EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike build

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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by amberwolf » Jun 14, 2015 1:21 am

Frakentrike wrote:By the way - I notice the last bunch of photos I've attached to my messages are all not displaying inline but instead have a "not downloaded yet" message showing. Is there a limit to the number of attachments you can add to a thread or something?
No, it's the size/dimensions:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 13&t=14748

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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by Frakentrike » Jun 27, 2015 3:34 am

Thanks Amberwolf. Hopefully this photo works:
painted on grass.jpg
tilt left.jpg
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tilt right.jpg
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Last edited by Frakentrike on Jun 28, 2015 1:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Current build: EATSRHPV E-Assist Tilting Full-Suspension Recumbent Trike
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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by amberwolf » Jun 27, 2015 3:47 am

Yep, they work. :)

And it looks like you bought it, rather than built it! Good work! :)

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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by The fingers » Jun 27, 2015 9:52 am

Uber cool. 8)
Black Schwinn High Sierra
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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by Frakentrike » Jun 27, 2015 7:43 pm

amberwolf wrote:Yep, they work. :)

And it looks like you bought it, rather than built it! Good work! :)
It is amazing how a nice coat of paint can change the look of a vehicle from built to bought! :)
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Current build: EATSRHPV E-Assist Tilting Full-Suspension Recumbent Trike
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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by amberwolf » Jun 28, 2015 2:04 am

Yeah but it takes mroe than paint...has to look good to start with.

Almost nobody asks me if I bought mine. :lol:

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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by Frakentrike » Jun 28, 2015 2:10 am

Well, a good friend and I managed to shove the broken motor cable back down through the hollow axle into the hub motor and then cut out the bad sections and re-joined the wires together:
Motor Wiring fix.jpg
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After testing, the motor was still stuttering with no torque, so we then replaced the multitude of dodgy little connectors with one big connector for the motor power cables an 5 smaller wires:
Motor Connector.jpg
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This connector is rated to 20A and 300V. Does it look like it should be able to handle power to my 1KW 48V hub motor? Or should I have gone for Anderson connectors or something?

After doing this, the motor was still misbehaving so I replaced the several small connectors for the throttle cable with one bigger connector:
Throttle connector.jpg
Throttle connector.jpg (49.26 KiB) Viewed 1647 times
And it was still stuttering. *sigh*

I then tried a spare controller and that displayed exactly the same problem again. Drat.

What do you reckon guys? Do you think it might be a faulty Hall Effect sensor in the motor or would you still suspect a dodgy connection or broke wire in one of the cables?

I tested the resistance of the wheel to rotation by shorting out two then all three phases and found that the resistance to turning the motor by hand increased from no resistance to a fair bit of resistance with 2 shorted to quite heavy resistance when all three were shorted. From reading other ES forum posts I understand that should mean that the phases are not shorted anywhere along their length. Would that be correct?

Any suggestions about what I should try next muchly appreciated!
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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by Frakentrike » Jun 28, 2015 2:14 am

amberwolf wrote:Yeah but it takes mroe than paint...has to look good to start with.
Almost nobody asks me if I bought mine. :lol:
Having seen some of your constructions, I have no idea why people would think that.... :lol:
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Current build: EATSRHPV E-Assist Tilting Full-Suspension Recumbent Trike
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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by amberwolf » Jun 28, 2015 2:22 am

Frakentrike wrote:This connector is rated to 20A and 300V. Does it look like it should be able to handle power to my 1KW 48V hub motor?
Can't see the female contacts, but those look like a variation of "faston" connectors commonly used on small SLA terminals, whcih suck for actual contact surface area and for grip, especially if you have to plug/unplug them much (they get pried open and don't hold on anymore).


Or should I have gone for Anderson connectors or something?
Bullets are commonly chosen, as well. I no longer use ANY connectors on phase wires because I've had damaged connectors cause heating and then connector failure (or even wire insulation melting, that would ahve shorted phases and blown the controller if I hadn't been checking it). I solder them directly, with just enough free wire to service the wheel if needed.

I also don't use connectors for the halls, because of connection failures from corrosion (even here in "dry" Phoenix), vibration, etc. I solder those wires, too.

But I used to use Andersons (PP45), and I have also tried RC-type bullets of a couple of types/sizes. The Andersons were great for stuff I needed to plug/unplug frequently, especially under power, but they require wire be "loose" in teh back of it so the contact can float, and the wire cant' be pulling or twisting on it, so you can't tie down the wires anywhere near the contacts/shells, or you defeat their mating design. The bullets dont' have those problems, but they still let just enough water in there to get corrosion if they're not "gold plated", or after the plating scrapes off after enough connection cycles. They also don't all always unplug easily and I've actually ripped a wire apart inside it's insulation trying to get bullets apart on a roadside repair. :(




And it was still stuttering. *sigh*

I then tried a spare controller and that displayed exactly the same problem again. Drat.
Sounds like it's the wrong phase/hall combo, or a hall sensor has failed or has a wire problem. (broken wire internally, etc).

