Tank Bike - (Previously: Yet Another Genesis)

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Kodin   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 302
Joined: Feb 20 2014 12:15pm
Location: Portland, OR

Tank Bike - (Previously: Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Kodin » Sep 06 2015 8:18pm

Welp, been lurking long enough, here's the start of my build thread.
[+] About The Bike
Genesis V2100 I got for free due to a funky ebay scam that caused the seller to get their account shut down. ~$700 in parts later, and the frame and handlebar are the only original parts of the bike. :shock: Suspension also now has sealed bearings on all moving parts except the main swing-arm pivot. (That will come next.) :D

This is before I've even thought of adding any electronics to it other than a bike light.

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Bought a Leafbike 1500W with 3mm² phase wires, thermistor, and 5t wind. I then ordered separately a set of side-covers and shaft to run a freehub rather than freewheel. Motor will be oil-filled if I can figure out a good way to do it, but for now I'm going to run it stock until I have time to modify the motor.

Spokes are 3.5mm motorcycle, in a 2-cross pattern, laced into a DID 21x1.6" motorcycle rim. I had to enlarge the flange holes ever-so-slightly to get the spokes to fit through the flanges. (I did this to an interference fit; literally have to screw them through the holes at the threaded section I made them so tight).
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I'll be putting a Pirrelli MT66 80x90-21 on the whole thing.
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The whole thing ends up being the exact same outer diameter as my 26" MTB rims with 2.5" Hookworms, though maybe 1/4" wider.
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Controller is a Sabvoton SSC048150. Yes, it's total overkill to use a controller capable of 150A. Regardless, due to cost reasons I figured 20Ah/12S Multistars would be "enough" to get started, and I didn't want to target 72V straight off the bat. Regarding 150A controller choice, I figure when I DO move to 72V, I can re-use the 48V controller for something else.
[EDIT: Turns out this controller uses 4110 FET's, so likely can be reprogrammed for use up to 96V. Honestly I don't think I'll need to buy another controller until my next build at this point.]
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Just a wee little controller, eh?
[+] Rear Swing-Arm
So I, like most of you who run reasonably torquey motors should be, was concerned with motor shaft spin-out. As such, I originally thought I'd order a Farfle swing-arm for my frame. Sadly, Farfle is out of that business. Fortunately, Barent Hoffman has taken up the design and had parts cut out to continue providing these to the community. I wanted to build my own, so I ordered the plasma-cut parts from Barent and started building. All laser-cut parts are mild steel, the tubing will be chromoly.

Dropouts were modified to admit a clamping bolt, as I want to be extra paranoid and give room for potentially larger or more powerful motors in my future. As such, the first thing I did was clamp them in my milling vice, cut them for mounting tubing, and weld in tubes to the ends for clamping bolts:
Cut:
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Test-fit:
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Weld:
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Mill bolt contact surfaces flat:
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Final product:
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More on this later, as I build the rest of the swing-arm...
[+] Wheel Build
I started making some brass washers for my spokes; the flange thickness for the 3.5mm spokes I got was ~0.080" wider than the actual flanges on my motor, and I wanted them to locate as close to the elbow as I could manage without causing problems. Made from 1/4" solid brass bar, drilled, parted, and countersunk at an appropriate angle to match the flare on the end of the spokes. Flare angles don't quite match up perfectly, which is good; gives about 1-2 degrees of play, so the spokes can angle as required off the flange. Made 5 last night before/after lifting my rebuilt transmission back into my truck, and I'll probably finish off the remaining 31 today. I'll update this post with more "making of" pictures as I go.

Here's a couple I took with my cell phone of the prototype and following 4 I made while trying to figure out a good process for making lots of them:

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First prototype made!

Here's all 5 I made last night on one of my spokes:
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My parting inserts were ~0.085", (supposedly 2mm-ish), so I'd face cut a new bar with the parting tool, zero my DRO, center-drill to get a good center, drill the rod through with a long parabolic 3.5mm bit an inch or two,
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Then advance 0.165",
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Part off,
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Zero, repeat.
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Now I move from the big lathe to the small one for finishing; not because I need to, but because it's faster and the big lathe doesn't have a collet chuck, not to mention the time it would take to swap chucks would make this workflow impractical for 36 identical parts.

They look like this after parting; Since it's small brass and I'm doing 4-5 at a time before advancing the rod in the chuck, the whole rod flexes when I part and leaves these sharp bits. Easy enough to fix in the next step.
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The 3.5mm hole wasn't wide enough to clear the threaded section of my spokes, so I enlarged that with a second drill. Normally you can't work on stuff this stubby, but I have an el-cheapo 7x8 harbor freight mini lathe I've upgraded to a 7x14 with proper tapered roller bearings and all kinds of other stuff, (upgrades cost more than the lathe did originally,) and I'm running an ER32 collet chuck on it. Collet chucks are amazing for this sort of thing as they will grip round stock of literally almost any length with equivalent to about 8-12 jaws. That means I can put a part that's only 0.080" long into it and it'll grip hard enough to stay without distorting it on the outside.

