"Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

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"Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by icecube57 » Jan 21 2015 1:11pm

Many of you know me. Ive have had several builds in the past. Ive slowly refined my skills and pushed the boundaries and found the breaking point of many things over the years. I havent been posting much on here lately. Ive gone through several different builds. The last few havent been document but this one is different. I plan to document this build because there are things that will be done that will open windows of opportunity for many wanting to go to the next level without breaking the bank. No one wants to be the guinea pig. By no means am I made of money but there are some products I think we are sleeping on. This project I will brings some products to the forefront and Im going to give my honest experience with it.
Last edited by icecube57 on Mar 02 2015 8:50pm, edited 3 times in total.

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The Chassis Platform

Post by icecube57 » Jan 21 2015 2:52pm

The bike for this build isnt a Walmart bike... or a hybrid thereof with upgraded swing arm or suspension. Its not some high end in full suspension with double or triple crown forks.... Its no something hacked together in the backyard... What is it then? It something that we have been sleeping on for a while. It once was a vision.. then it turned into vaporware. We didnt hear about this until it finally was put into production. A forum member by the name of Max Kogan designed a ebike frame a while back and tried to get some backers. He tried to get your input and hype you guys up but nothing much was brewing so he drifted back into the darkness. Time passed and he emerged with this frame.
Charcoal- (Custom).jpg
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Now my first impressions of this frame I was thinking that this was fugly. (SORRY MAX) The more and more I looked at it I looked at the functionality of it I came around and realized that what he did for us answered alot of issue we have building reliable ebikes. Here are a few of the things I noticed right off the back.

The tubing and construction of the bike looks excellent. We have been forced to convert bikes that are made to be visually appealing and functional for the things they were originally intended to do. Like pedaling and riding in rough terrain or riding on smooth road surface. They design to make the bike lightweight,compact in some cases, strong by integrating odd complex angles. The steering able also seems to be dramatically affected by you rear tire size and the amount of suspension travel you have. 26 inch wheels front and rear put the bike at a more even keel while dropping wheel sizes with a bike with fork that has alot of travel makes it look and may possibly feel awkward. I will elaborate on this when I get it assembled.

Max made a platform that was very open and accommodating. He thought of the key things that were desirable on a ebike frame.

150mm drop outs for even the largest motors. Very thick and deep drop outs that eliminate the need for torque arms. The allows us to use regen. (Axle strength willing). If your axles are long enough you dont have to compromise on your freewheel options cause you should be able to fit a 7-8 options speed. You just need some spacer washers.

We also have a HUGE open space in the triangle. He offers a battery box to fit this frame but you can buy the frame without the box.The box and the straps that go across the box and hold it in the frame are removable. The box I believe is designed for use with headway cells but for us savvy enthusiasts this just means a shit load of room for Lipo. I dont have the frame just yet but if I were to use the box my 24s 2p 100v 32AH Turnigy Multistar battery is not even taking up half the box... so that gives you an idea on how much space there is. I plan to use the box at a later time but Im really catering my build to use the Additive V2 frame bag without the frame box. I transport my bike on the hitch rack on my car so the box will add great wind resistance. I would prefer to transport my bike with the triangle open so thats why I want to use the additive bag so I can easily remove the bag and toss it in my back seat. I also assume that I could use some wing nuts on the straps that hold the battery box to make it easily removable. To each their own.

The head tube angle gives the bike a little bit more rake than Im used to but this should help with high speed stability meaning no death wobble. It should track as an arrow when you let go of the bars. The head tube is exceptionally long so fork options may be limited. He does have the perfect fork to mate with this. Its about $300. RAIDON FRONT SUSPENSION FORK 2014: (32MM ALLOY STANCHIONS,REBOUND ADJUSTMENT, AIR VALVE, LOCKOUT ADJUST,HYDRAULIC DAMPING). Everything but remote lock out. This is one of the few forks that have a long enough steerer tube and has enough space left to mount the handle bar.

The bottom bracket is 100mm. This isnt bad but it isnt good either. The reason for this wide BB is because this eliminated clearance issues for the battery box. Headway cells arent small. This bike was designed with using a headway pack in mind. This solves the issue for those cells but this gives the battery box a ton of room for LIPO. This size limits what you can do for BB option but by getting the component kit this eliminates you having to hunt for options. The hard work has been done for you. A high quality FSA DH ISIS is provided in the kit. I was playing around with the idea of getting another torque sensor from Grin Tech but the wide BB eliminates this wet dream.