There's stuff in the wiki and I think the motor technology sticky index on how to test the hall sensors. Also on ebikes.ca.


I tested the resistance of the wheel to rotation by shorting out two then all three phases and found that the resistance to turning the motor by hand increased from no resistance to a fair bit of resistance with 2 shorted to quite heavy resistance when all three were shorted. From reading other ES forum posts I understand that should mean that the phases are not shorted anywhere along their length. Would that be correct?
Yes.

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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by Frakentrike » Jul 03, 2015 11:10 pm

amberwolf wrote:Sounds like it's the wrong phase/hall combo, or a hall sensor has failed or has a wire problem. (broken wire internally, etc).
There's stuff in the wiki and I think the motor technology sticky index on how to test the hall sensors. Also on ebikes.ca.
Thanks for the suggestions AW.

It does indeed look like a problem with the Hall sensors. I tried the test detailed by Ykick (thanks Ykick!) of connecting a 9v battery and 10k resistor and found that one Hall sensor circuit switched between 0.05v and 2.6v as I rotated the wheel while the second Hall barely moved between 0.05v and about 0.20v and the third didn't change voltage at all staying around the 0.05v mark.
Hall Sensor test.jpg
Hall Sensor test.jpg (104.04 KiB) Viewed 1598 times
Drat. I guess that means replacing the Hall sensors or their wiring or both. Sigh. Does anyone have a link handy for How to replace Hall sensors in hub motors of this style? (I've been looking in the Motor Tech section of ES but haven't yet found a nice tutorial for this sort of hub motor. Sorry if I'm being blind!
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Current build: EATSRHPV E-Assist Tilting Full-Suspension Recumbent Trike
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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by bowlofsalad » Jul 03, 2015 11:32 pm

Frakentrike wrote:Does anyone have a link handy for How to replace Hall sensors in hub motors of this style? (I've been looking in the Motor Tech section of ES but haven't yet found a nice tutorial for this sort of hub motor.
http://www.ebikes.ca/learn/troubleshooting.html Check on this page and look at http://www.ebikes.ca/documents/HubMotor ... emoval.pdf http://www.ebikes.ca/documents/HubMotor ... cement.pdf these two PDFs which might help guide you or at least get things moving in the right direction.

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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by Frakentrike » Jul 04, 2015 5:10 am

bowlofsalad wrote:
Frakentrike wrote:Does anyone have a link handy for How to replace Hall sensors in hub motors of this style? (I've been looking in the Motor Tech section of ES but haven't yet found a nice tutorial for this sort of hub motor.
http://www.ebikes.ca/learn/troubleshooting.html Check on this page and look at http://www.ebikes.ca/documents/HubMotor ... emoval.pdf http://www.ebikes.ca/documents/HubMotor ... cement.pdf these two PDFs which might help guide you or at least get things moving in the right direction.
Perfect! Thanks bowlofsalad. :-)
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Current build: EATSRHPV E-Assist Tilting Full-Suspension Recumbent Trike
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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by Frakentrike » Jul 06, 2015 2:45 am

My 6 y.o. daughter has given the trike her seal of approval for dinkying a passenger on the dicky seat over the rear wheel:

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Current build: EATSRHPV E-Assist Tilting Full-Suspension Recumbent Trike
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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by Frakentrike » Jul 19, 2015 6:43 pm

I've mostly completed the battery rack now while I wait for a friend to get in the proper Hall sensors to repair my hub motor. (thanks Paul!)

The rack is made from aluminium and represents my first proper bit of aluminium welding. It's turned out reasonably well I think though I'm still undecided as to whether I should paint it black or leave it in the raw. I think I need to add a little more reinforcement to the cro-moly support frame as it is made of pretty thin-walled square section tube and with the weight of the LiFePo batteries will probably bend it under the stress of bumps.
battery rack front.jpg
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battery rack back.jpg
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e-assist FrankenTrike homebuilt 1984
Current build: EATSRHPV E-Assist Tilting Full-Suspension Recumbent Trike
Build Blog: http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageb ... p?t=113645
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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by quuxman » Sep 22, 2015 9:57 am

This is excellent. If you were to do it again, would you do anything differently? How much does the trike weigh without the battery and motor? I'm currently fantasizing about something like the Outrider trike, but with suspension, and ideally tilting.