So I push the spacers into the collet a bit, with the parted side facing out, as they usually have a bit of a lip still stuck on the end.
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I push them into the collet flush using a washer that's about the right size.
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This aligns them axially and makes sure they are mounted in approximately the right depth every time.

Then I tighten the chuck and drill them out to the final diameter on the small lathe.
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Once drilled through, I swap tailstock chucks to one with a small 6-tooth countersink bit, and plunge by eye (as I don't have any indicators or DRO's to measure depth on the small lathe,) until the taper almost becomes a knife edge on the periphery.
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Loosten chuck, take a small rod and pop the part out from the rear of the spindle bore, on to the next one.
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I'll probably forego the first drill step for the rest as I'm thinking at this diameter it's unnecessary to add an extra step; should speed me up quite a bit as well since I'm building a lot of these little buggers.

Now up to 12!
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Unfortunately, I've also produced two "duds" which were countersunk too deep and started to flare out on the periphery.
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Skipping the first drill step is definitely faster. I was able to do 10 in ~17 minutes, from start to finish.

One quick tip on working with brass: If you drill it, knock the sharp leading edge on the tip off your drill bits. Brass likes to grab really hard if you have a positive rake drill bit; (literally like 99% of all metalworking drill bits use a positive-rake leading edge). When that happens, the bit basically acts like a screw, plunging in without removing material. At best you get lots of chatter, at worst your drill bit breaks inside the part. Buy a cheap set of drill bits, take a stone and swipe it once or twice across the leading edge of each one, and throw them in a bucket labeled "for use on brass". You essentially have made the leading edge into a zero-rake tool geometry, without making the bit completely dull. Makes a HUGE difference and it'll keep you from breaking your bits or causing weird things to happen while drilling.

Update - 2015/09/07 - Did another 6 in 10 minutes while waiting for some pizza to bake. Also de-laced all of the spokes so I can start reassembly. Halfway there!

Also, yes, they do fit.
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Update - 2015/09/08 - Finished all the spacers. Gratuitous OCD picture because I can:
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I'm using a DID 21x1.6" aluminum motorcycle rim. Super beefy. Here it is test-laced in a 2-cross pattern when I first got all the parts. This was before I made the brass spacers.
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Spokes are 3.5mm in diameter, so I had to drill out the flange holes slightly. Holes are not drilled perfectly concentric to the shaft bearings; they vary ~1mm or so in and out. I discovered this while drilling the holes larger.
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The tire I bought is a Pirelli MT66 front tire, in the 80/90-21 size.
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This means it's 80mm tall with a 90% height-to-width ratio. Means this tire is slightly taller than it is wide, but I was worried about chain lines in granny gear, and this looked like a good size to start with.

Here's a comparison to my 26x2.5" Hookworms.
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Compound feels just as grippy if not more so than the Hookworms, and this tire is STIFF. As in when they shipped it, they wrapped packing tape around it and shipped it as-is. It holds it's shape really well compared to the Hookworms. It's a tubed-type tire, so it's rated to be ridden with a tube in it; I figured that was the best option for this build. I can't wait to see what it feels like on the road.

Update: As other projects have taken my time and my lathe dogs hadn't arrived yet to do center turning, I re-laced the rotor to my rim with the brass spacers.
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Not sure if spokes vary slightly in elbow length or if my brass spacers thickness vary at the countersink, (did them all "by eye" for depth), but a few of the spokes feel somewhat tight. Might pull off the tight ones and cut them down ~0.001mm or so to get them perfect, but for now I'm pretty happy with my batch part build.
[+] Modding the Motor
So I've been having some concerns about shaft thickness on the cassette side, since the cassette provided can accommodate a maximum of 12mm diameter shaft. This bugs me. :P I have a DT-Swiss ratchet hub that uses a 15mm shaft, and it got me wondering; can I bore out my Leafbike hub and use a larger inner-diameter bearing to let me run a 15mm shaft all the way through? My only other option is to build a blind spline broaching tool and build a mating side for my DT-Swiss hub, which I'm less than inclined to do at the moment... It'd require creating the spline for the ratchet to slide in as well as a mounting flange that matches the Leafbike design. Though I have a couple rotary tables, broaching that kind of spline is going to drive me nuts. I'll try to take the Leafbike hub apart tomorrow and see what I have to work with. If I'm making a new shaft, increasing the hub's inner bore would be best to maximize the "meat" I have available on the right side of the shaft.

