic wrote: Riding my build around Germany is considered a criminal offense.
Sad but true. It´s on the same step as selling drugs or harming someone else on purpose.

So, to prevent them from locking me up this is the only available option.
you are so right. in some areas the cops are nice and tolerant, but it still feels criminal.
I think we will feel more safe with a license and insurance. To have a financial coverage, lawyer if an accident happens on the road with other people involved is the main thing. Even if the accident was not our fault, the law can decide it was ours because of the self made bike etc..
hopefully you will pass the TÜV without much effort. i wish you the best :)
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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chucho   1 kW

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Re: Cube ( Custom Bomber ) build. FINISHED !!

Post by chucho » Apr 18 2014 4:22am

Thank you very much for sharing!!! Doing a street legal bike is one of my dreems... But if you think Germany is restrictive come to Spain and cry :roll: INTA thats is the only company to do it... Is of the goverment and make it as horrible as they can so only big companies can make it... And they get surpriced why we hace 25% unemployment when everything works that way :(

It would be great if you could find out what steps that would be necesary (if posible) to legalize a mopped that is legal in Germany in an other country of the european union :D

Do you need to have any certificate in welding, engineering... To make the mopped?

Thank you very much to make me see my dreem a bit closer :wink:
Someone who does not doubt is a danger to the rest

9c+24slipo+60A lyen12fets+CAv3+26"hookworms=Fun commute
Cargobike+9c+13s33Ah=Fun transport
Kona entourage+ gng+ 40A lyen12fets+CAv3=Fun crosscountry
Flux+adaptto Max-e+Mxusv2+19" shinko= Monster fun Any Way

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Dlogic   1 kW

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Re: Cube ( Custom Bomber ) build. FINISHED !!

Post by Dlogic » Apr 25 2014 11:18am

Ok guys ( and maybe girls too ), it´s time for a status update.

Today is a wonderful day!

The TÜV has approved the bike as street legal. All the necessary documents have been handed over to me.
A serial number was hacked into the frame and a small decal states the most important details.

On Monday next week i will visit the " Zulassungsstelle ", taking with me all the documents to get the bike registered.

The only downside is the money spent. All in all about 640 €.
It was worth it though. The police stopped me last weekend for the first time. Luckily they only showed interest in the bike. :mrgreen:

Chris, a good friend and great photographer, will take some high quality pics of the bike on the road.
YES, a riding video through the streets of Dresden will be next on my agenda. Now that the hiding is over.

AND YES DEAR PEDELECFORUM, IT´S POSSIBLE TO GET A BIKE STREET LEGAL!!!!!! EVEN IN GERMANY!

So stop working on your 250 watt stuff and go for 4Kw!
That´s the legal limit for a moped in Germany and believe me, it´s so much fun!

YEAH, gonna open a beer now!
And another!
And still another!

……. lol

Image

Image

I had to fabricate a chain guard. :-)

Image

Image
Last edited by Dlogic on Apr 26 2014 2:19pm, edited 1 time in total.

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by izeman » Apr 25 2014 12:12pm

super - gratuliere!!! alles gute und viele unfallfreie kilometer!
servus aus wien

for our non german speaking guys: well done - and happy riding :)

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pucksterpete   1 kW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by pucksterpete » Apr 25 2014 5:40pm

Great Job D, Awesome work!!!
Optim Alp Hardtail with MXUS Motor
20S 2P Turnigy 5.0 Hard Case
Top speed 38mph tops :)
Hyena Special
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 97#p585997
-------
Excelsior/Strong GTS with Cromotor
24S 3P Turnigy 5.0 Hard Case
Top speed so far 53mph
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=46993

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voicecoils   10 MW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by voicecoils » Apr 25 2014 9:54pm

Congratulations on getting the compliance plate! Your perseverance is admirable.

Architectonic   1 kW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by Architectonic » Apr 26 2014 1:29am

Well I'm impressed.

Is this something of a first in Germany?

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by izeman » Apr 26 2014 1:48am

Architectonic wrote:Well I'm impressed.

Is this something of a first in Germany?
no surely not. there are many ebikes that are street legal and faster than a pedelec (25km/h). but they are mainly made by companies. for a private person it's a lot of work and very complicated because of all the different rules you have to follow.
and germany (and austria) are known to be very strict with what you are allowed to do. you habe to recertificate the traffic compliance (brakes, lights, noise, pollution ...) every year.

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John Bozi   1 MW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by John Bozi » Apr 26 2014 2:22am

bloody great!

cwah   10 GW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by cwah » Apr 26 2014 2:50am

Is it still street legal if it changes country?
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by izeman » Apr 26 2014 5:44am

cwah wrote:Is it still street legal if it changes country?
yes. if you have a vehicle registered as street legal in one country you are allowed to travel in another country with it. otherwise it would be impossible to travel :) of course you have to register it in the country of your living if you move from one country to another, and there it may not be possible to register it.

