Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by StudEbiker » Dec 06, 2015 5:20 pm

Looks good man. I am still working on my new one and ran into some interesting issues mounting a rear rack on the Bike E with rear suspension. My internet is not very good right now, but I'm hoping to improve it on Monday and be able to show some progress.

Mounting batties on these is definitely a challenge. I really hope you do the frame battery some day. I still have my old XL CT that has already had some modifications made to the fr a me so I am temted to cut a section out and weld in a real battery box. That is probably the best solution for battery placement, but that will have to wait awhile.

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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Cowardlyduck » Dec 08, 2015 8:35 pm

OUCH!!
Had a very scary accident this morning on my way to work.

I was going about 45kph up a slight incline on a straight section of bike path. My chain had slipped onto the smaller chain ring due to some bumps about 100m prior. As I often do, I was trying to guide it back onto the larger chain ring by hand while still riding. I use the chain tube as a guide and it usually takes quite a few tries as the chain will often overshoot the larger chain ring and start to come off the right hand side, so I have to back pedal to prevent it from completely falling off if that happens.

Well today, as this started to happen again, I came up behind another cyclist. As I went to veer right to overtake I think I must have let the chain come off a little too far, and it started dragging along the ground.
Just as I came up behind the other cyclist the chain dragged INTO THE REAR WHEEL. It got sucked around the rear tire, yanking my RHS pedal back with my foot clipped in. The chain only stopped when it ran into my rear brakes, then completely locked up the rear.
I wrestled with the bike as it fishtailed down to about 10kph where I lost control completely and went down on the right hand side. Somehow I ended up flipped over on my head/shoulder in a very awkward position that took a min to untangle myself from.
The cyclist ahead of me (lycra roadie) heard all the commotion and came back to help me. I was back on my feet reasonably quickly, and didn't have any immediately obvious injuries.
Looking at the bike, initially I was sure my rear tire was going to be deflated as the chain had wrapped itself so tightly over the tire it was squashing it down to the rim at the point where it had stopped on the rear brakes.
With a bit of effort the other cyclist and I were able to rotate the rear wheel backwards and free the chain.
Amazingly, the only damage to the bike (I've noticed so far) is a mangled chain tube end, slightly mangled and misaligned rear brakes, a graze on the side of the seat back support where the bike went down sidway's, and a potential flat spot on the tire from the 45-10kph skid.

Damage to me is mostly minimal with a bloodied nose bridge from my glasses being pushed into my face, a ripped/torn patch on the shoulder of my work shirt, and a bruised thigh.

I'm still very amazed the damage wasn't worse, as it was a terrifying moment to be cruising along perfectly straight and have the rear suddenly lock up like that. At least I did an epic skid. :P

To prevent it from happening again, I think I will remove some links from the chain (again) to make it tighter which should help prevent if falling off so easily. I will also endeavour to slow down a bit more before trying to sort out any future chain ring derailments. :roll:

Cheers
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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Chalo » Dec 08, 2015 9:28 pm

Don't cut your chain any shorter than the length required to go around the large ring and the largest sprocket, plus a little extra to get through the derailleur pulleys.

There's no reason to have your chain longer than this, either.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Cowardlyduck » Dec 08, 2015 9:48 pm

Chalo wrote:Don't cut your chain any shorter than the length required to go around the large ring and the largest sprocket, plus a little extra to get through the derailleur pulleys.

There's no reason to have your chain longer than this, either.
True, but I never have a need to run the higher rear gears (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 28-24-20T) with my 60T front chain ring.
I still have the original 46T front chain ring on the inside. In the event that I need to pedal without battery power and use the higher gears I will be dropping the front onto the 46T chain ring anyway.
This really allows the chain to be much shorter that it would otherwise be...as long as I am cautious never to force shift into the higher gears while still using the 60T up front. Although the shifter probably won't let me anyway with the tightness of the chain.
I already can't shift into 1st...so I'm only thinking of removing 2 links this time.

Cheers
High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled Leaf motor @ 5KW, Heat-sinked Adaptto Mini-E. Battery = 20AH, 72V LiPo.
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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Chalo » Dec 09, 2015 6:22 am

It's your chicken. Do as you like.

Understand, though, that if the chain is too short, a moment's inattention could easily tear the derailleur hanger off your frame. This is often followed by the free-hanging derailleur getting swallowed by the spokes, with messy but foreseeable results.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Cowardlyduck » Dec 09, 2015 5:08 pm

Chalo wrote:It's your chicken. Do as you like.