Picture for comparison:
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UPDATE: Problem solved for the DT Swiss option, if I end up going that route; the hub end spline apparently is a thread-in deal; Broaching would be a PITA, but threading is relatively easy.

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UPDATE 2: Made a tool to disassemble the hub, and it's a style you really do NOT want to try boring out much... I might be able to get away with 1-2mm, (About all I want honestly,) but I can't guarantee it won't affect the strength of the hub going forward. I'll take some pictures tomorrow and consult a fellow machinist in the morning, watch for another update Monday.

UPDATE 3:
Cassette A: is SUPER FREAKIN' HARD STEEL!!! Like I don't even KNOW what this crap is made of, but carbide BARELY cuts it! I enlarged the bore from 3.4mm to 3.5mm and that's about as far as I've been able to remove. Tried an adjustable reamer with steel blades and the cutting surfaces rounded off.

Pics of cassette design taken apart:
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Really starting to think Plan B is the better option:
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UPDATE 4:
So I tried boring again, and it turns out that the cassette just had a massively hard surface layer. Unfortunately, my steel-shanked carbide boring bar swayed back into place once it cut through this, and over-bored by 0.6mm more than I wanted. Sure is gonna be iffy, but I think I can probably live with it for the moment. My 6-foot bar of 4340 arrived as well, so I may start roughing out the shaft tonight. As always, keeping y'all posted!

UPDATE 5:
Turns out I'm a complete derp, and the bearing I wanted to put in was 15mm; I'd targetted 14mm for shaft diameter. Just threw the hub back in the lathe and got it bored to 15.15mm exactly. Should avoid contact with the shaft, and it'll let me run 15mm all the way out to the threads. The original shaft only goes to 13mm in comparison. This should actually be stronger than a non-cassette wheel when I'm done!

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Bearing inner is 15mm exactly, bore is 0.15mm larger.

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Not much meat left on this guy, but really it shouldn't exert a lot of load, and I'm going to back it up with a tubed-nut to retain the bearing(s) anyway.

Derp #2: I lost one of the balls from the cassette. It shot off and has attained freedom where all small highly mobile parts such as springs and ball bearings hide in my shop. Now I'll have to measure the bearing diameter and order a pack of them; might as well anyway so I have spares. What's a good grease to use in cassettes? I'll probably want to drop the whole thing in my ultrasonic and re-grease just in case any of the cutting chips got inside the bearing surfaces anyway.

Update - 2015/09/15 - Popped the motor open today, looks very clean; in fact, maybe cleaner than Neptronix's motor.
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...Aside from this random piece of copper wire.... :shock:
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One of the halls doesn't look perfectly aligned...
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The rest are OK, though not as far out as they could be. There's slots for halls on the other side of the stator as well; I may order a few and swap out all of them with new ones aligned correctly; we shall see...
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Also note the temp sensor poking out from under the windings... Hey there little guy!

Pulled the freewheel cover and magnets with this arrangement. Single-speed freewheel is a beast, I doubt it was damaged in the slightest from the (mis)treatment.
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There was ZERO gap between any of my magnets, meaning they cut the right diameter for my motor; Neptronix's had had an issue where there was a gap, this just means that his can was fractionally larger in diameter than was optimal.

Only issue I see is one of my magnets is missing a tiny corner:
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Oddly, the vanes were machined down on the ends on the freewheel cover. I have no idea why; I don't think there's anything even remotely near that they can hit...
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I turned down a water pipe coupler and cut a slot in it to avoid the cable bundle; should let me (eventually) press the bearing out of the brake-side cover without mangling the wire bundles.
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Makes enough contact with the inner race of the bearing that it should allow me to slide-hammer or press it out; my next challenge is figuring out how to support the darn side cover with enough surface area that it A: doesn't distort, and B: pops the bearing. Seems like either they pressed in the bearings with a crap-ton of force, or they used some sort of glue or locktite.

October 2015: Got 'er removed; turns out that the shaft necks down enough to allow the bearing to pop and be removed without damaging the wire bundle. It's tight, but the cable doesn't even kink. Hardest part of the whole process was de-pinning the hall connector to remove the side cover, then re-pinning in the same configuration afterward.
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(I've seen TONS of examples that show the wire color scheme may or may not match between motors; Especially with the temp sensor wire color. As such, use mine as reference, but don't take it for granted that it's correct for your motor).

Here it is separated:
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Here's the comparison of the two styles of shaft:
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And here's the three parts I'll be installing:
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Brake rotor side has two different designs; one has a round profile, one has gussets:
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I like the fully round version as my brake rotor mounts perfectly on it:
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The gusset version has protrusions that exceed the diameter of the cut-out in the carrier on my rotor. I could always simply cut them down at the contact area if I really needed to, but it's still a consideration to make when speccing out parts. I suspect Leafbike used the round-mount design for my build because it supported a larger diameter shaft for the 3mm² phase wires with larger diameter bearings; I'll confirm this later.