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Dlogic   1 kW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by Dlogic » Apr 26 2014 10:46am

Indeed it´s a difficult task to get the bike approved.
So many details have to be taken into consideration.

This is just a small list of the points that had to be taken care of:

1. Chain guard around the radius where the cranks rotate.
2. Detailed information about the battery. ( Cell type, manufacturer, Kw/h and voltage )
3. Controller manufacturer ( Technical data )
4. Industrial type connectors ( Waterproof automotive types )
5. Tail and Headlight with E-approval. ( I used LED types to prolong battery live )
6. Electric Horn
7. License plate holder
8. Rear view mirrors.
9. Disc brakes with visible oil reservoir on the brake levers
10. ECE R100 approval ( This is damn tough and costs a small fortune if you plan to manufacture in series )
11. Details about the suspension
12. The bicycle tires had to be discarded. I´m using 18 * 3.00 inches Heidenau tires. The bikes handling improved dramatically. :-) Feels so secure and flats are now a thing of the past.
13. A light ( Green LED ) that shows the rider when the throttle is armed and ready.
14. Speed limit of 45 Km/h. Has to be tamper proof!
15. A self retracting kickstand is a must have!
16. This is not necessary but i did it anyways for security reasons. An hydraulic pressure switch in the brake hose turns on the rear brake light when the lever is pulled.
17. A rear reflector must be installed.
18. The license plate has to be illuminated.
19. The disc brake system is tested with a decelerator that is bolted to the bike and measures the meters per second the brakes have in stopping power. This test has to be repeated 10 times without any fading!

They told me that i´m the first here in Saxony to go through the entire process and finish with a street legal e-motorbike.
But there will be others in the rest of Germany. Not everyone here forms part of the frightened about everything dudes on the Pedelecforum! :mrgreen:

In the end it´s plain and simple.
Everyone said that this is impossible.
Then some guy came around that didn´t know this and just did it. :D

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Allex   1 GW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by Allex » Apr 26 2014 4:47pm

Damn, you must be really proud, I would be, after this huge work you put out!

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Dlogic   1 kW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by Dlogic » Apr 27 2014 12:44am

Thanks guys for all the positive feedback. :mrgreen:

The best part is that riding around now does not put me in jail if the cops ever happen to pull me over.

The second best part, even though they will never find out about this build, are the Pedelecforum gurus that still believe 250 watts is what e-biking is all about. Everyone that goes for more is immediately criticized and barked down by them. :mrgreen:

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voicecoils   10 MW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by voicecoils » Apr 27 2014 2:04am

Dlogic wrote:I
14. Speed limit of 45 Km/h. Has to be tamper proof!
I'm curious, what did you need to do to demonstrate that the speed limit was tamper proof?

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by Elliot » Apr 27 2014 2:21am

Great achievement dlogic !!!!

Damn impressive skills and determination :D

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Dlogic   1 kW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by Dlogic » Apr 27 2014 3:09am

voicecoils wrote:
Dlogic wrote:I
14. Speed limit of 45 Km/h. Has to be tamper proof!
I'm curious, what did you need to do to demonstrate that the speed limit was tamper proof?
Dlogic wrote:That wasn´t too difficult. Programming a speed and amp limit did the trick. They made a test ride afterwards. Being honest the possibility to add a 3 way speed switch was explained. Leaving this uninstalled was good enough for them. :mrgreen:

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by madin88 » Apr 27 2014 4:40am

very good to hear you passed the test. congrates to you registered E-bike! :)
yes it is not cheap but its worth it.
Thank you for the list you posted of the points that had to be take care of. I think in my country austria it will be very similar.

i have questions to some of the points:

2. is there a limit in battery voltage?
4. did you have to change also battery connectors to automotive types or are "RC model" gold connectors sufficient?
9. i do not know any bicylce brakes with VISIBLE oil reservoir. i mean most of them have a reservoir, but the filling level is not visible.
10. can you explain more detail what you had to do to make your bike ECE R100 compliant?
19. how did your braking system perform at this test. i mean 10 times without fading must be really hard for a 200g bicycle front rotor i think..
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by KarlJ » Apr 27 2014 5:45am

Here in Australia we've recently adopted the crappy Euro regulations.

My understanding is that its now 250W /25km/hr max and no hand throttles.
Fine here in Western Australia is
Riding an unregistered motorcycle,
Riding without a valid license class -same a driving unlicensed.
(assuming you have no motorcycle endorsement on your car license)

I saw a guy get done with a petrol motor conversion on a mountain bike -spoke to him as he walked away.
(cops confiscated the bike and he had to pay to get it "towed" to a yard :( )

I'm running with EVADE, AVOID, RESTRAINT as ways of not getting caught.