Understand, though, that if the chain is too short, a moment's inattention could easily tear the derailleur hanger off your frame. This is often followed by the free-hanging derailleur getting swallowed by the spokes, with messy but foreseeable results.
Thanks Chalo...appreciate your feedback.
I think 2 more links won't be a problem, but yes it is something to be wary of.
The other option is a chain tensioner...but I think before I bother with that I would try replacing the derailleur with one of the newer shadow tech one's that pull the chain tighter...that might help more.

Cheers
High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled Leaf motor @ 5KW, Heat-sinked Adaptto Mini-E. Battery = 20AH, 72V LiPo.
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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by StudEbiker » Dec 10, 2015 1:01 am

Glad you and the bike didn't suffer much damage. Sounds like an invigorating experience for sure!

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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Alan B » Dec 10, 2015 1:45 am

See, pedaling is a bad idea. All these problems come from pedaling. Just take that nasty dirty old chain off there, solves all those problems. :)

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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Cowardlyduck » Dec 14, 2015 5:42 am

Well that was a fail...I probably could have found out this wouldn't work by asking, but sometimes you just have to try things for yourself.

I bought a chain tensioner with the idea of making it squeeze the chain together and securing it with zip ties to the back end of the chain tube.
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Here's how I wanted it to work:
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Here's what it actually ends up doing after a few seconds of the chain moving:
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It also meant I couldn't really use 2nd or 3rd in the larger chain ring. :roll:
Thinking about it more now, I realise it was a stupid idea all along. :oops: :roll:

So that ain't gonna work! Back to removing a few chain links I think.

Cheers
High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled Leaf motor @ 5KW, Heat-sinked Adaptto Mini-E. Battery = 20AH, 72V LiPo.
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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Cowardlyduck » Dec 30, 2015 2:10 am

Went for the longest ride on my BikeE so far today. Just over 100km!
Here are the stats:
ImageImage
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There were some epic hills on the way. I was pulling over 1.2KW in Regen just coasting down some of them. :shock:
In order to make the distance I also used my backpack battery I put together from the remainder of my Zippy Compact cells. It's normally around 9Ah, but today (with Regen) I squeezed over 10.6Ah from it. Once it was drained to ~3.5V per cell I switched over to my normal battery...just before the half way point.

I stopped for lunch at the old Orroral Valley tracking station:
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It was an epic ride...leaving me with sore hips and butt. I found that if I sat more upright, my hips started to hurt after the first 40km. Sitting more relaxed and slouched, helped relive the hip pain, but then my butt started to go numb. By the time I got home, my hip was pretty sore, and my butt was numb...but it wasn't too bad relatively speaking.

I also had a few terrifying moments on the ride...nearly hitting several Kangaroo's, and braving one of the gnarliest cattle grids I've ever seen. The cattle grid had rounded bars with a good 1-2 inch gap between them and a raised square border. I made it across relatively unscathed the first time, but on the way back I failed to realise the raised border was far higher on the opposite side to which I came. Both front and rear tires smacked down to the rim as I hit it at 35kph...I was sure my rear would be pinch flatted, but somehow it was ok. I think the tube double layered inside the rear tire definitely contributed to saving it...that's exactly the reason I did it. :)

Cheers
High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled Leaf motor @ 5KW, Heat-sinked Adaptto Mini-E. Battery = 20AH, 72V LiPo.
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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by IanM » Dec 30, 2015 2:41 am

Wow cd that sure was an epic ride, nice pics.

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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Chalo » Dec 30, 2015 4:32 am

Epic rides require pedal power. My longest one day ride was 170 miles, no power assist. Second place, 135 miles.

So far, e-assist can't go the distance with human power.
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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Cowardlyduck » Dec 30, 2015 6:26 am

Chalo wrote:Epic rides require pedal power. My longest one day ride was 170 miles, no power assist. Second place, 135 miles.

So far, e-assist can't go the distance with human power.
This is true...but as you eluded, this is only the current state of technology.
I think that within the next 5 years we will see the tipping point where battery energy density reaches a point that makes it possible to match the average 'fit' cyclist range of 150-300km per day on road.
Even now, it's possible with 2-3KW on a recumbent to make 200km+ at the same speed as a super fit cyclist.

