84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

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mikereidis
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84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

Post by mikereidis » Sep 02, 2008 3:06 am

My ATP Vision R40 recumbent project https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... &sk=t&sd=a was suffering from issues: handling, hills, battery space/interference with under seat steering, tire mismatches, LRR tires without adhesion, brake problems. :(

Note first 4 light switches right where under seat steering wants to go to steer more than 10 degrees or whatever...
bikedmtn 001.jpg
I bought a kids mountain type bike for my 6 yr old son for $15 at Salvation Army but he's 1-2 years too small for it, so I put everything on this 20" wheel bike. :)
bikedcacrave 010.jpg
It's a "Triumph Rave". I've seen a few selling used for $50-70. Apparently Costco sold them in Canada. Probably made by Raleigh who bought the old Triumph Bike name decades ago. Made in Canada. Seems solid, all steel, 2" knobby tires, Shimano RevoShift 6 speed, Very good brakes, much better than my -bent. A bit of rust, but otherwise fine. I suspect some kid left it outside most of the time and rarely rode it.

Unless I find a good way to at least make handlebar more comfortable, this is just a "prototype" for the adult (24 or 26" ?) mountain type/off road capable bike project I want to do.

With my new comfortable (for ebiking, not long periods pedalling) Shwinn seat installed most of the way up, I can pedal half decently, but arms and handlebar aren't happy. So I put seat back down, which makes me a bit more aero, and my legs go into a tuck and it works OK, but NOT for pedalling. I find it easier to kick the pavement a few times to get to 7 KMH to get pedal first going. Need instant start. And I WONT be happy if I ever have to pedal home, though I could raise seat to help. I CAN pedal, but it helps much if I stand or sit back on or over seat.

Here's the latest converted view from above. 0 amps are flowing and 82.9 volts is showing on the https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... &start=195 Canadian Tire YardWorks battery pack made from eight 20v, 6ah batts, total about 960wh, about $1k all told with taxes. Gave me 80 KM of range on recumbent but I'm getting a good deal less on this bike. Bike light is a $30 Stanley Flashlight that bends etc and uses 3/6 or 9 AAs. Got last year or two and it's the BEST cheap bike light I've tried yet. MUCH better lighting on the dark bike paths for my night runs, and helps big time on pothole patrol.
bikedmtn 010.jpg
Side view:
bikedmtn 011.jpg
Closer view of cockpit:
bikedmtn 012.jpg
I changed my ampmeter and voltmeter to these $8.74 clearance (orig $35) Canadian Tire pocket DMMs that only do limited ranges of voltage, resistance and diode test. I converted left meter volt function to amp-meter with a resistor/shunt made of 2 parallel pieces of hanging wire. Seemed to have about 10 milliohms of resistance. Only gives me 1 amp of resolution, but OK for now.

Not visible at front are two light switches for every pair of batteries. I can switch 1s-4s on the fly, for running, charging or discharge testing. I have 8 batteries in two banks, but can switch pretty flexibly. Works well; at current 2 batts are having BMS overheat issues, and I can switch them in or out on the fly depending on uphill/downhill... :)

At back, first switch is to power XLyte 72v, 20a, PF controller, When switch 1 down, batt goes to very basic, manually switch and dimmer operated, charger integrated into bike.

When switch 2 is on, batteries are charged. Which batts depends on same 8 front switches that reconfigure batts/banks.

When switch 3 is on, discharge testing is possible, using outlet at right.

Voltmeter always shows battery pack voltage (depending on front switches). Ampmeter shows positive when charging and negative when running or discharge testing.

Not shown is old computer power supply box switches and outlet are mounted in. I used original power input for PC power supply to provide 120vac to charger. So to charge, I plug a standard computer 120vac power plug into bike, and my "load center" power bar to the outlet shown. Power goes through diodes, the variable load, switches etc, and into the batts. I monitor voltage and current and manually switch loads down when voltage rises to about 21v per battery. I can do series charging but have to be careful to make sure voltages are balanced.

