PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

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izeman   100 GW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by izeman » Oct 27 2015 2:37am

puchwudi wrote:stillstand, full charged (92.4VDC) pulling full throttle --> ??BMS?? shuts down --> I can see the Voltage on the CA dropping to 0V... Bestech claims that their BMS can handle 80A constant, 200A (+/- 20%) peak current ... Do I hit the limits when starting from stillstand? Max. current for lyen controller is set to !80A!
i already told you to set "block time" to zero. and i guess you did set this. during block time the controller run UNLIMITED. this can put many components at risk, and if it really is the bms that's shutting down than i would say it's a good safety feature to safe motor, controller AND battery. lowering the programmed current of 80A will not do anything in this case. just double check "block time" and try again.

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puchwudi   10 mW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by puchwudi » Oct 27 2015 11:40am

izeman wrote:
puchwudi wrote:stillstand, full charged (92.4VDC) pulling full throttle --> ??BMS?? shuts down --> I can see the Voltage on the CA dropping to 0V... Bestech claims that their BMS can handle 80A constant, 200A (+/- 20%) peak current ... Do I hit the limits when starting from stillstand? Max. current for lyen controller is set to !80A!
i already told you to set "block time" to zero. and i guess you did set this. during block time the controller run UNLIMITED. this can put many components at risk, and if it really is the bms that's shutting down than i would say it's a good safety feature to safe motor, controller AND battery. lowering the programmed current of 80A will not do anything in this case. just double check "block time" and try again.
Block Time is set to 0 since the beginning of the bike build :) Do you know other reasons which can influence the current measurement of the CA? I havent changed the Shunt, which is on TOP /Bottom Layer @ Ground.

Thanxs

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izeman   100 GW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by izeman » Oct 27 2015 11:50am

good to know that block time is "correct".
what do you mean by "... Shunt, which is on TOP /Bottom Layer @ Ground"?
the CA needs two inputs to measure the current. it measures the voltage difference (sag) between the beginning and the end of the shunt which has a very linear and defined resistance. so nothing that you can do wrong here. if you set the CA's shunt value to the correct Ohm than you're done. if the shunt wires are in the wrong order you get negative readings. but that's it.
so if you don't go 100% full open throttle but the maximum before it cuts out: what max amp readings to you see on the CA? if this is near 200A than it's possible that the BMS cuts out.
other than that you can skip the BMS at all and directly connect the battery to the controller and see what happens. nothing that can really go wrong. maybe blow a FET, but this can be repaired very easily.

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madin88   1 GW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by madin88 » Oct 27 2015 12:09pm

congrates to this build! Im happy that i could help you with the battery and when i now look at the pics of the finished bike, the more complex design with that 5 single packs (instead of one large inthe triangle) was definitely worth the time! It looks really cool and stealth 8)

about the problem with cutoff:
have you contacted the manufacturer of the BMS and tell him about the problem? I think it would help to mod the shunt of the BMS, but than you have no accurate overcurrent protection anymore and the FETs could fry.

The current you see on the CA should be quite accurate if you have not done any work on the controllers shunt.
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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by mountain biker » Oct 28 2015 8:39pm

I appreciate you putting your build on here.....you obviouslly have spent alot of time thinking about and constructing this beauituful beast. you have given me alot of ideas. it really does look like a bicycle/tank....very cool. thank you. what's next a flame thrower?

throwflame.com/The X15 is the first ever commercially available personal flamethrower. Buy your
own high quality flamethrower that shoots a 50ft inferno of fiery napalm!

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puchwudi   10 mW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by puchwudi » Oct 30 2015 12:49pm

Hey guys! Thanks for your support! I already solved the problem :)

The first things I checked were the max. ratings which are provided by the CA, there I found out that max. peak current was 109A, so I upadated the battery current to 85A and now I dont have any problems. I am onest! Driving at 100% (max. 175A Phase current, 85A battery current) is enough for me. At 50 km/h without glasses I start crying and cant see anything :P I am happy with the power of Cromor V2! Its a great experience driving this beast! ;)

@izeman: Previously I always watched the total wattage (7 to 8.5 kW), today I tested the bike @ Bisamberg, near Vienna and read around 83.5A battery current (new settings!, full throttle, uphill, (!75km/h! without speed drop). I am relly happy with my Puch Monster! A friend of started thinking about a logo ... :D But its just the 1.version!

