Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

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macribs
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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Mar 10, 2017 12:22 pm

Yeah lets hope Revolt keeps a tab on this forum too, so that they can take to heart what is needed for Revolts to work for e-bikes.
Bolted to a large prop the cooling is probably a non issue for RC usage. And the torque and power is probably plenty. Hopefully Revolt makes an effort to bring to market a yet another motor, more target e-bike use. With huge torque from still, or at least very low rpm without excessive heat and with better quality parts and less tolerances for the milled parts.

I know price was the thing that sparked the large interest for them Revolts, along with great power ratings. If they made a new, better motor and increased the price 50% or even 100% and had specs they actually met also for e-bike use I would still consider such a motor to be a win. Both for e-bikers and Revolt.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by bigbore » Jun 07, 2017 8:14 am

Did you see this pic on Facebook?
Image

If I buy one of these would be with these tires :D

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Jun 08, 2017 3:18 pm

Still nothing confirmed. No firm date of sales. And nothing so far about the price of this bike.
I wonder if the process of taking the Neematic from a one off project bike to a complete ready to ride bike to actually put down your money and start riding was too long.

It seems Neematic got way much more momentum a year ago then it got today. It feels like fewer people are actually excited and pay attention to what Neematic are doing. And it also seems like Neematic will do complete builds only. No frame kits. Then you got the price, although they price is not yet disclosed there have been some talk about twice the Stealth. In which case I think the price alone will remove momentum for the Neematic.

What would you rather get? A brand new Stealth + a new Zero motorcycle? Or a new Neematic?

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jun 08, 2017 4:34 pm

It will be sad indeed if the price is stealth (USA) like or over...

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jun 08, 2017 11:29 pm

I also noticed this post on facebook from Neematic:
"NEEMATIC Giacomo Rizzetti we will start reservations in June with delivery mid 2018. The expected setup is with bike rims but we can discuss - lukas@neematic.com"

Delivery still one year away??
This is turning into a (bad)joke...

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Jun 09, 2017 3:31 am

Lets hope it is not all vapor ware. When did we first hear of the Neematic, 2015? And delivery 2018?
By normal manufacture standards Neematic should at least be ready to deliver this year. I mean they already build the jigs. They do know how to weld, and the hardware seemed to be sorted a long time ago. First rule of being a manufacturer is to get the manufacturing going so you got products to sell.

Neematic what is the hold up? You can't refine forever. Every manufacturer experience some unexpected turns when a large customer base get hold of their products. Now matter how many hours of trail and error you test you can not and will not be able to iron out every little kink that might only show up in a very special setting, or where the buyers are using the product slightly different then you expected. If you don't get product to market you will end up with nothing more then good intentions a good memories from the testing. Your momentum will vanish and so will your targeted customers.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Cricket_Swe » Jun 09, 2017 5:23 am

I sent them an email, very nice to talk to and super fast response. Seems like a great company, they even gave me the expected price. I hope someone on here does a test ride or gets one and make a big writeup on it. Seems really cool and they said they plan on making the production version fully submersiable! :D :D

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Jun 09, 2017 7:03 am

So what is the expected price?

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Cricket_Swe » Jun 09, 2017 8:39 am

He said "The price estimate is around 8000 euros + taxes and shipping"

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jun 09, 2017 11:17 am

Cricket-Wheelie wrote:He said "The price estimate is around 8000 euros + taxes and shipping"
That would be high but not unreasonable.
But if they are really not ready to ship anything for another year, something is up...

You may want to ask them if mid 2018 is indeed the delivery date, and if so why so many delays...

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Cricket_Swe » Jun 09, 2017 12:04 pm

"Yes, we understand it's not cheap, but we are aiming for the best quality and performance. As of now we are not planning to make kits out of it, because it would impair the whole experience - all of the components are fine tuned to work well together, and it would be difficult for you to get the same performance with parts from varying sources"

"We are now working hard to launch a pre-order campaign so that all who are interested could reserve their bike. Follow us for more updates!"


You can ask all the questions you want: lukas@neematic.com

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Jun 09, 2017 4:04 pm

Pre order? With delivery a year from now? I wote nay. Too much time has already passed and as they get ready to start pre order the still claim delivery is another year away? What happens next spring? More delays? Delivery in 2019? Or 2020 possible?

Don't get me wrong, what little I have seen of Neematic pics and videos got me really excited. But the slow flow of any real information has dragged on too long. A pic every two weeks on insta and face. If I was to buy a Neematic I would rather wait until production is started and we know customers have actually gotten their rides.

History has shown us that many start ups has the best intentions and great plans. But to take those plans and convert it into something tangible, a real product that you can actually order, receive and use now that is another ball game. Because that requires the company to move from the all exciting planning face and get into to more repetitive, monotonic labor intensive production face. Time over time start ups fail to take things to another level and get production running. I don't know if there are troubles sourcing materials, hardware, workspace or lack of endurance by the entrepreneurs. Some even manage to mess things up even with solid fundings and no economical hardships. Like we've seen on Kickstarter et.al several times over the past years.

I am not deeming Neematic down and under, I just think people should be careful putting money into Neematic when they operate with such a long dead line of production. Call me a realist.

