Super Commuter: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

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Super Commuter: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby crossbreak » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:12 pm

Some pics of my last built. Did 4 bikes with mentioned motor and controller. Bought them from cell man. Works good.

The whole system is intended to be fool proof. As these bikes are commuters, they have to be reliable. So I chose components that are known to be reliable. The battery is somewhat oversized for the range aimed for (30km). The tires are puncture proof. The connectors can not be plugged in a way that anything would be damaged. Ther is a killswitch/ignition switch directly at the throttle, in case a malfunction of the throttle or other part of the drive system occurs
Fenders, Reflectors, side stands and so on make these vehicles usable and save in workaday life.
The charger is fan-less/noiseless, so the battery can be charged at work without being annoying workmates

A PAS sensor can be used for cruise control if a longer range like 60-80km is desired. The Cycle Analyst (CA) V3 has been setup with an Economy mode: PAS Power is limited to 1000W and PAS speed to 40kph (the throttle still works as usual up to 60kph and 4kW). Not really usable ATM since the brake cutoff switches at the brake levers are still missing. PAS cruise without these switches is a bit dangerous.

Major Parts:
Motor: 6T upgrade MAC from cellman
Controller: Kelly KBS48121X controller from kelly (without 70k e-rpm upgrade, it does >50k e-rpm without issues)
Cells: 13s7p Samsung INR 25R from nkon
BMS: OZ890 Smart BMS from bmsbattery, added 10pcs IRFB4110 MosFETs to make it handle 120A instead of only 20
Display: Cycle Analyst V3 DPS from Grintech
Charger: Meanwell HLG 240H 54 (fanless, 240W, weight is only 1.2kg, a full charge takes about 3.5 hours)
Bikes: 2xKona Stinky (2008 and 2009?), Giant XTC (2001), Centurion (2008)

1st step: Kelly soldering session.

I put on:
- CA-DPS plug: 6-pole JST-SM plug, the yellow wire was used for the thermistor instead of the speed signal from the hall sensors (which is not suitable for geared hubs)
cellman told me to do so, saves me one cable to the handle bar (the rest of the CA-DPS Plug is the same for the CA-DP plug. I had to open the CA V3 DPS and solder the yellow wire of the DP plug to the thermistor pin)
-0.25 m long AWG12 wire as external shunt ( I ran out of AWG10 and AWG8 was too thick/would have been too long for an 1mOhm shunt: AWG8 would be 0.5m @1mOhm) it drifts a bit with temperature ( up to 10%) better go fo Constantan if you want something really precise
- fuse for CA and lights
- killswitch plug: a 2-pole JST-SM plug
-XT90 plugs for the battery, shortened the wires
-4mm bulltes connectors with HXT connector insulation for the 3 motor phases, shortened the wires
-Insulated all remaining unused controller cables with heat shrink
-program the Kelly throttle settings, so it will accept the Cycle Analyst throttle signal 1V...4V (last picture below)
Attachments
P1010204.JPG
old 0404 and newer 0405 kelly KBSX, the old one is on top
P1010207.JPG
the kelly plugs are waterproof but bulky. They have to go
P1010212.JPG
The soldering the white Shunt+ wire for the CA Amperage measurement
P1010216.JPG
another shot of the Shunt+ connection
P1010222.JPG
The Battery+ Wire to the kill/ignition switch. This is used to power the Kelly Logic, CA and Lights, a 5x20mm fuse (2amps, semi-quick) is in line.
P1010345.JPG
the Shunt- cable at the battery connector
P1010333.JPG
Adding a yellow wire to the Hall connector for the thermistor. This wire directly goes to the 6-pole CA-DPS plug
blue and yellow hall and phase wires were swapped on the motor side
!Kelly_CA wiring.jpg
Programming.png
program the Kelly throttle settings, so it will accept the Cycle Analyst throttle signal 1V...4V
Programming.png (81.15 KiB) Viewed 7010 times
Verkabelung Kelly.ods
(10.17 KiB) Downloaded 133 times
Last edited by crossbreak on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:49 pm, edited 28 times in total. View post history.
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Re: Built: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby crossbreak » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:33 pm