I really like how you stretched out the frame a bit and built in a rack. Would your design take a lot of modification to work with tiller style steering, like HITrike builds? This would give even more room on either side and underneath the seat for batteries / cargo.

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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by Frakentrike » Sep 22, 2015 10:12 am

quuxman wrote:This is excellent. If you were to do it again, would you do anything differently?
Things I will change for the next version include seeing how much higher up I can get the tilt/steering tie rods. At full tilt the outside tie rods get pretty close to the ground so they can hit tall kerbs as soon as the front wheels drop down to the road when bouncing down a kerb. I'd also simplify the tilting geometry.
quuxman wrote: How much does the trike weigh without the battery and motor?
The trike is just on 32kgs (70lb) without motor or battery, but for a lot of parts, I used thicker walled tubing than I wanted and a lot of other components I beefed up to allow for higher motorised speeds so I could drop a fair bit of weight next time.
quuxman wrote: I'm currently fantasizing about something like the Outrider trike, but with suspension, and ideally tilting. I really like how you stretched out the frame a bit and built in a rack.
It works well for carrying a passenger and once I add a streamlined fibreglass rear body, there will be heaps of extra cargo room. The only disadvantage is there is less weight on the rear wheel meaning it can spin in sand/boggy ground or going up a slippery hill, particularly if I don't have a bit of weight in the panniers.
quuxman wrote:Would your design take a lot of modification to work with tiller style steering, like HITrike builds? This would give even more room on either side and underneath the seat for batteries / cargo.
Because the two steering levers are an integral feature for controlling the amount of tilt of the vehicle, I think it would be difficult to do this with a tiller steering column. Interesting thought though - it might be possible to put a pivot point in the column above the rider's legs, but difficult to avoid interfering with the rider's legs as they pedal.
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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by Frakentrike » Sep 22, 2015 8:04 pm

Apologies for the lack of updates - my friend Paul fixed the faulty Hall sensor for me and I've been too busy having fun riding the trike to work every day. The tilting and full suspension work like a dream. Powering along at full speed down a twisty path today smoothly leaning into the curves like a motorbike and yet with the sure-footedness of three wheels on the ground is a revelation compared to my old hub-motor-powered mountain bike which sent me head over the handlebars when I hit honky nuts on a corner a few year's back.

Here are some recent photos of the trike in action down at Busselton Pedal Prix:
MartonTrike.jpg
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TiltingDaughter.jpg
TiltingDaughter.jpg (45.26 KiB) Viewed 1415 times
The full suspension and comfortable mesh seat make me feel like I'm cruising on a deck chair down a river - so much nicer than a bike saddle. It makes riding to work an absolute joy.

And here's a side view showing the ample cargo and battery space:
Side view 620.jpg
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In a few week's time I'll be making a multi-camera video of the trike in action so stay tuned.
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Current build: EATSRHPV E-Assist Tilting Full-Suspension Recumbent Trike
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Video Update

Post by Frakentrike » Oct 17, 2015 6:39 pm

I've captured a few new videos for your edification.

Here is the trike with its new Tribal Whips Aurora animated LED-illuminated flag pole. This whip has a wireless remote control to call up various animations and colours, though it's running in demo mode at the moment:



My 7 y.o. daughter enjoying a ride on the passenger seat:



360 degree tour of the trike in its latest form with battery rack, LED whip, and re-built key start and lighting switch control box. The old control box had somewhat dodgy wiring and had cracked. The battery rack supports the 48v 12 AH battery pack with room for the second battery and also provides a mounting point underneath for the hub motor controller and the 8.4V battery box for the lighting system:



More to come.
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Current build: EATSRHPV E-Assist Tilting Full-Suspension Recumbent Trike
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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by Frakentrike » Oct 17, 2015 6:56 pm

And GoPro footage from the front of the trike as I ride around the park and demonstrate the extreme wheel travel again that allows the trike to stay level even when one wheel drops down a steep kerb.

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Current build: EATSRHPV E-Assist Tilting Full-Suspension Recumbent Trike
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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by Frakentrike » Feb 18, 2016 9:50 pm

Well, I just had my first relatively major crash on my trike and came out of it pretty unscathed and was very pleased with how the Trike performed with a critical failure of the front suspension at high speed.
SuspensionFailureClose.jpg
Suspension Failure Close
I've been throwing some pretty rough stuff at the trike in recent times getting air over a big speed bump on a downhill on the campus at work and jumping up a lot of kerbs and up till yesterday the trike had taken the beating in its stride. On the way home from work yesterday however, after flying over the speed bump at about 45kmph and then smacking over a kerb and powering through some boggy sand two of my welds on one of the lower front lower suspension arms gave away as I was going around a corner and down a driveway onto the road at speed (30kmph).