Lastly, here's my first (terrible) cut of 4340:
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Lathe cuts just fine, but I'm going to wait for a new wedge-type BXA tool post to arrive before I make any further cuts. I suspect my piston type is allowing a bit of "give" in my tooling. Either way, this stuff work-hardens a lot, so I'm not expecting totally beautiful results for a while. I'll likely draw-file to final diameter. Further, this is the first center-to-center cutting I've done on this lathe, and I've had to do a lot of adjustments to get it to cut true. I fully expect more to be required before everything is perfectly accurate. Good example: Left side is wider than the right from this last cut:
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[+] The Controller
So I ordered a Sabvoton SSC 048150 off aliexpress. Shipped promptly, price was right, I think I got more than my money's worth honestly. Only downside is the hall plug was broken when it arrived. :( (More on this later).
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(Let me tell you, it's bigger than the pictures make it appear).

First off: the base plate is an effing HUGE heat-sink. Like 3/8" thick at a minimum.
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Second, turns out it's a 24 4110 FET design with 100V-rated capacitors. (0.5F per phase).
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I'm told layout is almost identical to a Sevcon Gen4.

So on to the broken connector. I couldn't readily find the white 6-pin hall connector plugs on ebay, so I got black ones instead. Warning: The housings are different as are the pins. If you convert, you have to snip off the wires at the pins and re-crimp.
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(Top: "White" connector. Bottom: "Black" connector. Note the keying "wings" are different between the two in how they engage with the housings).

Since my crimper wasn't doing perfect crimps, I opted to crimp then solder. I know this isn't ideal, but it's what I chose to do.

First up: flux the crimp section where the wire will go.
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Next, we insert the wire into one of the rubber glands, narrow side toward the wire's end, and strip back insulation to an appropriate length to cover the area the center "wings" cover in the crimp.
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Slide up the rubber gland to the end of the insulation like so, and engage the outer "wings" in the groove in the glad; the whole thing gets crimped together so the glad doesn't slide down the wire. Pretty slick design if you ask me.
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Use a high-quality crimper if you're going to do this. I got mine off ebay, it's paid for itself many times over.
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Comes with several quick-change jaws, and you can get more if you ever need to do other cable types. I'm using the "C" jaws in this case; they are the most appropriate for these connectors.
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Also make sure you adjust the tension adjustment. My first two pin attempts failed because I was off by one position on my tension adjustment.

The next step is somewhat tricky. It ideally would involve a third hand you don't really have, so I closed down the crimper with my leg while holding the crimp and wire together.
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Close it down enough to hold things together and make sure it's aligned:
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As I'm OCD, I took a tiny screwdriver and tamped down the wire to the bottom of the crimp shell. Not needed, but I did it anyway. If nothing else it spreads the wires out evenly in the shell at the bottom.
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Now you can't go slow on the next bit; the crimps won't form as well as if you do it quick. Squeeze down the crimper until it stops and the ratchet releases. If done right, it should look like this before you release:
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And like this when released:
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As I had problems with wires still pulling out, (turns out it was my tension adjustment being off,) I also put a tiny dab of solder down inside each crimp. Be quick about it, these aren't designed to be soldered and the plating will oxidize very quickly when exposed to heat.
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At this point push the pin into the housing.
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The gland needs a bit of fiddling to align in the hole.
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Make sure it fits correctly before pushing the rest of the way in.
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(Hard to demonstrate while holding a camera, but you get the idea). Push the pin the rest of the way in until it bottoms out:
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Don't worry, the pins can't be pushed all the way through. Just make sure they are all the way up front. There's a locking tab that engages each contact that should click down into place when installed correctly.
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Once all the pins are in, grab the rubber seal and stick it into the female-pinned connector:
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Push it all the way down carefully with something small enough to fit inside but not sharp enough to cut or pierce the seal:
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The yellow cover keeps the locking tabs from raising up, effectively double-locking the pins in place. It just snaps in, like so.
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All done!

I'll be replacing all connectors on my bike with these; I know it's overkill in many cases, but I live in Oregon, where moisture is constant; I'd rather not have to worry about crap getting into the connections or corrosion occurring quickly.
[+] Controls
Been a while since I've updated this post... Been busy stripping down and reassembling both of my milling machines and my bandsaw to fix a bunch of issues I've had with them all. In the process nearly lost one finger and sliced my hand open pretty good. Anyway, I have an update!

