Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360 UPDATED

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pjgold   100 W

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Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360 UPDATED

Post by pjgold » Dec 22 2014 5:24am

UPDATED

Well I'm back to work and that means back to real world commuting. I have now been commuting daily to work and back for about 2 years by e-bike and pretty much know every inch of the road, every hill and every gear I need to be in before I get there.

So switch from a IGH to the Nuvinci has been very interesting.

First some more details of my bike and my riding style for those that might use this post when looking at the Nuvinci hub.

I am running a BBS02 750w on my Focus which runs 700c 38mm tyres. The full rig bike, battery, motor and hub weighs in at 24kg
Battery is a em3EV 11.0 AH frame pack with the Samsung 29e cells (note this is no longer recommended for the BBS02 750w)
I am 6'3" and weigh in at 100kg with my change of clothes and a cut lunch.

My BBS02 is detuned and set with a limit of 18 amp for longevity and to protect the battery, further to this other settings actually limit the amps to about 16 amps max at the highest assist setting.

My riding is the same as riding a regular bike meaning that I like to pedal. The throttle is not installed. My commute is 45km round trip across Brisbane which includes both long section of flat and some significant hills. I ride with an assist level of 30% for my entire commute which equates to 250w at a nominal 46v. This may not sound like much assist but allows me to commute at speeds in the high 30's to 40kph.

On to my finding using the Nuvinci firstly the good.
I absolutely love the shifting it is perfectly suited to a modest powered mid drive and it transforms the bikes usability immensely. There is no need to cut the power even on my steepest climb, no stop pedal shifting or the need to worry about timing to get the gears to change smoothly.
It is very intuitive and you get a feel for how much to adjust on the given terrain very quickly. I have not felt any hint of slipping and the hub feels solid even while shifting. After a while shifting becomes more or less automatic and you don't even notice you are adjusting it.
Today was my fastest commute time to date covering my trip to work 22.5km in 43 minutes, average speed is 31.4kph including traffic lights and traffic etc.
The gearing range is good with a little more range than the Alfine 8.

On to the bad.
The million dollar question what about the efficiency? No it is not as efficient as the Alfine and the difference is noticeable on hill climbing when the drive is under the most load. It is also very apparent at the end of my commute as the battery has significantly more drain. There are no real published figures on its efficiency but the best estimates I could find on the net say its about 85% compared to 92% for the Alfine I would say that that figure seems about right. In real world term that means I'm giving up around 15w of assist by using this hub at the exact same settings for my commute. My legs do feel the difference but I still can't decide if it all hub or some Christmas cheer. Of course on and e-bike you can just push assist setting up 1 to compensate for it.
Its interesting to note that despite the fact that it isn't as efficient I did achieve my best overall time with it so there is definitely gain in being in the right gear all the time, my legs certainly notice that as well or is that also Christmas cheer.
I does add a little more overall bike weight but realistically this is not so significant for an e-bike and not even 1% for the total combined weight of me and the bike.
I suspect the gear range is a bit lower than stated however still more than the Alfine, I have changed the gearing to a 18t as I found I was riding a lot a full overdrive initially.
The cost there is no getting around that these hubs are expensive.

To sum it up
If you want maximum power and hill climbing ability but not necessarily the best overall speed then stick with a derailleur.
If you a pushed for battery range then this is not the best choice for you.
If you looking for ease of use and your bike has enough power and range then a Nuvinci is the way to go.

I hope this helps anyone looking at the Nuvinci for their build.


Original post
Hi all,

I have been commuting regularly on my Focus equipped with a BBS02 750w.
This original bike had an Alfine 8 IGH which has served me well for about 5000km.
However it has always not been quite right given that it can not change under load which meant a pedal stop or throttle dead band to change, both work fine but everyday commuting it does become a pain. After a couple of slipped gears under high load it was enough that I lost confidence as was reluctant to stand up a crank for the steeper hills.

After finding out as much as I could about the Nuvinci 360, I now have this all set up and after a few test rides its ready for real commuting.

I chose to do this change over myself as I have never built my own wheel and I thought it would be a nice challenge plus I am on holidays so there is no urgency.
All up I had to change change quite a few things to get it set up ready to go.