The left front wheel and suspension arm separated and the arm hit the bitumen as I skidded along on it and the backbone of the trike. Thankfully, because of the Trike's tilting architecture I instinctively kept the trike upright rather than rolling over and gracefully came to a stop on the road uninjured. A very nice vindication of the durability and functionality of this tilting feature.

I have yet to fully investigate the damage on the trike but so far it looks like in addition to the two failed welds on the lower front left suspension arm, the main damage is just one of the two rod ends holding the top front left suspension arms to the left wheel snapped as a result of the extreme forces going through that single suspension arm after the lower arm parted company. Tomorrow I'll see if any of the steering or tilting connections were damaged but at a glance they so far look okay.
Crashfront.jpg
Crash Front
Crashfronthigh.jpg
Crash front high
SnappedRodEnd.jpg
Snapped Rod end
(178.28 KiB) Downloaded 5 times
e-assist FrankenTrike homebuilt 1984
Current build: EATSRHPV E-Assist Tilting Full-Suspension Recumbent Trike
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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by amberwolf » Feb 19, 2016 3:41 am

Ouch!

Could be worse--you coudl've nosedived and flipped. :/

At least it all looks repairable.

Was it the actual weld itself that failed, or the material around it? So far in my mechanical problems, it's been the stress around the area or in the middle of a tube that fails, and not the actual weld.

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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by Frakentrike » Feb 19, 2016 8:38 am

amberwolf wrote:Ouch!
Could be worse--you coudl've nosedived and flipped. :/
True. Thankfully with the vehicle being a bit longer than the average recumbent trike thanks to the passenger seat behind the driver's seat and having a fair bit of weight near the back wth the battery pack behind the seat and the heavy hub motor in the rear wheel, it is a lot less nose-heavy than many trikes.
amberwolf wrote:At least it all looks repairable.
Definitely. As long as I don't find anything else wrong tomorrow, it should only take re-welding the two bottom ferrules back into the tubes of the lower suspension arm and fitting a new rod end on the top arm. I might replace the other rod end as well as a precaution in case it was over-stressed.
amberwolf wrote:Was it the actual weld itself that failed, or the material around it? So far in my mechanical problems, it's been the stress around the area or in the middle of a tube that fails, and not the actual weld.
Yes, it was definitely my poor welding of the ferrules into the ends of the tubes on that lower swing arm. That was actually the first component I made on the trike and my inexperience welding cromoly tube is thus revealed. The thick metal of the ferrules obviously hadn't been heated enough to melt into the ends of the tubes. :oops: Thankfully it is easily fixed.

The encouraging thing is the swing arms themselves didn't even bend despite hitting and gouging the tarmac bearing all the weight of the vehicle after the swing arm parted way so the main structure and my choice of tube thickness and diameter all looks sound which is a relief.
e-assist FrankenTrike homebuilt 1984
Current build: EATSRHPV E-Assist Tilting Full-Suspension Recumbent Trike
Build Blog: http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageb ... p?t=113645
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy5hIJ ... b3XYsXMlAw

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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by macribs » Feb 21, 2016 8:18 am

Glad you are OK after the incident.
A very cool build, I just look over this thread in a hurry but I will for sure read all of it. This is a very cool and nice looking build.
In fact a DIY leaning trike like yours is the first I see here on ES.

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Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by Frakentrike » Mar 06, 2016 3:36 am

Thanks macribs, it's been a very fun build and even more enjoyable using it as my regular commuter vehicle.

I've now re-welded the broken suspension arm, re-painted it and put it all back together again, but the vehicle is now displaying a number of different problems.

The motor keeps cutting out after a short while. Initially it would work for a few minutes then cut out though now it only takes seconds at full throttle for it all to go dark. Turning the "ignition" key off and back on again brings it back to life, but only for a few seconds before it cuts out again. I've tried a different battery but the same behaviour occurs. I wonder if something's happened to the controller.

I'm also finding the vehicle is pulling to the right - I have a feeling I tightened the upper suspension arm rod ends too much so that the left-hand wheel assembly is angled in towards the vehicle. That should be an easy fix.

Lastly, the tilting/steering arms seem to be catching when I'm fully tilted to the right, probably due to something being stressed during my little accident.

Hmm. Frustrating.
e-assist FrankenTrike homebuilt 1984
Current build: EATSRHPV E-Assist Tilting Full-Suspension Recumbent Trike
Build Blog: http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageb ... p?t=113645
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy5hIJ ... b3XYsXMlAw

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macribs
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3289
Joined: Jul 22, 2014 5:59 pm

Re: EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike b

Post by macribs » Mar 06, 2016 7:02 am

Timing issues perhaps? Could it be that your hall sensors got knocked loose?
I think I would start there.

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