Discharge testing doesn't use 120vac but uses the same load center and meters to get data to determine battery capacities etc.

With a portable load, like a cheap $20 3 pound heater, and a PC power cord, I can recharge from any place with a 120vac outlet. :) I can charge at rates up to 2c, or about 12 amps, but full charge takes about an hour, or less, with manual fiddling of current.

Here's bike at charging station: 2 amps at 84v:
bikedmtn 015.jpg
Here is the charging station / load center :
bikedmtn 014.jpg
At left is big scroll fan to push air through heaters at lower voltage (40v ac) so they won't trip or burn. Main loads are two heaters: $25 ceramic and $20 cheapie. They both have 2 heat settings and 1 fan setting and helps me moderate larger currents at start of charging. 400 watts of light bulbs connected to 5a dimmer helps control lower currents and lets me keep manual "constant 21v per batt voltage", or a bit less, to be safer.


I really like the mountain type bike based ebike. Full suspension, big wide knobby tires, etc. I'm going down roads and paths now I would have avoided before. I've had 3, almost 4 flats in last 4 weeks. First 3 flats of my adult, and even most of my youth life. (!!) I wonder how well these kid bike tires and tubes will last ? I wouldn't be surprised if they're much more resistant than the high pressure tires I've been running. Next flat, I'm going full-on high rolling resistance, puncture proof/resistant tires and tubes.

Gee, possibly close to $2k (with Cdn taxes) of stuff on this "$15" kids bike now. :) Bet that kid would want it back now ! :)

On the recumbent, people often didn't notice it's an ebike. On this bike, lots more people notice, when they see my bunched up legs aren't moving, they usually figure there's some other power source. I ring the little bell when I get people yelling what seems to be positive stuff; like the high-school girls at the bus stop last night. (Yeah, I wrote bust and backspaced the T.)

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Re: 84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

Post by lepton » Sep 02, 2008 11:25 am

Thanks for the pictures and information! How wide is your setup, and is it too wide to pedal?

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Re: 84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

Post by TylerDurden » Sep 02, 2008 11:42 am

Nice!
mikereidis wrote: Unless I find a good way to at least make handlebar more comfortable, this is just a "prototype" for the adult (24 or 26" ?) mountain type/off road capable bike project I want to do.
Ja, riding a juvie is a pain, but the size is handy. A fs folder might be a good option.
Have a Nice Day,

TD

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Re: 84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

Post by mikereidis » Sep 02, 2008 1:39 pm

lepton wrote:Thanks for the pictures and information! How wide is your setup, and is it too wide to pedal?
A bit more than the width of two batteries, or about 9-9.5" at top for first four batts. At bottom four batts it's about 10" because the frame gets in the way. I wouldn't want it wider; it's "snug" at present. Feels like a gas tank between my legs. God forbid the Lithium batts should erupt/explode in flames... :shock: But I have all the kids I need (but still value those parts VERY highly) and LiMn seems pretty stable.

So width isn't a noticeable issue when pedalling, but inseam length definitely is. I have to get higher than the seat to peddle half decently.

Tyler:
>Ja, riding a juvie is a pain, but the size is handy. A fs folder might be a good option.

Yep; was easy to put this bike in wife's trunk last night; although it stuck out a bit. Portability/transportability isn't my primary concern, but is quite useful. At work I can bring my bike up elevator and the smaller the better, particularly at present bike weight of 83 pounds !


BTW, top batts are secured on frame, bottom on 2 small tiny "shelves" I hacked together from wood and tie-wraps. Gravity secures them OK for working on, but all held together with 4 8 foot long multiple wrapped tie down straps with buckles. Then wrapped in plastic to make it look a bit better and more water resistant. Then wrapped in "special material" secured with a few belts :) because plastic and clear tape looked awful. "Special material" is cut from a lawnmower collection bag I will never use. Looks half decent IMO for a "spare parts in garage" wrapping.