I'm still planning my long 18650 battery to slide inside the frame of this bike. I should be able to fit about 750Wh inside the forward section of the frame if I use the newer 3500mah cells.
For longer rides, if I add the entire pack I used today, I could possibly make 200km at a slower pace or on flatter ground, but that would be a bit tortures on my butt/hips I think. :lol:

Once 18650 cells reach 4500mah I think you will see the tipping point...IMO. :)

Cheers
High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled Leaf motor @ 5KW, Heat-sinked Adaptto Mini-E. Battery = 20AH, 72V LiPo.
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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Alan B » Dec 30, 2015 8:35 am

For a long ride, 200W times ten hours is 2kWh. My CroBorg pack is about that, at 25 pounds or so. IF that pack were on the BikeE it should getting into the range.

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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Chalo » Dec 30, 2015 4:30 pm

eTrike wrote:That ride did include pedal power, eh? Surely human+electric is better than human alone?
Up to a point, sure. But there comes a threshold where you spend more pedal energy carrying the extra weight and drag of the e-bike than its electric system will give you on one charge.

I had a buddy in Seattle who began a hilly 20 miles each way commute on a Charger e-bike that could just do the distance with help at the pedals. After he got used to the physical activity, he discovered that it wasn't harder work, or slower, to do the same commute on a road bike. So he abandoned the e-bike and switched over to pedal power.

Now, e-bikes are much more capable than what he was stuck with back then, but at some distance any of us could observe the same phenomenon. The more capable the e-bike and the less capable the rider, the longer that distance will be.
Interesting to note the efficiency benefits of a recumbent bike.
Some recumbents are more efficient than upright bikes and some aren't. The BikeE isn't. It rides relatively high and has a "bluff" upright seating position. It uses small diameter wheels that incur extra rolling resistance and bump losses.
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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Lurkin » Dec 30, 2015 4:38 pm

Chalo wrote:Epic rides require pedal power. My longest one day ride was 170 miles, no power assist. Second place, 135 miles.

So far, e-assist can't go the distance with human power.
Or just requires a sneaky fast charge at the food stops.....

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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Cowardlyduck » Dec 30, 2015 8:38 pm

Some interesting points. :)

Yes I was pedalling constantly the whole way. I am not unfit, so do contribute a fair share of the power...at a guess I would average about 100-150W.
The difference between just doing it on a regular bike though is I was able to contribute that 100-150W continuously and comfortably the whole time without really breaking much of a sweat.
There's no way I could have done that at 30kph+ average speed on a 31 Celsius day on a regular bike without it leaving me very sore and aching.
The joy of doing this sort of thing on an E-Bike is that I can enjoy the scenery, and explore new places at distances that would normally be out of reach within the 3.5hours this took me on my E-Bike.
If I were to tackle this kind of ride on a normal bike (and I have done similar in the past), I would need 3-4hours each way to cope with the hills and heat. Doable, but not enjoyable for me.

The aero of the Bike-E isn't comparable to most other recumbent's sure, but it's still a good deal better than a regular position city or mountain bike. I see half the wind resistance on my BikeE compared to my Stealth Fighter which was my previous commuting E-Bike.
The rolling resistance of the smaller wheels is more noticeable at higher speeds, but I've set up the cruising speed for my Bike-E at ~40kph with boost (120% throttle) at 50kph. At 40kph, I don't think the rolling resistance is really much more than a regular bike with 26" wheels. Keep in mind I build my own front wheel using a Shimano 105 hub and light weight rim. I also built the rear, but the hub motor add's a bit of drag...especially at 45kph+. I want to change out the bearings at some stage in the future to help with this.
eTrike wrote:Is that the next evolution for CD's BikeE? :wink: :wink:
The next change on this bike will be the battery. I plan to make a pack I can slide inside the main frame.
As far as further aero changes, I was thinking of adding another small solar panel to the front. Currently I can feel a lot of air being sucked under the bottom lip of the solar panel. The new one would be positioned more horizontal to allow for pedalling clearance and sit beneath the current one. My thinking is it would channel most of the frontal air up and over the panels instead of under the current one.
What do others think?

Cheers
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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Chalo » Dec 30, 2015 9:26 pm

Rolling resistance is a significant factor at low speeds, but it's a constant force independent of speed. Aero drag rises sharply with speed, so the faster you go, the smaller the portion of total energy is being spent on rolling resistance. Bump energy losses increase with velocity, but not uniformly. And of course they are limited by the rider's willingness to tolerate shocks.