Image

Today I attached the new Shimano freewheel and the thinner chain (3/32") with my mechanical collegue, pedalling sounds a little bit crispy but I think the new components need some time to run in. (chain adjuster has to be given new)

Image

Next experience was a nice drop around a meter at a play park in the dark ... suspension had no problem with it but the fancy pedal didnt agree ... tooo fragile (because of too much cnc milling, material is too soft)

Image
I didnt mount my diy headlamp because I am very happy with the actual look, so I use the led lamp on my helmet for the night rides (very nice and useful!!!)

Image

Keep riding till 0 degreee! :D
Last edited by puchwudi on Oct 31 2015 12:02pm, edited 1 time in total.

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madin88   1 GW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by madin88 » Oct 31 2015 3:28am

i think that was only a matter of time before the crank will break at this point. stupid design, but often thats the trade-off when parts have been designed to be very lightweight..
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: [url]viewtopic.php?
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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charleyhaze   1 W

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by charleyhaze » Oct 31 2015 4:27am

This more creative than most, I love it!

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louis raaijmakers   100 W

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by louis raaijmakers » Nov 01 2015 2:28pm

maad!
i like it!
great work. but 175a on a lyen 18 fet is no problem?

louis

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puchwudi   10 mW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by puchwudi » Nov 06 2015 4:42pm

charleyhaze wrote:This more creative than most, I love it!
louis raaijmakers wrote:maad!
i like it!
great work. but 175a on a lyen 18 fet is no problem?

louis
Thanks guys for the positive feedback! This bike wouldnt every be finished without the help of my mechanical genius/ welder ;) I'm going to cut a short video of my ride from last weekend, I hope i can publish it till sunday. Next step will be finding a cool design for the side covers and the "fuel tank" :)

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madin88   1 GW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by madin88 » Nov 08 2015 6:13am

the 18FET can do that high amps because of the mods. a stock controller probably would blow..

what about carbon foil at that areas? carbon design is always cool 8)
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: [url]viewtopic.php?
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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puchwudi   10 mW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by puchwudi » Nov 16 2015 12:57pm

madin88 wrote:the 18FET can do that high amps because of the mods. a stock controller probably would blow..

what about carbon foil at that areas? carbon design is always cool 8)
@ maddin: Carbon foil sounds great, I will think about it

You are defenitely right, every FET has its thermal limits and I passed them :D

So I killed a IRF4110 from one of the three Phases ... I spend some time for finding "better" one, but thats not that easy... Because you are limited to the TO-220 package, which has its max. power dissipation. Changing to another package would be too time intensve...

Texas Instruments offers the "CSD19536kcs" (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/csd19536kcs.pdf) which I ordered for the eb318. There are some little differences ... higher package current, better RDson, lower gate capacities ...
I am still looking for a better material between the fet and the aluminium heatsink.

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madin88   1 GW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by madin88 » Nov 18 2015 1:40pm

from the specs the texas instrument FET should be a great improvement over the 4110. the controller should stay cooler with them^^
aside from heat related damage you should take more reasons into consideration like the voltagte spikes at high phase amps and maybe other things..

for the case you do not know yet, there is a thread about this FET with comments of the smartest ES guys:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=58311#p870679

good luck with the repair and upgrade!
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: [url]viewtopic.php?
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by spinningmagnets » Nov 20 2015 11:24pm

I wrote something up, there may be corrections needed, but...here is the first version:

https://www.electricbike.com/puch-moped-qs-hubmotor/

John in CR   100 GW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by John in CR » Nov 21 2015 7:36am

With that level of skill and tools it's easier to just build your own. If you need to use some of the parts and/or frame serial number use as little of the material as possible.

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izeman   100 GW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by izeman » Nov 21 2015 9:51am

John in CR wrote:With that level of skill and tools it's easier to just build your own. If you need to use some of the parts and/or frame serial number use as little of the material as possible.
the purpose of this build was not to go the easiest way. those mopeds are heavily connected to everyone's youth here. it's like lightning rod's wish to electrify a '32 ford hot rod :)

btw: ron, nice writeup. just two additions: you CAN'T pronounce PUCH correctly in english. and it's definetely NOT pronounced "pook" :) you don't have this "ch" in english. i don't know how you would pronounce the greek "chi", but this would probably it. not like "k".

and the picture of the original puch maxi you posted is a heavily modded one. i wish they would have looked like that *ggg*

they look as shitty as that one:
Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (35.52 KiB) Viewed 2983 times

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by John in CR » Nov 21 2015 4:29pm

Update that youth with some style, otherwise rename it Pooch, as in dog. You could retain enough of the look to know it's a Puch, and I'm confident in your ability to give it style. BTW the company said it is pronounced like book but with a "p", and is easily pronounced in English. :wink:

[The extension bmp has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]


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made_in_the_alps_legacy   10 kW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by made_in_the_alps_legacy » Nov 22 2015 1:16pm

No one in Europe would tell you that "puch" rhymes w."Book"
Maybe it was harder to sell if they said it actually rhymes w."push "

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izeman   100 GW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by izeman » Nov 22 2015 1:37pm

made_in_the_alps_legacy wrote:No one in Europe would tell you that "puch" rhymes w."Book"
Maybe it was harder to sell if they said it actually rhymes w."push "
maybe POOK cheated on us, and told the rest of the world how it they like to be called. :)

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by John in CR » Nov 22 2015 2:05pm

made_in_the_alps_legacy wrote:No one in Europe would tell you that "puch" rhymes w."Book"
Maybe it was harder to sell if they said it actually rhymes w."push "
Push seems more appealing than Pook, so either the company didn't know how to pronounce its own name, or you guys don't know how to pronounce it, or maybe pronunciation varies or has changed after different ownership transfers. A friend here has several out of service Haflingers I've been telling him to make electric, so it will be interesting to see how he thinks it's pronounced. Push sounds better to me, but that may just be because it's a word in English, or more likely, because I like the visualization of having to push a gasser around when it breaks down. :lol:

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made_in_the_alps_legacy   10 kW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by made_in_the_alps_legacy » Nov 22 2015 2:13pm

Such a mythic brand... ask mr schwarzenegger maybe, he has pinzgauers
Anyway, great built, can't wait to see the vid'

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izeman   100 GW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by izeman » Nov 22 2015 2:57pm

John in CR wrote:.. Push sounds better to me, but that may just be because it's a word in English, or more likely, because I like the visualization of having to push a gasser around when it breaks down. :lol:
i didn't want to be more offtopic anymore, but if you think it's pronounced PUSH than all those postings didn't make it clear. it's NOT push, not pook, not poosh ... i guess i will need to record it and put the wav file online :)
and as you mentioned pinzgauers: a friend of mine here has a 6x6 modified for rallys. and it has a ford stroker with automatic transmission which we replaced the poor air cooled 4 zyl engine with.

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puchwudi   10 mW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by puchwudi » Nov 25 2015 10:44am

madin88 wrote:from the specs the texas instrument FET should be a great improvement over the 4110. the controller should stay cooler with them^^
aside from heat related damage you should take more reasons into consideration like the voltagte spikes at high phase amps and maybe other things..

for the case you do not know yet, there is a thread about this FET with comments of the smartest ES guys:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=58311#p870679

good luck with the repair and upgrade!
Big thanks to Ron for taking time and writing this nice article on electricbike.com, I'm honoured getting my project on this awesome side.

Thank you maddin for your support! I got 20 of Ti's Fets as samples! :D They arrived yesterday, so I started upgrading my lyen controller.

I started by disassembling the aluminnium bar, which is screwed together with the 18 fets. I used a heatgun and a 60W soldering iron for removing the fets(placed the PCB upside down so that the fets fell out after touching them), afterwards I cleaned the pads.

Image

Cuting the fets to the right length...

Image

I am using a Berquist silicon pad between fet and aluminium bar...

Image

Fixed the FET's on the heatsink

Image

Inserted the 18 Fets at once, soldered them, upgraded the conductor tracks and cleaned the PCB.
At the end I double checked the PCB for any shortcuts...

Image

Image

Right now I can only offer a gopro video with wrong video settings, better than nothing :P

Youtube Link will be edited afterwards

I am planning a nice video of a snow trip in the alps of Styria. Therefore I got a GasGas (140ccm 2 stroke) from a friend of mine... That would be the perfect chance riding in a small group :) We will see....

I am also thinking about a nice winter setup ... e.g. big offroad tyre for the cromo , maybe a replacementent ski for the front tyre? :P

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puchwudi   10 mW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by puchwudi » Nov 25 2015 1:57pm

sunday ride with the original 18 FET infineon controller:


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izeman   100 GW

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Re: PUCH Maxi electro build (4 offroad use)

Post by izeman » Nov 26 2015 3:39am

de jungan buam mit ihre moped ...
nice riding :) i will have to test ride it once it gets warmer. and i already know your next upgrade: a sine-wave controller to make this beast really silent and get rid of that whining noise.
it's also interesting to see how you swapped the FETs. i would have done it completely different. no idea how you managed to align all 54 pins to the board's through holes and install them all at once?!

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