I hope Neematic proves me wrong and are able to start production and have a bikes ready for sale next summer. So far a bike like Neematic has not yet been made, that puts e-bikes close to motocross territory. I really wish them the best and hope they get some wind in their sail.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jun 09, 2017 4:16 pm

I could not agree more, given the repeated delays, I would not put any money down at this time, even though I have been really excited about the bike for a while and I am actually planning on buying a high power bike this year.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Cricket_Swe » Jun 10, 2017 2:37 am

They are going to have some competition with the Vector Mid drive I imagine.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Jun 10, 2017 5:48 am

Cricket-Wheelie wrote:They are going to have some competition with the Vector Mid drive I imagine.
Well as far as bicycle-alike goes there might not be that much of a competition, Vector will look more like a moto bike from the pics I've seen. But for people that are after best possible performance for the buck I reckon you are right. The Vector mid drive seems to be a solid, tubular frame with room for huge battery. That is a frame I personally are excited about. But as Vector will be frame kit and most likely ready made like other Vector frames Vector will win the bigger crowd. And I expect the ready made mid drive Vector will be a few dollar cheaper too. The Vector will come to market a year before the Neematic. Should be stock in 5-6 weeks or so.

From the pics it seems Vector have a regular hub motor mounted in the frame. I wonder if that calls for higher voltage battery pack to get the best of both world, super fast acceleration via chain and sprocket yet decent top speed due to higher voltage. Slim pickings for high voltage controllers. I wonder if field weakening (FOC) in todays controllers will be able to handle enough rise in top speed without overheating motor so that low gearing with big rear sprocket can be chosen? Or maybe it will be possible to hammer in a QS 273 or QS 260, that should really get the Vector going, and the extra weight for such a big hub will be hardly any issue as the weight will be low and centralized :twisted:

Good looking mid drive in my eyes.

Vector mid drive:

Image
Last edited by macribs on Jun 10, 2017 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Cricket_Swe » Jun 10, 2017 6:06 am

You're right about the vector looking like a moto bike :shock: that frame is huge, wonder what the price and power will be

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jun 10, 2017 1:32 pm

The Vector is definitely planned to be a non pedaling bike so far, so it is more in competition with the LMX bikes.
I am curious of the drawbacks of using a regular hub motor mounted in the middle versus a true mid drive motor.
My understanding is that true mid drive motors are made to run at higher rpm with reducing gear which gives them better power delivery for a more compact size.

In any case, It leaves limited choice for a high power mid drive pedaling bike with a pedal assist mode.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Jun 10, 2017 1:39 pm

Yes typical smaller mid drives uses hi rpm motors typically up to 10.000 RPM and gets their torque from the gearing to the rear wheel.
There are mid drives in the 2-4000 RPM too.

I think ie the QS 205 got close to 1300 RPM @72v in 3T-. And that is a torque banger even mounted in a hub. So for the torque I think no worries at all. From memory the QS 205 has a max torque of around 100-150 n.m, so 2-3 times that torque should be possible with large rear sprocket. 200-300 n.m is a lot. Of course that will only be peak for very short burst at take off or steep climb.

I haven't done any math for this motor/frame combo but you should probably get more torque on the rear wheel then with any other motor commonly used for e-bikes.

Possible top speed might suffer but for that I need to calculate. Also a field weakening controller will help. If still not satisfied gear down and volt up. And go with a 19" rear wheel.

Edit: It seems QS 205 got 182 n.m of torque. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... e#p1291998

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by agniusm » Jun 12, 2017 6:13 am

Its nothing to compare. Neematic is a piece of art compared to bog standard boxed vector or any other that follows same box rule. Also if they will meet sub 50kg it will be hard to beat. They have started too early publishing info on the bike, one year too early. I don't think there will be much competition in this segment even in 2018 but excitement passes quickly and they should off date releases so exitment was at the peak when they would start taking preorders with half a year delivery date max.
Good stuff to take from this that boys are not looking to push out unfinished product just to get quick buck. Only mistake is early public announcement.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by specializedMX » Jul 02, 2017 12:55 pm

Is it possible to get the file of the bike that I can open with a modelling software?

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jul 02, 2017 12:59 pm

If you are speaking of the Frame blue prints, why would a manufacturer of a new and very interesting frame give you that, and even before they actually released the bike ? :)

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by specializedMX » Jul 02, 2017 1:18 pm

I never realized it's a manufacturer, thought it was homemade :D

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jul 02, 2017 2:15 pm

I also realize I am not sure which frame you were speaking of, The Neematic or the Vector. Although my remark applies to both.

Neematic is a new company who has not released their single bike creation yet
http://www.neematic.com/

Vector is a several years old company who has released several bikes on their original frame, and is about to release a new mid drive frame (the orange picture a few posts back)
http://vectorebike.com/bikes

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by specializedMX » Jul 02, 2017 3:34 pm

Neematic. I was looking to replicate the frame design but just remove the storage box (where I assume is the electronics) and use it as an MTB.

Looking for a frame so I'd go with either neematic's but slightly changed or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw8zS4DArxQ

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jul 02, 2017 4:33 pm

The Neematic frame seems overkill and overweight for just an MTB

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