I made an adapter block from some spare aluminum that joins a linear pressure transducer to a motorcycle brake handle. The fun part about this design is the block used has an air pocket at the top to allow for some compression of the handle. Since the whole thing isn't driving anything, it would normally be VERY hard and just lock up after pressing slightly. The air pocket keeps the hydraulic system from being completely "bled" of air, which gives the whole system some give. Feels very similar to actually activating hydraulic brakes and getting the feedback of pushing on a brake rotor; the resistance is pretty smoothly progressive and my transducer looks sensitive enough to register very minute changes in handle pull.

Hardest part of this project was finding a banjo bolt that was long enough to fit through the block and still be able to screw in. To top it off, the brake handle I bought (cheapo option on ebay,) used an M10x1.25 pitch banjo bolt. Normal M10 threads are either 1.0 or 1.5 thread pitch, not 1.25; Ended up buying a bolt at a specialty hardware store and cross-drilling, then boring to make my own "custom" banjo.

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As you can see, the "stock" bolt for this handle was almost too short to even fit through the aluminum block.

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Finished "banjo" bolt.

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Mounted, tightened, filled with DOT4, bled, and pressure tested.

The block is drilled to within 5mm of the top through length-wise in the center, I think I used a 9mm drill bit, if anyone is curious. Block dimensions are ~20mm*20mm*40mm.

Among other things, this handle generates over 200 PSI when squeezed hard. This is not necessarily good, as it tops out the range of my 0-200 PSI transducer. May have to order a 300 or 500 PSI transducer to get "full" range readings including "panic stop" pull force. This will eventually be incorporated into an input for the Sabvoton variable regen brake input line.
BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD (April 2018)
[+] New Frame
Coming soon!
[+] Motor Shaft 2.0
Coming soon!
[+] Motor Assembled
Coming soon!
[+] Assembled Bike
Coming soon!
Last edited by Kodin on Apr 24 2018 1:21pm, edited 31 times in total.
YAG - (Yet Another Genesis) - LeafBike 1500W 5t, Sabvoton SSC048150

Ohbse   10 kW

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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Ohbse » Sep 07 2015 3:11am

Cool project, nice photos.

Why did you need the brass washers if you're using such large spokes?

Pretty bombproof wheel for a wee motor!

Baron   100 W

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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Baron » Sep 07 2015 3:28am

Hey i sent you a pm about your wheel size but that was before I read the info above in this thread. So it seems you're using a custom rim rather than leafbike's 20" wheel, which I'm thinking about getting. But I can't find any info about their supposed 20" wheel, like rim diameter, total diameter with tire, compatible tires etc. Know anything that might help me?

What made you pick the 5t over the 4t? any other tips you can give someone who is also going for a leafmotor in a smaller wheel?

I'm also working on a genesis build :D check my sig for more info

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Kodin   1 kW

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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Kodin » Sep 07 2015 3:49am

Ohbse wrote:Cool project, nice photos.

Why did you need the brass washers if you're using such large spokes?

Pretty bombproof wheel for a wee motor!
Honestly I think I'd probably be fine without considering the spoke diameter, but A: I am a tad bit OCD, B: The whole wheel will be stronger if I do it right, and C: I can make the parts, so why not? I'd rather build it all out correctly the first time and worry about upgrades after I've gotten a few thousand miles on the bike. The whole bike is going to be this way; detail oriented.
YAG - (Yet Another Genesis) - LeafBike 1500W 5t, Sabvoton SSC048150

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Kodin   1 kW

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Location: Portland, OR

Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Kodin » Sep 07 2015 3:50am

Baron wrote:Hey i sent you a pm about your wheel size but that was before I read the info above in this thread. So it seems you're using a custom rim rather than leafbike's 20" wheel, which I'm thinking about getting. But I can't find any info about their supposed 20" wheel, like rim diameter, total diameter with tire, compatible tires etc. Know anything that might help me?

What made you pick the 5t over the 4t? any other tips you can give someone who is also going for a leafmotor in a smaller wheel?

I'm also working on a genesis build :D check my sig for more info
I went with a 5t because I wanted to keep a 26"-ish wheel size but get better efficiency and lower wattage. In my case I'm using a motorcycle rim because of the added strength, ability to run DOT-rated tires which are less likely to get flats, and the angled spoke holes. If you're going down in wheel size stick with a 4t or heck, maybe even get a 3t if you know what you're doing and your controller can keep up. I did my research for a while before I pulled the trigger on my motor config; as I'll eventually be bumping to 72V or higher for more speed, I wanted something that won't just gobble down the amps like nobody's business. Eventually I may want to bump down in wheel size, in which case the rim will be moved to the front wheel and I'll get a 19" or 17" for the rear. At that point I will either buy an MXUS, or buy a 3T or 4T leafmotor. ...Or maybe an unwound stator and try my hand at building a double-wide hub... Does any company make 0.020" lamination stators yet?
YAG - (Yet Another Genesis) - LeafBike 1500W 5t, Sabvoton SSC048150

nieles   10 kW

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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by nieles » Sep 07 2015 4:03am

how do you like the frond fender? i am considering those for my bike.