session 2: File down the drop outs and instal the lasercut torque arms
Filed down the dropouts 2mm to correct the position of the rear wheel. Original axle size was 10mm, new axle size is 14mm. Now the wheel sits right where it should and the disc brakes byte where they should :idea:
At the end o´f the day, i installed torque arms on both axle ends and added compression bolts, pics will follow
Attachments
P1010242.JPG
torque arm blanks directly after the laser cutting. The thin parts got quite hot during cutting.
P1010269.JPG
the drop outs filed 2mm deeper for position correction of the rear axle/ brake disc
P1010266.JPG
Trial fitting one torque arm
P1010257.JPG
yep, this is where the brake disc should sit. Note the tiny gap between hub and brake. A 1mm disc rotor spacer was used between disc rotor and hub. And a 2mm lasercut double-D washer on the inside of this side of the axle. This increases dropout distance from 135mm to 137mm. Still acceptable. Otherwise, there would not be any gap at all and hub would rub on the brake. A little fail design of the MAC that has to be ironed out
Last edited by crossbreak on Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:03 am, edited 4 times in total. View post history.
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Re: Built: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby crossbreak » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:38 pm

session 3: Assemble the battery
i glue the cells with FIX ALL TURBO before i start welding the 0.15mm nickel stripes (25mm wide)
Attachments
P1010420.JPG
separating cells for bonding
P1010432.JPG
after bonding, the nickel striped are spot welded, the nickel has a cross section of 136 x 0.15 mm = 20.4 mm², a copper equivalent of 4.9 mm² (AWG10)
P1010507.JPG
after soldering the balancer leads to the nickel: trial fitting the anode copper bar, a 0.8 mm thick an 10mm wide piece of copper sheet: It has a cross section like an AWG 8 cable
P1010510.JPG
P1010516.JPG
tinning the anode rail, note the paper pieces i put between nickel an cell tops to save the cell tops during soldering
P1010518.JPG
after soldering, the whole story is very flat and compact.
P1010529.JPG
soldering the 100A mini AML fuse to the anode+
P1010532.JPG
P1010551.JPG
fitting the BMS and Upgrade MosFETs. The FET PCB was bonded to the BMS PCB.
P1010552.JPG
the cathode is the last thing that gets connected. now the BMS gets power. Next step is to plug in the 14-pole balancer plug
P1010554.JPG
Big Mistake: I did not solder the cathode of this pack as the very last step. The Anode of this pack was touched by the soldering iron during soldering the Negative output cable (behind the MosFETs). Luckily, the BMS shut down the dead short quite quickly. Otherwise...let's not think about what could have happened.
P1010555.JPG
The bare FET PCB before soldering the Gate drive and sense wiring
Last edited by crossbreak on Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:21 pm, edited 8 times in total. View post history.
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Re: Built: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby crossbreak » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:41 pm

Session 4: Collecting parts
Attachments
P1010224.JPG
custom lasercut chainwheel 52T and protector
P1010227.JPG
killswitch/ignition, self made from bmsbattery parts
P1010236.JPG
some more stuff like XLC sidestand and 7-speed DNP freeweehl (11T-30T), Disc Rotor spacers
P1010248.JPG
P1010254.JPG
XT90S Anti-Spark Connector
P1010299.JPG
Busch + Müller Cyo 6.5...75V lamp 175Q75 with Cycle Analyst and rear light connector
P1010330.JPG
soldering the DC plug for the front lights.
Last edited by crossbreak on Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:40 am, edited 10 times in total. View post history.
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Re: Built: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby crossbreak » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:45 pm