Nuvinci 360 hub
New spokes
44T chain ring to correct the gearing for the Nuvinci
20T sprocket rather that the 18T that the hub came with.
New full length cable outers.
New chain
New grips to work with the different shifter

I also took the opportunity to remove the throttle altogether as I should no no longer need it.

Test rides feel good with the hub shifting easily under load however you do notice that the shift does get heavier the more you load it. That said it is when shifting up so not really an issue as generally when its loaded you are shifting down. I haven't managed to get it to slip or even give me a hint that it might.

Only time will tell how it goes with long term use but hopefully it will be the answer, it does at the moment feel like its the perfect match for a moderate powered mid drive.
I will follow up with my finding after I have a good amount of K's on it, for anyone else considering trying a Nuvinci 360.

These are the pics of my bike.

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cheers
Last edited by pjgold on Jan 07 2015 5:21am, edited 1 time in total.

Avitt   100 W

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360

Post by Avitt » Dec 22 2014 2:45pm

Really nice build! I'll be curious to know how it performs on your commute..

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scfoster   10 W

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360

Post by scfoster » Dec 22 2014 5:28pm

Now that's a clean and tidy looking bike/installation. Congrats!

Very much interested in how the Nuvinci 360 works for you. So the Alfine never worked out?
USA - Delaware
Diamondback Apex Build my daily commuter - BBS02 with Samsung frame-mount battery (13S 4P, 25R cells, 47V)

pjgold   100 W

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360

Post by pjgold » Dec 22 2014 5:43pm

scfoster wrote:Now that's a clean and tidy looking bike/installation. Congrats!

Very much interested in how the Nuvinci 360 works for you. So the Alfine never worked out?
I did over 5000 km with the Alfine so it does the job, the 2 problems with it are that it will not gear change with even a moderate amount of power.It will just grind until the power cuts then slip into gear. Also I had it slip out of gear a few times and never trusted it to stand on the pedals always had it in the back of my mind that it might slip.

So far so good with the Nuvinci but time will tell.

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KINNINVIEKID   1 kW

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360

Post by KINNINVIEKID » Dec 22 2014 5:46pm

Watching with great interest.
Very stealthy bike
BBSHD on 2017 Marin Muirwoods
BBS02 on Cannondale Trail 6
Dillenger 1000 watt front wheel kit on Trax TFS1 MTB.
250 watt chinese scooter!
Cyclamatic Power Plus 250 watt road bike.

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scfoster   10 W

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360

Post by scfoster » Dec 22 2014 8:08pm

pjgold wrote:
I did over 5000 km with the Alfine so it does the job, the 2 problems with it are that it will not gear change with even a moderate amount of power.It will just grind until the power cuts then slip into gear. Also I had it slip out of gear a few times and never trusted it to stand on the pedals always had it in the back of my mind that it might slip.

So far so good with the Nuvinci but time will tell.
That's good information. The whole point for me is to avoid the grinding gears. I do a LOT of stop and go with stoplights, so I often find myself in the "wrong" gear when I have to stop suddenly. The Nuvinci looks like it will do the trick. The only issue is the cost of two of them. I want to have a spare set of wheels with studded tires (winter) or MTB tires (summer light trails) to swap out quickly. Still cheaper than a second bike.

I was thinking of locating an already built wheel but now you've got me thinking of doing it myself. hmmmm.
USA - Delaware
Diamondback Apex Build my daily commuter - BBS02 with Samsung frame-mount battery (13S 4P, 25R cells, 47V)

pjgold   100 W

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360

Post by pjgold » Dec 22 2014 8:45pm

scfoster wrote:That's good information. The whole point for me is to avoid the grinding gears. I do a LOT of stop and go with stoplights, so I often find myself in the "wrong" gear when I have to stop suddenly. The Nuvinci looks like it will do the trick. The only issue is the cost of two of them. I want to have a spare set of wheels with studded tires (winter) or MTB tires (summer light trails) to swap out quickly. Still cheaper than a second bike.