Attention to details is great. Cable mounts for the brake and derailleur lines have been integrated into the frame so nice clean purposeful cable routing. They are under the down tube out of the way. There is also a standard kickstand mount just behind the bottom bracket that should give you plenty of options for kick stands which is a must for bikes like this. We are in a age where the kickstands are a thing of the past so. There are rack mounts on the seat stays incase you want to put on a rear rack which gives you more cargo carrying options. The frame does have mounts for Disc brakes in the rear. Im pretty sure some shims might have to be used. He does provide them if they are needed.

Lets address the lack of suspension. If you are an offroad enthusiast. This bike frame isn't for you being that its a hard tail. Im 325 lb rider and Ive had good luck with hard tails on paved trails and street use. Most bike lack strong enough shocks springs to support me and the weight of the bike. You get that bobbing effect when you pedal also. I usually pair my wheels with Scwhalbe Big Apples. This gives me a bit of cushion on my ride. I also dont have to worry about pinch flats and such. To support me the weight of the components on the bike I normally run about 50-60PSI and find even though this is high for most people I still find it has a very nice ride. And hitting a few unseen pot holes at speed it seem to absorb it quite well. I have found out most stock entry level spring forks suck. I recently started using air forks. Even these are questionable to a certain extend. I normally have to pressurize the system above what the manual says to achieve the desired suspension sag but once its dial in .. It rides like a dream. SO this frame can be used as street use or a commuter but not for the technical stuff unless you like hard tails like that.

The above is based on picture inspection. I will give more information and do a hands on video.

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Re: "Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by teslanv » Jan 21 2015 3:26pm

Excited to see the progress.
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Re: "Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by cwah » Jan 21 2015 3:58pm

Interested. Does still feel like a multi thounsand usd build
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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Motor Choice

Post by icecube57 » Jan 21 2015 7:19pm

I had alot of options dangling in front of me.The Crown-TC65-80-100, The Cromotor,4065, 4080 were the ones that caught my eye. Little birdies kept nagging me to go with the MXUS. But the availability in the USA was nonexistent. By some divine force someone had an unused V2 in the USA for 335$. I scooped it up faster than a fat kid dropping his ice cream cone on the play ground. I always wanted to go bigger and badder over the years. I also wanted to get the lesser know or underdog motors and see what I had to do to get them to sustain higher speeds and power for extended periods of time.

I mainly did variations of air cooling. Drilling holes in the cover this was well but without monitor of the actual temps this was just a linty band-aid for the situation. With the introduction of the CA V3 this opened up alot of options with manufactures including temp sensors with the motors. This was great now we can monitor motor temps. To take things a step further the CA no can override and pull the power back to help maintain a non lethal equilibrium with plenty of power still without throwing you into a pathetic limp home mode. So great air cooling and temp sensors and the CA V3. This is like the triple threat. How can this get any better. This is how... MASS. With these game changing motors of today.. they are getting bigger in size. Especially with the stator width. Also the construction of the stator supports. The MXUS 3000w as solid cast aluminum stator supports which aid in the heat sinking capability and therefor sustained power. The crystalyte equivalent of this motor uses stamped steel stator supports that are riveted together. This provide piss poor heat transfer and heat sinking capability.The weight difference between Crystalyte 40XX series and the MXUS motor .. Crystalyte comes in a 7.5kg The MXUS comes in a 8.6kg unlaced. So the MXUS clearly has extra weight in its favor. +2lbs. I also has a stator that 5mm wider than the 40XX.

The clearly puts the end user in the big boy motor category for the fraction of the price. I came in 200+ dollars cheaper for a motor that performs better than the major brand equivalent.
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Last edited by icecube57 on Jan 22 2015 4:11pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by icecube57 » Jan 21 2015 7:22pm

cwah wrote:Interested. Does still feel like a multi thounsand usd build
I didnt say this was a budget build. I consider this to be a budget ebike frame. A budget motor. The controller will be solid. The Battery would defintely be different that what we consider. This will come in about 3K but the performance range and ease of assembly will be in a league of its own.

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Battery Choice

Post by icecube57 » Jan 21 2015 9:01pm

There are alot of different options I could have chosen.

4s 20c hard cases are cheap and the hard plastic protects it from most damage but you have alot of connections to deal with and the weight of all the plastic adds up.

Nano techs are heavy and if you parallel enough 20c lipo together they perform like Nanotech so the extra cost is just stupid.