Session 5: Insulate throttles (bmsbattery hall throttle). Some thumb, twist and half twist throttles where used
Attachments
P1010387.JPG
2 years old throttle after malfunction (does not release to 0 throttle if wet in the rain)
P1010378.JPG
To prevent the throttle from malfunction in the rain, i put in some FIX ALL TURBO. The same stuff i used for bonding the cells
P1010390.JPG
P1010396.JPG
used this to insulate the JST-SM plugs of the throttle as well (like all JST-SM plugs I made)
Last edited by crossbreak on Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:23 am, edited 3 times in total. View post history.
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Re: Built: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby crossbreak » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:52 pm

another session:
Attachments
P1010293.JPG
Swapping the LM35 temperature sensor for a CA-V3 compatible 10k thermistor
P1010357.JPG
Soldering the extension cords for the battery pack
P1010360.JPG
adding anti bent protection: Again FIX ALL TURBO
P1010369.JPG
Last edited by crossbreak on Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:24 am, edited 2 times in total. View post history.
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Re: Built: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby crossbreak » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:52 pm

Putting it all together
Attachments
P1010571.JPG
P1010569.JPG
P1010570.JPG
P1010586.JPG
P1010562.JPG
P1010567.JPG
P1010572.JPG
P1010573.JPG
P1010583.JPG
P1010580.JPG
Last edited by crossbreak on Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total. View post history.
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Re: Built: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby crossbreak » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:53 pm

adding oil cooling to the hub:
17x26x7 seal rings
engine sealant
90ml of shell diala s2 insulator oil
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Re: Built: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby beast775 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:20 pm

Hella power! exciting battery build! :D
2 FINGER SALUTE TO ESSO.no buying gasoline for 7 years now.
I spent all my money on bicycles women and beer the rest i just wasted.
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Re: Built: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby arkmundi » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:22 pm

Thanks for the lesson set for an outstanding MAC motor build. Question: why the Kelly controller, rather than an Infineon 4110 fet, which is pug compatible with the motor, also from EM3ev? And, is there some precedent for oil cooling the motor in high-amp config; as, does it keep it cool encough; or, is an experiment? :?:
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Re: Built: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby crossbreak » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:48 pm

thanks, i post this so others can learn and for me so others can criticize things that could fail/ be improved

swapping the blue and yellow cables (both Halls and Phase wires) makes the kelly 100% MAC compatible. CA V3 compatibility need sadly same of soldering

So why not an Infineon?
1. throttle control of the Infineon is speed mode. It's un-ride-able at this power level. Not controllable. The kelly has really smooth torque throttle
2. The Infineon will burn if too hot
3. the infineon will burn if you connect the halls wrong
4. the infineon is large. it wont fit into the saddle bag
5. the infineon is weak. A 6 fet infineon would fit into the saddle bag, but it would not handle 120A like a 12Fet Kelly of almost the same size
6. you loose warranty if you reprogram the infineon
7. the infineon is noisy, it does not do sine wave commutation

surely there are more reasons against the infineon that just dont come to my mind ATM. But there is really no reason to use such crap

The oil cooling is no experiment. It was planed in the first place, but I wanted to test how much difference this does, so I drove around without oil for some days. Shell Diala S2 oil was exactly designed for such purposes. And cellman does not sell his motors with shaft seals just for fun ;)
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Re: Built: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby arkmundi » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:56 pm

Thanks for answers. Where are you getting the balance of controls - throttles, etc? I assume the Kelley controller can be programmed; is so?
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Re: Built: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby crossbreak » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:00 pm

at low speed, the infineon throttle is just not controllable. That is why there are throttle tamers. The CA V3 can work as a throttle tamer, but that induces throttle lag. I want instant, but controllable throttle, so there was no way around a controller like the kelly. The price was lower as an infineon, too. An infineon that does 120A stock would have cost me more than the $150 for the kelly.

sure the kelly can be programmed. like all controllers. Thing is, you get the software right on their homepage. For others, like the x8m06c you have too search a lot, but at the end of the day, nothing really works the way you want
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Re: Super Commuter: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby dbaker » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:44 pm

Great work, Crossbreak :D A photo of torque arms from each side holding the motor shaft, please :)
Last edited by dbaker on Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Super Commuter: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby dbaker » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:48 pm

The main reason for the CA V3 is the motor temperature rollback feature?
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Re: Super Commuter: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby crossbreak » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:36 am

thanks David :) Jep, that is exactly what makes this power level possible.