I HAD some issues with pedals rubbing on the bottom battery areas. A bit of wire re-routing and another wire wrapped at back there to tighten "special material cover" worked OK, but pedals can still rub a bit if they are vertical when rotating near there.

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Re: 84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

Post by mikereidis » Sep 03, 2008 9:22 am

Pic of my bike in "outdoor charge equipment mode":
bikehtr 001.jpg
That's a $20, 3 pound, 1500/750 watt heater on the back I use as a big power resistor for 120vac charging. I got 15 minutes of 2.5amp charging before inductive kickback blew the breaker when I switched off charger to check voltages. Will try $25 ceramic heater next time, but it's about 4 pounds weight.

I added bar ends, with thumb throttle on right, and raised seat to almost max and my knees, wrists and back are thanking me this morning. Maybe I don't need "adult" mtn bike.

Horse saddle in middle would be cool if they didn't weigh a lot. I'd like to have "stirrups" to hang my feet in, instead of resting my legs a bit more bent than they should be on pedals. Letting feet hang is "OK", but tiring.

Putting feet on front axle ends works well for comfort. Been considering something like BMX pegs if I can find some at 12 mm (?). Concerned that this is a bad place to put extra stress from even a few pounds of feet.

In garage, I tested a "recumbent mode" with both my legs on top of handlebars. Hmmm, seemed to feel OK. Not sure how well I could control in the real, traffic filled world. Could maybe steer with legs ? And throttle ? :) Tried one leg on bars while on my run and not too bad, but didn't have the guts to try both legs late at night.

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Re: 84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

Post by tropmonky » Sep 03, 2008 12:31 pm

Nice move on the new bike... I was thinking a boys 24inch wheel mtn bike would make for a good conversion. The smaller the bike the more maneuverable.

Now you just need a rocket pack to help get you moving from 0mph, LOL.

Kyle

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Re: 84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

Post by mikereidis » Sep 03, 2008 2:43 pm

tropmonky wrote:Nice move on the new bike... I was thinking a boys 24inch wheel mtn bike would make for a good conversion. The smaller the bike the more maneuverable.

Now you just need a rocket pack to help get you moving from 0mph, LOL.

Kyle
Thanks Kyle. Well then maybe I don't need a bigger bike. As long as I can make my knees, wrists, arms and back happy with seat, handlebar etc. mods. Full suspension would be nice though, beefy enough to handle my weight (173 today; about as much as a "fat kid" this bike was probably designed to handle) and extra 50+ pounds of ebike battery and motor weight.

I think all that unsprung motor weight is probably killing those poor front shocks. Of course my wife is like most who figure an adult on a kids bike just isn't safe. I suspect it's OK, though pushing the limits. I try not to "bash/abuse" the bike like most kids would.

I'm going to try an instant start mod for my controller tonight. All hall connections seem to be there on board.

For rocket pack, my "charging heater" on back looks sorta like. Could mod to cool looking hair dryer. Or mount a rechargable leaf blower, perhaps the one (of 5 things) these batteries are actually built for.

Had a Gatineau, Quebec cop give me a REALLY good looking over, from behind and ahead on Chemin de la Montagne going towards Notch Rd last night about 1:00 AM. I was doing only 15 KMH up a 4-5% or so incline to save batteries. He left me once I guess he determined there weren't any laws I was visibly breaking, and wasn't an undue threat to myself or others.

Thankfully I had just "installed" my "Legal in Canada" label, cut from a $1400 Chinese e-bike sellers pamphlet. AFAIK, I'm the manufacturer so this is completely legitimate, other than my "off road only" switches which raise the power "slightly" over the legal 500w maximum. Hmmm, haven't actually checked SAAQ (Quebec transportation ministry) website yet to see what they say about ebikes, but I think they are OK here. Many laws here in French only, and I'm mostly unilingual, and my francophone wife has difficulty translating legal jargon, so I almost don't bother checking Gov't of Quebec websites lately.