Zippy 8ah are overrated on capacity delivering closer to 7-7.5ah at good voltage vs the sucky saggerific voltage in the last bit to get to 8ah if you are lucky. The run of the mill Turnigy 20c is a good choice but you still have alot of connections to deal with. The more that can go wrong.

I tested the 10ah multistar packs a few months ago. I was satisfied with their performance at 2-2.5C. To make this battery work on my build I need 30+AH. Luckily the 6s 16ah multistar were in stock at hobby king. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... ouse_.home. I decided to run 24s and 32ah so this is 4s2p or 24s2p depending on how u look at it. This should give me 64-80A continuous to feed my Lyen 18fet 4110 controller while maintaining atleast nominal voltage or better through 90%+ of the discharge curve.
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This is a simple pack that will allow me to use alot of off the shelf cables like 2 to 1 balance cables . I plan to chart each battery by doing a full discharge and group the battery in sets of twos to where the pack discharges evenly. I plan to permanently parallel two packs together in each group at the pack level and cell level. The battery connectors that come stock on the batteries are xt90 I will cut them off crimp the leads of two packs together to 10 gauge wire and solder XT150 connectors. I will series these pack groups I will create a harness to interface to the controller with AS150 connectors. The plug as a resistor in the tip so it will act as an anti spark precharge. I'm trying to fit the batteries in an Additive v2 Frame bag. If it doesn't fit the 8 packs. I will use the battery case the comes with the bike.

Going by the full voltage number this is a 3.2kwh pack or 2.8kwh at nominal voltage. My years of experience with battery puts it closer to the higher kwh number. The estimated range at 20mph is 160miles. The top speed range should be 25-30 miles at 45-50mph.
Last edited by icecube57 on Jan 22 2015 4:12pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Controller Choice

Post by icecube57 » Jan 21 2015 9:52pm

Controller controllers controllers... Where do I start. Initially I was going to buy the motor and controller from a vendor. The vendor was offering a 48v-96v 60a sine wave controller. I also consider a Adaptto controller and a Sabvoton. As we know sine wave controller makes motors virtually quiet. This was a concern for me. You can have a motor that's to quiet. I believe the growl of an electric motor is like the equivalent to a flowmaster on a car. It's a dead giveaway on what you are riding but people hear you coming. So using a square wave or infenion style controller removes the stealth from your build adds wanted and unwanted attention. The cost factor was a factor also. So several of these were to rich for my blood. So since I didn't get the motor from the vendor in opted not to get the controller from them. I asked Adaptto about their lead time but their reply was a little delayed and I lost interest. Savbaton is just so damn expensive. I decided to go back to a tried and true vendor... LYEN. In my heart I knew it would ultimately end up with him. So with that choice out the way what combination of features and fets and such. ... Well.... I had always loved the format of then12fet controllers. My previous build had a 12fet 3077 Mosfet controller. I ran 18s which mates well with the max volt of the fets. I always believed 18s is the same voltage to stay at if you don't want anything to go wrong. This 12fet 3077 Mosfet controller I had i pushed to 65-70a and it was solid and reliable on the magic pie I had it on. The fet has lower resistance casing it to be able to sustain more amps yet run cooler. This build I wanted to get out of my comfort zone and go up to 24s again which is something I haven't done in 3 years. This puts me in the 4110 mosfet category. Back in the day I didn't have much success with the 4110 Mosfet controller. I always pushed them to hard and ended up popping a few cause I was too cheap to go to the 18 fet. So I decided not to make that mistake. So 18fet it is. The options I got were silicone battery and phase wires, program connector, cycle analyst connector. Regen enabled. I wanted the timing advanced enabled by default. I normally get a 3 speed switch but I opted out to get the 3 speed switch on the CA. I picked up the v3 CA from Lyen also. I normally get the external cruise control and the connector installed but this built into the CA also. I plan to run the e brakes through the CA too. I asked lyen to program the controller to 65a and 160a phase but he said try it at 120a. This is a good call because I would have been smoking the motor. A chart was uploaded today showed what the continuous phase amps should be on the Mxus 3000w 4T and what I wanted it was well above what the motor wants. So that whats behind my motor controller choice.
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Last edited by icecube57 on Jan 22 2015 4:17pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Controller Choice

Post by Sean9002 » Jan 21 2015 10:27pm

icecube57 wrote: As we know sine wave controller makes motors virtually quiet. This was a concern for me. You can have a motor that's to quiet. I believe the growl of an electric motor is like the equivalent to a flowmaster on a car.
Image
OSET 20+ - Custom frame and swingarm, Motorims - 66V
Ruff Cycles Porucho - MXUS 3000w - whitewalls - Gloss black/Pearl blue/copper leaf - custom tanks - bobber saddle
Giant Glory 00 - Clyte X5404 - Hubsinks - 18FET Sinewave
Fuji Nevada S - MXUS 35mm- Hubsinks - 12FET Sinewave
39inch longboard Dual 50mm, 12s lipo

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Re: "Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by arkmundi » Jan 21 2015 10:38pm

Did you consider the new Kelly Controller at all?