I could as well have connected the thermistor to the kelly. This would make live safe, too. But the Kelly has no roll back feature, it simply shuts down the power stage completely if the motor has reached the maximum temperature. This could be dangerous in traffic.

The rollback feature is worth a lot. It makes live easy. You can still hit full throttle all of the time without wondering about anything. You can't burn your motor and still dont risk a power stage shutdown.
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Re: Super Commuter: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby crossbreak » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:23 am

some quick shots of the right torque arm. Sorry for bad quality
Attachments
IMG_20150313_194715.jpg
IMG_20150313_194826.jpg
IMG_20150313_194850.jpg
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Re: Super Commuter: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby dbaker » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:10 pm

Nice job on the torque arms. Can I buy a set from you?
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Re: Super Commuter: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby upek » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:41 pm

How much was custom chainring and guard. 104mm BCD? Steel or aluminium?
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Re: Super Commuter: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby crossbreak » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:47 am

it's stainless, 104mm BCD, 52T, fits 6-8 speed chains

another pic of the CA and Kelly marriage which may give some insight in their relationship

Image
Image
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Re: Super Commuter: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby upek » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:13 pm

So I assume that you are happy with Kelly.
How to estimate max battery current based on peak motor current?

As far as I understand KBS72121X will give 130A phase on 100% settings, but how is it related to battery current.
(basic Infineon rule is simple: phase current = 2.5 x battery current)
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Re: Super Commuter: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby crossbreak » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:37 pm

So far, i have not experienced any battery current limit, even if running more than 100A for more than 30 seconds. So the maximum Battery current is equal to the maximum phase current at the point of maximum power. This is at 40kph for this bike. As a result, at all other speeds it is less.

these controllers are actually about 15% underrated. A 120A model will actually output ~150A. This is why i programmed the Kelly to 80% motor current, otherwise it would be 150A phase current for a speed range ~10 kph to ~40 kph. 150A is a bit too much for this motor. Feels like it saturates. I just explained that further there: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=63578#p1022721

Sadly the Kellys dont output full phase current at low speeds. This is why many say that a weaker Infineon still pulls faster off the line.

Just measured KV for the 6T/kelly combo: It is 655rpm/52.4V = 12.5kV (62.5kV @ rotor))
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Re: Super Commuter: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby Jazzman56 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:19 am

Hi crossbreak,

I was wondering if you could maybe shed some more light on that programmer for the Smart BMS ? Do i need to buy there "proprietary" programmer or can i just use a generic one ?

Nice Build :D

Regards,
Jazzman
Last edited by Jazzman56 on Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Super Commuter: 6T MAC 48V/120A Kelly in a 26" rim

Postby crossbreak » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:49 am

thx. Some succeed in programming with a generic one, but they could not use the vendor software. Most easy way is to use the proprietary one.

I did both. We made a GUI software to use our own arduino based programmer. But i did not write all of the code myself... so sadly i cannot give it away.

ATM i am again using the proprietary programmer, even if it has some minor bugs. It does the job and is easy to use. For example, i still i did not manage to use external 10k thermistors. they are always ~40°C off. They show 60°C if it is only 20°C. Did not investigate further here.

Another issue is to get clean shunt readings. There is a lot of drift in it. I have a 0.5mOhm shunt, but if i calibrate, i have to program a value roughly half of that: 0.26mOhm
Guess this is due the strange shunt circuit on these boards. This circuit makes it possible to use the MosFETs to be used as a shunt (which does not make so much sense as FET resistance depends highly on temperature) But i did not investigate further here as well yet.

there are some threads about this topic:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48461
Last edited by crossbreak on Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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