Because they are subject to surface conditions and riding style, it's hard to generalize about rolling losses, except to identify factors that cause them to increase or decrease.
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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Cowardlyduck » Dec 30, 2015 9:58 pm

Thanks Chalo.
I didn't know that about rolling resistance...had always assumed it increased with speed as bearings heated up etc.

I definitely need to work on reducing drag though. I think my brakes lightly rub, my mud guards sometimes rub, and my rear derailleur sounds like a distant gattling gun in 7th.
If I lift the wheels and spin them by hand, they don't stop quickly, but I do think improvements could still be made.

Also, looking at how I would need to position another front solar panel to clear my pedalling, I don't know that it would actually be very practical as I would need to position it way out in front past the half way point of the front wheel. It might be possible, but it would require some long stand-off connections which would be quite flimsy. Given for me it's a matter of when, not if, I have my next crash, I think I might give it a miss.

Cheers
High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled Leaf motor @ 5KW, Heat-sinked Adaptto Mini-E. Battery = 20AH, 72V LiPo.
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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Cowardlyduck » Feb 21, 2016 2:10 am

Tried out a new kids trailer and took the kids (and my) RC car's out for a spin today. :)
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It was interesting to see, power usage only went up about 25% over normal. The trailer tires were pretty low, I could hear a few things (mudguard I think) rubbing, and I barely pedalled so I think I could get that down to 20% easy if I tried.

The trailer mount let go a couple of times (thank God for the safety strap). In the end I found the best way to attach it was with it tightly wrapped with a Jockey strap since the bolt could not be tightened any further. :roll:

I'm making some good progress on getting my substitute ride up and running, so I should soon be able to start the work required to remove the rear stay's and get accurate measurements to start the battery build for inside the frame soon.

On another note, I've lost count now of the number if times this has happened:
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As you can see, I've already stitched it back up before....about 4-5 times now.

This is the other side which hasn't failed again as yet, but probably will soon enough.
Image

Does anyone have any suggestions for how I can more permanently repair the fabric and stop the seat tube poking through again?

Cheers
High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled Leaf motor @ 5KW, Heat-sinked Adaptto Mini-E. Battery = 20AH, 72V LiPo.
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BikeE recumbent commuter - Golden motor, 6Fet Infineon, 20AH 12S LiPo, with on-board solar charging.

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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Cowardlyduck » Mar 11, 2016 6:18 am

So I decided to finally bite the bullet and tackle the job of removing my rear stays and replacing the rivets with bolts this weekend.
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So far I'm off to a reasonably good start and tonight I managed to successfully disassemble everything necessary and drilled out the rivets without issue. :) I was pleased to discover no damage or cracks at all. I was mentally preparing myself for the worst since the way I ride and some of the bumps/holes I've hit over the last year and a half since riding this bike have been massive.

I started off by drilling out the centre of the rivets with a 4mm bit;
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Once I could see I would need to go bigger I swapped over to a 6mm bit and drilled some more till the caps fell off and the backs of the rivets fell into the frame;
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This turned out to be the correct size and it turns out the holes are all 6mm which should be an easy size to find bolts for at the local hardware store this weekend.
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I was interested to discover the rivets are actually aluminium, but I don't think it will be a problem replacing them with steel bolts.
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I intend to try and find M6x10 or M6x12 bolts and some nylock nuts. If they don't have any nylock nuts, I might get M6x15 and use 2 nuts to lock them together.

Tomorrow I will try and fish the wire padding out of the frame and make a mock up battery to see how it fits down the frame length;
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That is, if I can push a mock battery past all the wires/cables. I don't want to remove/cut any wires yet, so if I can't test fit the mock battery with them still in place, I will just take rough length, height width measurements. It's mainly the length I'm worried about as I already know I can fit the battery height/width wise.

I also took a bunch of measurements of the holes, frame and rear stay thickness for those interested:
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Round these up/down as my calliper holding while photo taking ability is not great. :lol:

I also contemplating drilling and adding a few extra holes/bolts as it can't hurt. I can always do that when I next remove it all again to mount the battery also so may not do it this time around.