I was thinking of locating an already built wheel but now you've got me thinking of doing it myself. hmmmm.
The Alfine will do the job but you need to set up an electronic clutch, I used my throttle on my left hand and used the software to program it to just kill the power. There is less lag than using the bake cut off but there is still some. The other option is to just stop pedalling to change gear. On the plus side you can just change gears at full stop.

I'm pretty confidant that the Nuvinci will be the best set up but yes they are expensive. I had no problem with the wheel build, I used and online spoke length calculator and had the front wheel to copy the spoke pattern plus online guides. I also bought a cheap dial indicator to help true the wheel.

One thing I will say is starting from the lights with the nuvinci is a joy, just smooth acceleration.

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scfoster   10 W

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360

Post by scfoster » Dec 23 2014 6:37pm

Decided I had to have one but chickened out on building it myself. Called Universal Cycles in Portland USA. They have a custom wheel builder page but I wasn't sure of the rim, so called them directly. The salesperson was super helpful and put together the order with a Mavic rim to handle the weight, potholes, etc. Total price to build and ship is $568.79. This includes an additional 16T sprocket to go with the 18T supplied with the hub (just in case I want something smaller than the 18T). Decided to splurge and built a front wheel to match (Merry Christmas to me).

Now I have to wait a couple of weeks to get it due to the holidays and ground shipping. :cry:

Thanks for all your help with the questions.
USA - Delaware
Diamondback Apex Build my daily commuter - BBS02 with Samsung frame-mount battery (13S 4P, 25R cells, 47V)

pjgold   100 W

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360

Post by pjgold » Dec 23 2014 9:01pm

Good luck with your install it is fairly easy but read the instructions carefully on the cable setup before you cut them to length. I got mine back to front and had to redo them luckily there was enough length to do so.
Mine did not come with the outer cable sleave so you might have to get that seperate. Also put some superglue on the cable before you cut to stop them fraying as you can not crimp on cable ends with the way it is set up.
I am running a 20T sprocket and 44T chainring which is good for about 45-50 kph

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scfoster   10 W

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360

Post by scfoster » Dec 24 2014 7:53am

Found this link by Park Tool for Nuvinci 360 installation instructions. Very detailed.

One question... is there a noticeable reduction in the top speed available with the BBS02, when the Nuvinci is installed? I've read some threads about efficiency loss and was wondering.
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pjgold   100 W

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360

Post by pjgold » Dec 25 2014 2:50am

I haven't noticed a top speed reduction, in fact the opposite. To be fair though the gearing span is grater with the Nuvinci 360% compared to the Alfine 307%. I geared it so that most of the extra range is on the low side but it still has slightly more top than the Alfine.
I have noticed that it feels lighter on the legs but that could be the 44T chainring instead of the 48T or just the fact that you can adjust it to the right load.

This is the gearing I had on the Alfine compared to the Nuvinci

Image
Image

Still I don't believe for a second that it is as efficient as a derailluer maybe close to an IGH though, at the end of the day for a 24kg electric bike the small amount of efficiency loss to me is not a big deal. Loosing a few more kilos of my mid section should more than make up for it.

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scfoster   10 W

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360

Post by scfoster » Dec 25 2014 12:21pm

I'm planning on a drop in with the current BBS02 48T chainring to compare apples to apples (with the same tires). I'll do some speed runs with a GPS before and after, to see the effect.
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pjgold   100 W

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360 UPDATED

Post by pjgold » Jan 07 2015 6:42am

Updated in first post

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scfoster   10 W

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360 UPDATED

Post by scfoster » Jan 18 2015 8:40pm

Finally getting around to the install. I had the bike shop from which I purchased the hub build the wheel.

They sent the wrong manual with the hub which made for great fun. I was looking for parts that no longer exist! Here is a link to the current manual (post 2012). The online Youtube videos aren't necessarily correct either.