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Re: 84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

Post by tropmonky » Sep 03, 2008 3:32 pm



You just don't want the bike cracking in half like this video... Believe me, this video makes me look at my project in a different light!

just imagine it being pavement!!!

Kyle

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Re: 84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

Post by mikereidis » Sep 03, 2008 5:47 pm

tropmonky wrote:

You just don't want the bike cracking in half like this video... Believe me, this video makes me look at my project in a different light!

just imagine it being pavement!!!

Kyle
No I don't... :shock: I CAN imagine pavement, but my mind edits out the gory, bloody, scream of pain parts.

Seriously, if you or anyone thinks my riding this bike is unduly unsafe, please speak up. My limbs and other body parts are worth at least the cost of 5 new, fully decked out adult mountain bikes. Not trying to save money here at the cost of undue risk.

My impression was that bikes like this, full of heavy, thick steel to take kid beating levels, are as safe as, or safer than many adult bikes. Main safety issues have to do with size and pedalling etc. AFAIK.


It took me a few minutes to realize my hands are on the bar ends, and my brakes are on the handlebar. Takes a small bit of time to move my hands there. On scary downhills I lean into a more aero bent to grab the bars close to the brakes. Good if I want to go faster downhill anyway... :) I may keep brakes on bars for that reason. Will put an electric brake switch for front hub on bar ends though.

Sure is scarier going downhill at 30 MPH head first, versus feet first on my recumbent. Motor is whizzing and I always check the throttle to make sure it's not stuck on. :shock:

I don't recall EVER going over handlebars in my bike riding youth from 5-16. (Maybe almost once.) On my recumbent I've slid off trails and hit trees/brush feet first a few times with only a scratch or two. Also wiped out and fallen to the right a few times, but it's only about 2.5-3 feet down to the ground on recumbent.

I'm considering a full motorcycle type helmet now; Do adults wear elbow and knee pads these days ? In the last 3 weeks or so I've been ebiking, I've never yet NEEDED the gloves, or "kneeling pad" knee pads, or helmet, or the light leather jacket I wear, though they all help keep me a bit warmer at night. But I (and my wife, I'm sure!) certainly feel more secure. Never even wore a helmet before.

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Re: 84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

Post by tropmonky » Sep 03, 2008 6:02 pm

A helmet when riding a ebike should be a must... the other items I'm not too sure about.

One thing to consider, the bike is only as strong as it's weakest component. The steel frame may be just fine, but the cheapo rims could taco, or the spokes pop out when going 30+MPH.

The main worries for me are the rims/spokes.. This is just my personal opinion. Frames rarely go out like in the video, I've never seen one do that, but have seen frame cracks and bends. I have seen rims completely destroy themselves, taco, crack ect.

This is why the first thing I did on my new ebike build was to replace the rims/tires with something stronger.

It's really easy to find beefy BMX rims, you may want to look into getting a set you know are strong. Another thing about going with smaller rims is they smaller the rim the less likely they are to taco/flat spot.

Kyle

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Re: 84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

Post by ngocthach1130 » Sep 08, 2008 3:26 pm

Hehe, i like how you have the heater in the back. You got butt warmer.
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Re: 84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

Post by mikereidis » Sep 10, 2008 8:33 am

ngocthach1130 wrote:Hehe, i like how you have the heater in the back. You got butt warmer.
:mrgreen: Yeah, and batts between legs are legs and crotch warmers... It's relatively safe Lithium Manganese and I've already had my allocation of 2 kids, so I'm not too concerned.

I was having BMS issues with these "weaker than gas, grass trimmer batteries". Should be good for 31 amps but I think I fried some by overcharging and they were cutting out too quick. So I removed the batteries/cells from case and disconnected the BMSs. Planning to build my own, better BMS, but they work fine without one, if you are careful.