Baron   100 W

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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Baron » Sep 07 2015 4:12am

Kodin wrote:
I went with a 5t because I wanted to keep a 26"-ish wheel size but get better efficiency and lower wattage. In my case I'm using a motorcycle rim because of the added strength, ability to run DOT-rated tires which are less likely to get flats, and the angled spoke holes. If you're going down in wheel size stick with a 4t or heck, maybe even get a 3t if you know what you're doing and your controller can keep up. I did my research for a while before I pulled the trigger on my motor config; as I'll eventually be bumping to 72V or higher for more speed, I wanted something that won't just gobble down the amps like nobody's business. Eventually I may want to bump down in wheel size, in which case the rim will be moved to the front wheel and I'll get a 19" or 17" for the rear. At that point I will either buy an MXUS, or buy a 3T or 4T leafmotor. ...Or maybe an unwound stator and try my hand at building a double-wide hub... Does any company make 0.020" lamination stators yet?
Do they even make a 3t leafmotor? Maybe so, but the only options I see for the 20" are 4t and 5t. I'm looking to buy a pre-laced motor..no experience wheel building, and even just occasionally truing my bike's rims gives me a headache. Do you think i'll be able to use DOT rated tires on the supplied rim?

You brought up a good point about raising the voltage which I didn't think about. I will have to consider that, the torque would be insane at 72v in a small wheel :shock:

One more question, did your motor come with a temp sensor, and did you get it to work? I'm trying to figure out if it works with a cycle analyst or if it only works with the provided lcd in their kits.

Just got word back from leafbike support, diameter of the mystery 20" wheel is about 51cm/20" with 2.5" tire.
which means the rim is something like 17" diameter?

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Kodin   1 kW

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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Kodin » Sep 07 2015 4:31am

Baron wrote: Do they even make a 3t leafmotor? Maybe so, but the only options I see for the 20" are 4t and 5t. I'm looking to buy a pre-laced motor..no experience wheel building, and even just occasionally truing my bike's rims gives me a headache. Do you think i'll be able to use DOT rated tires on the supplied rim?

You brought up a good point about raising the voltage which I didn't think about. I will have to consider that, the torque would be insane at 72v in a small wheel :shock:

One more question, did your motor come with a temp sensor, and did you get it to work? I'm trying to figure out if it works with a cycle analyst or if it only works with the provided lcd in their kits.

Just got word back from leafbike support, diameter of the mystery 20" wheel is about 51cm/20" with 2.5" tire.
which means the rim is something like 17" diameter?
72V per Neptronix who was the first to try it, is kind of ridiculous. Bumping down to a decent sized wheel, (20" in your case) should give you really good performance. Neptronix I believe was running a 4t at 72V and could hit ~40 before he'd heat-saturate his motor in a 26" wheel. I know they've mentioned that they can do winds targeting very high and very low RPM ranges; I think the most ridiculous yields 80 RPM maximum at 48V. For, you know, those times when you need to tow a bus... Conversely, I think 3t is definitely an option if you feel like asking. They lace the motor into whatever you ask for; the custom wind build just takes about an extra week or so to complete. I'd say a 4t with 3mm phase wires and a temperature sensor would be perfect for your use-case, but going to a 3t would simply yield more speed for a given voltage. Look in Neptroinx's leafbike 1500W thread and figure out what the maximum RPM's would be for the different wind options; from there, it's easy enough to calculate what the max speed would be at 48V or 72V for a 20" wheel. It's not in the first post, but someone mentioned that Leafbike can target up to ~700-800 RPM max, which would hint at a 3T wind being an option, if you're interested in that.

Also, I'm running motorcycle rims and wheels. There's only one size that crosses over between bikes and motorbikes as far as I know; I think it's like 18" or something... Either way, rim, spokes, tire, tube, and rim tape cost me almost as much as the motor, and adds a lot of weight, but I have the peace of mind that it's probably the last thing that will ever fail in my build.

Remember, when you order, send them email first and ask for a "1500W motor with a [3 or 4]t winding, temperature sensor, and 3mm phase wires." That should give you the best options for upgrades. You could also do the spline cassette option, but the shaft is pretty darn thin; not sure that's a good option for reliability. I'm going to duplicate the cassette shaft they sent me in 4130 or 4340 before I change over.