I hope to be able to continue riding to/from work next week, so hopefully I can get it all back together and working again before then. :)

Cheers
High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled Leaf motor @ 5KW, Heat-sinked Adaptto Mini-E. Battery = 20AH, 72V LiPo.
Cowardlyducks - Stealth Fighter Videos

BikeE recumbent commuter - Golden motor, 6Fet Infineon, 20AH 12S LiPo, with on-board solar charging.

BLAKE'S BUILDS - The stuff I make and modify.

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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Cowardlyduck » Mar 11, 2016 7:04 am

Actually on second thoughts, looking at my measurements, I think I might be better off going with 1/4" bolts as they are 6.35mm and should be a more snug fit.
The last thing I want is some play in these bolt holes.

***EDIT***
Having a quick look around the net, I can't actually see barely any 1/4" bolts...at least locally. What does everyone think? Will M6 actually be ok?
Keep in mind there is a lot of compressive force once these are tight, so I don't think the risk of things moving around is super high...but I really don't know.

Cheers
High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled Leaf motor @ 5KW, Heat-sinked Adaptto Mini-E. Battery = 20AH, 72V LiPo.
Cowardlyducks - Stealth Fighter Videos

BikeE recumbent commuter - Golden motor, 6Fet Infineon, 20AH 12S LiPo, with on-board solar charging.

BLAKE'S BUILDS - The stuff I make and modify.

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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Alan B » Mar 11, 2016 11:13 am

Nice work. That's on my list to do at some point. When I get to the internal battery pack project.

Nylock nuts are going to be very difficult to install and remove.

I would suggest making an aluminum "U" to just fit inside the channel and installing "T" nuts into that to line up with the holes. Make this "U" part of your internal battery pack, perhaps make it the full length of the pack. Then slide it in and bolt it down. Very secure mounting for the pack.

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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Cowardlyduck » Mar 12, 2016 1:18 am

Thanks for the replies guy's. :)
Thanks for the info on galvanic corrosion...I'm not sure I need to worry about it though. What was the concern there?

Looking down the length of my frame I could see I still had a foam wire cover stuck in there, and it was so far down nothing I had on hand would be able to get it out. So this came home with me from the local hardware store:
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It was a bit of a wrestle but eventually I got it out.

I also noticed the inside of the frame was filthy, not surprisingly after more than a decade of use:
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So I rigged up a 'cleaning brush' using wet wipes tied to my new grabber:
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That cleaned out most of the old dirt/dust...clean enough. :roll:

I made up my mock battery, but because of the wires and cables still in the frame (which I don't want to remove at this point) I couldn't slide it down to the bottom bracket to fully test the length.
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True to my original estimates this box was 580x35x70mm.

So instead I cut a single length of cardboard the roughly the same height and slide it down one side avoiding the wires/cables:
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It turns out from the bottom bracket to the outside of the first bolt of the rear stay is about 615mm. To factor in a buffer I would say the most anyone should make anything to slide inside the frame would be 610mm.

This is just as well, as a re-measuring of my intended 5P 12S 18650 pack turns out to actually need 605x35x70mm.
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This is just a mock up 5P group as I don't yet have the cells to make the battery.
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The local hardware store actually did end up having some 1/4" x 3/4" UNF bolts when I looked today, so I went with those and some washers to take up some of the extra 3/4" length. These are high tensile zinc plated bolts.
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I put the bolt heads on the inside to reduce the risk of any wires getting snagged or ripped when I slide them in/out. Since I mount my controller inside the rear tail slot and pull most of the wires through this area when mounting, it's important for me to remove any sharp snags in this area.
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Getting the 1/4" diameter bolts turned out to be a good move as they fit well and there doesn't seem to be any movement. I don't know if this would be the case with M6 bolts.
Obviously the bolts I used are a bit too long, and I plan to order some shorter stainless steel bolts soon, but I won't change them over till I pull everything apart again to install the frame battery so in the mean time I might get some dome caps for these bolts so I don't rip my legs open on them.

I've still got to finish putting everything back together, but so far mission accomplished and I now know that it should be possible to make this frame battery thing work. :)

Cheers
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Alan B
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Re: Cowardlyducks Commuter Build - E-bikeE

Post by Alan B » Mar 12, 2016 12:12 pm

Nice!

The concern with galvanic corrosion is aluminum vs stainless bolts can cause it. (I didn't suggest this concern, but it is a real one). The dissimilar metals create a battery that makes voltage which promotes rapid corrosion and failure. It is a common issue with aluminum and steel combinations.

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