Cells instead of batts in cases saves me half the volume. Each 18.5v nominal, 6ah batt takes 1200 cm^3 volume, but cells only take half that. I also save about 30% of weight in batts. Looks tiny now compared to before.

Performance feels noticably better. I get 19 amps now on my 20a controller; before I only had 18a. Once I replace the batts with perfect ones that aren't bulged, I think I may get full 20a controller rating, and better range.

With bar ends on bar ends and a higher seat I feel almost normal at 5',11" on this "kids bike". I need a comfier bench or bucket type seat; this seat isn't bad, but the indendations are too small for my butt. :) And my butt isn't THAT big at only 170 pounds total body with clothes (this week).

I also want to get some real horse type leather stirrups if I can find some that don't weigh too much. I think they'd be ideal place for resting feet without crunching legs at all as I do on pedals (which is not bad now; my knees don't hurt anymore).

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Re: 84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

Post by Ypedal » Sep 10, 2008 10:34 am

lmao.. I know the feeling.. ( bmx with X5 !! ) Try adjusting the handlebars as forward as you can, it helps ! :wink:
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Re: 84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

Post by mikereidis » Sep 11, 2008 1:49 pm

Ypedal wrote:lmao.. I know the feeling.. ( bmx with X5 !! ) Try adjusting the handlebars as forward as you can, it helps ! :wink:

Hmmm, I like them as far back as possible, but higher too. Sort of laid-back chopper style. This way I can lean back/recline and my back feels better. Maybe a "banana seat", like the bikes in my 1970's youth. :) But would require another seat mounting point.

Will post some new pics when I get all 8 batts converted to cells without BMS and make it look "prettier". Hope to have that done by weekend for a hoped meetup/ride with Justin, nutsandvolts and whomever else.

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Re: 84v, 20a, 960wh, X404 20" youth mtn bike :) :)

Post by mikereidis » Sep 23, 2008 6:11 pm

mikereidis wrote:
Ypedal wrote:lmao.. I know the feeling.. ( bmx with X5 !! ) Try adjusting the handlebars as forward as you can, it helps ! :wink:

Hmmm, I like them as far back as possible, but higher too. Sort of laid-back chopper style. This way I can lean back/recline and my back feels better. Maybe a "banana seat", like the bikes in my 1970's youth. :) But would require another seat mounting point.

Will post some new pics when I get all 8 batts converted to cells without BMS and make it look "prettier". Hope to have that done by weekend for a hoped meetup/ride with Justin, nutsandvolts and whomever else.

Hmm, "as forward as you can" based on the assumption that I tuck into aero position ? I don't usually tuck; I prefer comfort and lack of back/neck pain to aero, except in speed tests and down "Wheee!" hills.

Meet the latest addition to the bike fleet:
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Yes, it's a virtually identical "kids bike". Two, two, two bikes in one... :)

Saw it for $10 at local Sally Ann I got the first one at. Like it so much I bought two; but $10 for good shape spare parts is cheap.

But, but, I can't help but think of wild ideas. Like 2 bikes connected to make a 4 wheeler, either tandem or sociable (side by side). :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

With side by side I'd have to take corners on 2 wheels, unless I used some hinges or U-Joints or somesuch on bars connecting the two bikes. Throw a fairing/roof on the contraption and I'd have a small, light, rather funny looking e-car to take the whole family on dangerous outings... :)

Closer shot:
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Front shots:
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Rear:
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My new $12 (discontinued sale), 24 LED, 1.5 watt stock, currently 3.6 watt LED bike light. I got 5 of these and will be upping current until LEDs start burning, then cutting back to see how much light I can get. Definitely need at least 1 of these for good night riding light; 4 more will hopefully get me more respect from cars who leave their high beams on me at night, which prevents me from seeing potholes etc.
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