Regarding the temp sensors: I had to email and ask for one during my order; hooked up to my Fluke temp gauge, it shows accurate temp measurements... I haven't tried to pair it to my CA yet as I'm still waiting on some parts to mod an HP ESP120 power supply to run at 44-48V. When they arrive I'll gear up the supply so I can power everything from the mains rather than batteries. I have batteries but no charger I'd trust to charge them yet. That should arrive in a week. (iCharger 4010 Duo).

I'll continue to update this thread with more info as I make progress on this project. Be sure to check back in periodically. :)
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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Kodin » Sep 07 2015 11:48pm

nieles wrote:how do you like the frond fender? i am considering those for my bike.
Front fender is AWESOME! Only downside is if you lift your bike into the back of your truck and snag the fender, it'll break; and that means a new fender. I'm on my second one for this bike. :P
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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Baron » Sep 10 2015 1:57pm

Hey I was reading through the leafmotor thread looking for info on the leafmotor's spoke measurements. Saw your post, hole-spacing 231mm and flanges 36mm. Thanks for that. Where did you find your spokes, on second thought should I go with different spokes since it looks like you had to modify yours with brass washers? Leafmotor claims on their website they use 12g spokes, but you went with thicker spokes?

I'm still planning out my wheel build, all I need left is to figure out the spoke length/where to buy the right spokes.
rim - http://holmeshobbies.com/Holmes-MMP-17x ... e-Rim.html
tire - Shinko 244 or 241 17-2.5

Aiming for a simple one-cross pattern, any idea what length spokes I'll need? The holes in the rim I linked above are angled for hub motors.

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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Kodin » Sep 10 2015 2:25pm

I wanted overkill, and that's what I went with; had to drill out the spoke holes to accommodate the 3.5mm spokes I chose, and I went with a motorcycle rim for the same reason. Everything about the wheel is overkill, including the washers. I could have just added cheap brass washers and I would have been fine. This was an exercise in machining lots of semi-accurate small parts. ...Not to mention I wanted some bling. Please keep this in mind. :)

Also, while you're looking at rims, check out the offerings from Moose Racing if it's in the same price range. Might be around the same price point and I've heard good things about the quality.
Last edited by Kodin on Dec 08 2015 3:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by neptronix » Sep 16 2015 2:27am

The 4T will do 60mph in a 26" wheel on 72v actually, which is actually way more watts than the motor can handle continuously.

If you have a 20 inch wheel, just get a 4T and run high voltage. Maybe your top speed on 72v is only 45mph, but that's actually right at what the motor will be able to pull off continuously in a 20 inch wheel, so it's perfect.

Never ever order a 3T. It will guzzle amps worse than the 4T.. On my 26" wheel on 12S (47v nominal ), i already have to run 8 gauge wires out of my 18FET controller just to prevent the battery-controller connection from getting hot. I run 70-90A continuous for decent periods of time on that motor.

A 3T will probably give you the same problem of needing stupidly high amps.

Don't get me wrong, i'm all for low voltage, high amps, but a motor that will do 40mph on 48v is just silly in terms of how many amps it will chug down :lol:

Anyway Kodin, good luck on your build.. pretty ambitious for a first build, man :)
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.

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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Kodin » Sep 16 2015 5:35am

I've been lurking a long time and collecting all the parts for far too long. I'm doing it right if I'm going to do it at all.
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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Kodin » Dec 08 2015 3:19pm

Just an update for those who have been following this build thread: New edits and pictures with progress in original post. Started cutting the 4340 on the lathe, waiting on a new tool post to complete the work. May also get around to cutting my spare hockey pucks to make levelling feet and properly level the lathe. It's been sitting on the pallet it was shipped on for the last 6 months and it's starting to look sad and neglected.
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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Kodin » Dec 11 2015 5:40pm

Quick update so far:

Moved from 4130 to 4340, first off... second:

Ordered some new DNGG carbide inserts to try varying geometries and chip-breaker designs. The Kyocera "light finishing" inserts look pretty promising so far...

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Having a nose-radius of 0.2 means they are going to have a very light cutting force, but won't really smooth at all; that said, I can operate at a feed speed/depth most would consider ridiculously inappropriate for 4340. I can get a finish like this with a ~1mm per rev lateral feed and ~0.005mm cutting depth, so I think I should be fine to use these for final dimension cuts. The only scary part is they don't start cutting well until I top out my lathe at 2000 RPM.

Interestingly, this is ~30.8mm 4340, at maybe a foot long, and the center still flexes out of the way of the bit enough to be larger by ~0.0030" or so. (My larger micrometers are only inch measurements).

Going forward I'd like to see what I can do with 0.5 or 1.0 nose radius inserts, but for now I don't have spare cash I can throw at more tooling. There's absolutely no chip breaker on these, so you end up with huuuuge hairballs of chromoly building up no matter what you do, and near the left side of the shaft they can get caught in the lathe dog if you don't stop part way and clear them with long pliers in a safe manner. (Wear a hat, safety glasses, and a full face shield when you run any lathe at more than a few hundred RPM; that shit flies fast and whips you hard).