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Re: "Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by icecube57 » Jan 22 2015 12:50am

I'm biased against Kelly due to the weight and form factor. They are boss from what I see and hear from people but trying to tuck away a kids shoe box on a bike... Its not a job for me but a job for Merlin the Magician.

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Re: "Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by icecube57 » Jan 22 2015 11:33am

Here are some frame spec from the vendor.
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Motor Specs

Post by icecube57 » Jan 22 2015 11:37am

These charts show the expected speed and phase currents the motor will exhibit.
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Goodies From Grin

Post by icecube57 » Jan 22 2015 12:07pm

Image

I got some goodies from Grin. Lights cables and tools to get the build moving. Their Fed Ex Priority is no joke.

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Re: "Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by litespeed » Jan 22 2015 2:39pm

I would have also gone this route had I wanted a hard tail but my butt tells me no way!

Looks like a great bike your building.

Tom
I'm married so you know I'm no stranger to pain!

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Re: "Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by Ypedal » Jan 22 2015 3:20pm

I recently wondered what happened with Max's frame project... great to see one being put together !!!! subbed. 8)
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Re: "Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by icecube57 » Jan 22 2015 4:08pm

More goodies came in the mail today.
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Re: "Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by teslanv » Jan 22 2015 4:12pm

Oh, my goodness.
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Re: "Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by arkmundi » Jan 22 2015 4:22pm

OK, agree you're good, but this is not your goodness unless you too buy the good stuff. Am following closely. We need an optimum model build with the MXUS 3KW. Have sent email to eBikeDeal@hotmail.com for pricing on frame. Regards all and best of goodness on your builds. Soon will be spring.

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Re: "Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by teslanv » Jan 22 2015 4:29pm

Icecube was considering a CLyte HS4065 motor, until I talked him back from the edge... I was going to hook him up with a Factory Sample, but he found this one first and it was already in the States.
I'm just glad to have him representing the MXUS...
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Re: "Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by markz » Jan 22 2015 4:44pm

After reading this I think I made some good choices on what I bought.
I guess I should email Lyen about my controller.

How much was that frame?

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Another Shipment of Goodies

Post by icecube57 » Jan 23 2015 4:16pm

Mailman dropped off some more items for the rig. 2-Day turn around for hobby king. Not Bad.
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8 Multistars 6s 16AH (2 got dinged in shipping) I took pictures and registered them for warranty purposes. These are the first two to get cycled for capacity checks.
Cell Log (For spot checking cells)
Icharger 406 Duo (For charging)
Balance Lead Extensions (Will be apart of the balancing harness)
10G and 12G wire (For Battery Harness)

I have 4 more Multistars on the way. The total pack size will be 24s 3P for 100.8V and 48AH.
The dimension of the battery box should fit it all with the packs standing up. If I totally wanted to max out the box it could fit 16 packs for 24s 64AH.

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Controller has been tested and shipped.

Post by icecube57 » Jan 23 2015 4:20pm

Got my test video from Lyen. Controller is on its way.

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Re: "Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by Kent » Jan 23 2015 6:27pm

Good to see you with us again, ICE.

Concerning your Lyen 18 fet-there has been some discussion about different controller/motor color combos and what seems to work best without a so called false positive.

After you get yours up and spinning, could you kindly share which combos seem to work best for you?
72 V, (2x36v, 11.5 ah in series) Cellman, HS3540, 18fet Lyen, Jamis Dirtjumper Hardtail. Its streetlegal w license plate, inspection sticker.

Only by setting an example of good road manners and public courtesy can we convince the general public to take the electric bike seriously as a transportation option. Obey traffic laws!

My build: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=45706
Going legal: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49390

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Re: "Destination Discovery" Extended Range MXUS 3000W Build

Post by icecube57 » Jan 24 2015 9:16am

Kent wrote:Good to see you with us again, ICE.

Concerning your Lyen 18 fet-there has been some discussion about different controller/motor color combos and what seems to work best without a so called false positive.

After you get yours up and spinning, could you kindly share which combos seem to work best for you?
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 34#p970334

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