One thing I have to ask is do the recommended exposed cable lengths work? The manual wants 120mm for the underdrive cable (indicator goes flat when this cable is pulled). The overdrive cable (indicator creates a hill when pulled) is supposed to have 111mm exposed. I find that these measurements don't work and are too long, resulting in the cable housing falling out of the slots at either the hub or the handlebar mounted shifter.
USA - Delaware
Diamondback Apex Build my daily commuter - BBS02 with Samsung frame-mount battery (13S 4P, 25R cells, 47V)

pjgold   100 W

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360 UPDATED

Post by pjgold » Jan 19 2015 4:10am

Something not quite right I used these same lengths with no problems, no where near coming out of the cable holders.

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scfoster   10 W

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360 UPDATED

Post by scfoster » Jan 19 2015 11:32am

Further research, the range of motion of the shifter at the hub is less than 90 degrees, which I know is not enough.

Luckily, I checked this range out of the box when Universal Cycles (who built the wheel) shipped it to me, so I know I didn't change anything.

Called Fallbrook support, noobody answered the phone so I left a message. Then I called Universal cycles and they were nice but not helpful. They asked that I work with Fallbrook (Nuvinci) to troubleshoot.

Took the wheel off the bike and attempted to reset the CVP to full overdrive per the instructions. The hub definitely does not rotate through the full gear range.

Not a good start.
USA - Delaware
Diamondback Apex Build my daily commuter - BBS02 with Samsung frame-mount battery (13S 4P, 25R cells, 47V)

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scfoster   10 W

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360 UPDATED

Post by scfoster » Jan 20 2015 11:48pm

Spoke to Fallbrook technician today. Definitely something wrong requiring that the unit be returned to them.

Have to commend Universal Cycles. They offered to get another N360 hub, build a new wheel and ship it to me, while the defective hub/wheel is shipped back to them at their expense. That's great customer service.
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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360 UPDATED

Post by Spottydog » May 17 2015 2:22pm

Great looking build pjgold,I run an N360 on manual shift cables to begin with then added a Harmony shift kit which is alot easier to set up with no cables used, it shifts fine under load, the harmony electric motor won't shift gear if load is too great, this rarely ever happens that I have noticed.
It can be used in manual mode too which works much like a cable setup but no feel of resistance when changing gear as it is in effect a fly by wire set up.
My BBS 02 motor runs at 25amps so time will tell how long the hub copes with the power, I only ride for lesure tho so my weekly milage is low 20/25 miles tops.
My gearing is 42t x 16t my tyres are now big apples 2.35 x 26 I had some marathons on 1.75 x 26 but prefer a more cusioned ride, I live in hilly area and bottom of gear range seems to get me up anything I need to climb, I mostly peddle as well and try to avoid overstraning the hub with full throttle standing starts, it's very nice to roll on the power from walking pace, the bike accelerates suprisingly fast and seemlessly up to it's top speed around 30mph especially on flat or slightly down hill.
The set up is nice and takes alot of the unrefined nature of the banfang motor away, I don't have to think about cutting power to shift gear or feeling the jolts and grinding of gears if you mis shift as on my first derailuer set up.
The chainline is good now I use the dished alcedoitalia chainring I expect good chain life as a hub drive specific chain is used, for sure the drive system is inefficient but the motor compensates for it and I love the easy way it rides no need to think about gears just enjoy the ride non of the other gear systems let you ride this way.

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360 UPDATED

Post by ccavan78 » Nov 18 2018 5:46am

I just got a priority continuum onyx that has the nuvinci n330 do I need to switch to the n360 to convert to electric? Also the bike already comes equipped with a gates carbon drive. I actually planned on installing a BBSHD to the bike any suggestion would help greatly everyone I ask tell me to go with 3spd IGH. The bike will be daily commuting and a few hills on the way to work.
Your input will be much appreciated. I also for got to mention that I have a 55T chain ring up front and rear cog is 24T.

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360 UPDATED

Post by timk » Nov 25 2018 1:42am

Very nice, I'd be keen to take a close look at this one day! Do you work in the city?

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Re: Focus Planet BBS02 + Nuvinci 360 UPDATED

Post by keithmac » Jan 13 2019 2:32pm

Nice clean install there!. Looks very similar to my build.

I run a TSDZ2 with Nuvinci 360 and it really is an excellent hub, really smooth shifting.

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