Going past motorcycle cops in the bike lane at >35km/hr i avoid LOL.

An amazing achievement A) building the Bike B) being able to stomach the $$ C) getting it legal

I salute you.

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by peters » Apr 27 2014 10:52am

Congrats for passing the procedure!
As there are increasing number of e-bikers, I'm afraid police will look after us within a few years, in every country. Until then we have a little more freedom...
Of course, in the city I ride in bicycle mode, 25km/h and the unleashed 300(!!!) watts in Hungary :)

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Dlogic   1 kW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by Dlogic » Apr 27 2014 12:27pm

madin88 wrote:very good to hear you passed the test. congrates to you registered E-bike! :)
yes it is not cheap but its worth it.
Thank you for the list you posted of the points that had to be take care of. I think in my country austria it will be very similar.

i have questions to some of the points:

2. is there a limit in battery voltage?
4. did you have to change also battery connectors to automotive types or are "RC model" gold connectors sufficient?
9. i do not know any bicylce brakes with VISIBLE oil reservoir. i mean most of them have a reservoir, but the filling level is not visible.
10. can you explain more detail what you had to do to make your bike ECE R100 compliant?
19. how did your braking system perform at this test. i mean 10 times without fading must be really hard for a 200g bicycle front rotor i think..
Dlogic wrote: Yes, anything over 48 volts is considered high voltage and asks for special protective features explained in detail under the ECE R 100. The only brake manufacturer that gives detailed information about the oil quantity used is Magura. The Elmoto e-bike uses this brake for those reasons. My bike got a special permit for the higher voltage used. This " Ausnahmegenehmigung " has to be written by a qualified engineer. As long it´s not a series production bike everything is fine here. :-) The Avid Code R brakes had no problem stopping the bike 10 times over. The missing manufacturer details on the oil quantities used where taken care of by another " Ausnahmegenehmigung "

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Dlogic   1 kW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by Dlogic » Apr 27 2014 12:38pm

In Germany every builder faces the same problem.

That´s why the guys in the Pedelecforum are so afraid to go for more power.

On the day of registration a cop passed by and we talked about the legal issues.
He told me the following:

If they stop a rider with a vehicle that has more then 250 watts and this uses a throttle to control the motor, they will confiscate the vehicle on the spot. :evil:

The rider will be charged and fined for the following:

1. Riding around with an unregistered vehicle.
2. For the taxes not payed for.
3. Endangering others.
4. The lack of insurance.

The worst case scenario is an accident involving people getting hurt.
They consider this as a criminal offense and if the damage to others is sever then you can end up in jail.
That´s a risk not worth taking!

If they ever catch me riding on a bike lane now then here it´s only a so called " Ordnungswidrigkeit ". A fine of 20 € has to be payed for. That´s all. :-)

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by Chuechco » Apr 27 2014 1:18pm

Congratulations on your successful legalisation!

I am building a similar bike with 2kW of power. My plan is to use a pedal sensor instead of a throttle and switch to 250W-mode when riding in the city. Changing to 2kW requres a special procedure. Even if you get pulled over by cops, you could argue that the bike is street legal and the controller is set to no more than 250w nominal power.

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Dlogic   1 kW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by Dlogic » Apr 27 2014 1:36pm

That sounds like a good idea. As long as you take it easy with that extra power.

Doing 70 km/h on a bike lane will surely catch someones attention sooner or later.
But there´s always the forests here.
Just a few days ago a feral pig almost ran over me while riding around the forest. Animals don´t run away when approaching them without the typical engine noise. -lol-

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Street LEGAL Custom Bomber build! :-)

Post by izeman » Apr 27 2014 2:32pm

Dlogic wrote:1. Riding around with an unregistered vehicle.
2. For the taxes not payed for.
3. Endangering others.
4. The lack of insurance.
i'm not sure that you got informed correctly. most cops don't know a lot about laws so they repeat what everyone else thinks is true.
only 1) is really relevant regarding the stvo.
you won't be fined for 2) by the police. they would need to make an 'anzeige beim finanzamt' for that. and those guys need to fine you. if they will is unsure.
3) can only be fined if you endanger someone. it doesn't matter if you ride an overpowered bike. there is no endangerment just because it's overpowered. if you cross a red light you won't get a higher fine because the bike is over powered. but if you rush through traffic like crazy you may be fined.
for 4) i'm not 100% sure.
but for sure ppl here shit in their pants too much :) the only really thing to be concerned is having an accident and it was your fault. but even then it's only really bad if you hurt someone and get sued.
but you forgot 5) driving w/o license. if you got a motorbike license this doesn't apply of course.

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