I have a couple other bits on their way as well, all of which have chip breakers and different geometries, but this is the first I've tried, and so far they seem to do a pretty nice job. Definitely glad these were only available in a 10-pack, as I'll probably end up using these somewhat frequently.
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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Kodin » Dec 11 2015 9:36pm

Never mind, I derped and realized the tailstock was still misaligned. Just spent at least an hour bringing it "close" to true, as well as finding a lateral misalignment of my gap bed. Gap bed is still not perfect, but it isn't enough to offset the carriage anymore like it was; I couldn't figure out why I was getting a repeated notch in my cuts at 3 inches. Tailstock is now aligned enough that I'm cutting within ~0.02mm end-to-end on a foot-long piece. It's close, but not "true". I'd say that's probably enough for now, may continue to tweak it tomorrow if I feel like wasting more time.
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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Kodin » Dec 13 2015 11:39pm

Think I just spent half my paycheck on tooling and replacement parts for my lathes. *sigh*. New toolpost required a T-nut that fits my big lathe; Grizzly unit had a neck at the base that doesn't allow non-Grizzly toolposts to mount. I'm switching from a piston-type to a wedge-type BXA tool post.
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Normally I'd just turn down the larger diameter, but my small lathe just doesn't have long enough tooling that's rigid enough to cut that section cleanly; the "T-slot" section collides with any toolpost I have for it. So on to plan B: Turn down the block included for mounting the toolpost to a lathe into a round T-nut, just like the Grizzly unit. The only difference is that I can unthread this one and flip it around to get the neck-down for the T-slot. I even have an ER32 collet chuck for the small lathe, so I'm able to get really nice accuracy and negligable runout on the mounting post.
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Well, I started cutting the block down, and the lathe was doing great...
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...Until I got impatient and stalled the machine. Which melted down the teeth of one of the primary-reduction timing belt pulleys.
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That means the small lathe is disabled until I get the new parts.
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Ordered replacement "stock" parts, and then also ordered 5mm pitch HTD belts and pulleys to "fix it right" long-term. Along with a keyway broaching set in order to add the keyways I'll need for the pulleys. ...Aaaand lastly, I ordered an MT5-ER40 collet chuck and set of ER40 collets. Worst-case if the belt fix takes too long or I shear on of the mini-lathe's plastic gears, I'll have a way of cutting the rest of the T-nut with the big lathe rather than the small one.
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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Kodin » Jan 07 2016 4:28am

Got my MT5-ER40 collet chuck finally, so I cut a drawbar out of allthread for it, bored the inner diameter a bit deeper, and finished up the cuts for the T-nut on the big lathe.

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Really digging the ER40/MT5 collet chuck. My other chucks gets 10x the runout of the collets. I'm totally sold.

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(Yes, it's actually reflective on all surfaces except the top. (I don't have a left-handed DNMG cutter holder yet, and my only other left-handed tool was really not at all the right geometry for the material I was cutting; Trigon inserts with huge radius chatter like hell on my lathe). I got a really nice finish on the flats with a 3-tooth face mill in the milling machine as well. (Reflection of my thumb evident on that cut)

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...Aaaand done. Cleanest turning I've done like... ever. Also tighter tolerances to the T-slot on the lathe than the "factory" unit was.

New tool post is mounted, and the old post is still usable if I ever need to for any reason.

Now I'm just waiting on a left-handed DNMG holder to arrive, and I'm set.
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Re: YAG - (Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Kodin » Apr 24 2018 1:07pm

Well, it's been years, and I now have the problem that time is more valuable than money. So I've purchased a "Tank" ebike frame, (Similar price class to the EEB frame, though heavier by a noticeable amount,) and am currently modifying it for my tastes. (Replacing swing arm rubber bonded bushings with an insert and actual cartridge bearings, etc...) Next weekend I'll be using the CNC mill to cut the keyway slots in the new shaft needed for assembling the motor, shimming as required to fit with proper bearing preload, cutting phase/hall slots, and channels to mount the motor to the swing-arm. At which point I'll have a fully assembled bike. Pictures to come in a few days...
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Re: Tank Bike - (Previously: Yet Another Genesis)

Post by Ham » Jul 29 2018 3:38pm

Love a tank bike...keep it going. Just got myself a new frame and temporarily abandoned my own frame mid way through for similar time reasons.

Modifications in process for mid drive mayhem.
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Re: Tank Bike - (Previously: Yet Another Genesis)

Post by thundercamel » Sep 11 2018 1:51pm

Time for some updates :)
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