Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Jul 08, 2017 4:59 pm

Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of a Neematic. The trellis frame and I know they are using quality parts. But so far there ain't no bike to buy and ride. And because the have pushed to release a first batch to next year I am not 100% sure there will be a Neematic.

I am certainly not ruling out ownership of a Neematic, but before committing I would like to know that they are here to stay. And that I don't know before the bike is production and can be ordered online and shipped within a decent time frame.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jul 08, 2017 5:33 pm

Aebrennan wrote: I think supporting companies striving for quality like Stealth (even though I don't like riding hub motor bikes)Lmx and Neematic is important in pushing the e-bike message in the right direction.
I could not agree more, that said, we should not let these companies become complacent like stealth, or act inefficiently like Neematic.
They deserve support if they continue pushing the envelope, and deliver on their promises, not if they start milking an uncompetitive market :)
Last edited by scrambler on Jul 08, 2017 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Aebrennan » Jul 08, 2017 7:48 pm

I'm really disappointed by the constant 1st world "cup is always half empty " mentality.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Ohbse » Jul 08, 2017 8:58 pm

What's disappointing is that they advertised 20kw in the first place.

If you break down the specs, the battery on this is 230-250 18650 cells, likely Samsung 25R, probably 20s or 21. Assuming excellent pack construction and low termination resistance that's going to be something like ~30mohm IR, meaning that at a 200a discharge it's going to put out about 15.5kw. Today a 200a discharge is about the current limit on a controller of the physical footprint they're using. Even if they had some special sauce amazing controller capable of delivering the 270 battery amps required to hit 20kw on 72v nominal, the pack as implemented would be pushed to its limit. You either require substantially more cells (and weight/volume) or you need to move to a more power dense cell, compromising advertised energy capacity and range. So this bike was never realistically capable of 20kw from a battery/controller perspective. Not enough cells.

20kw into a motor with their dimensions is absolutely doable, but starting to get to the point where cooling becomes an issue, conductor size etc becomes substantial, bigger heavier controller becomes more difficult to package etc. From their comments on facebook it appears that they had rated the bike based on what the motor was capable of running, not what they were actually feeding it at any point.

All that being said, they are absolutely correct when they say 15kw is plenty. Given gearing is probably for ~60km/h with field weakening to extend the top speed to the rated 80km/h, stator size and rough KV given the size of the pulleys it should be able to rip wheelies on command. You would really struggle to load up a 50kg bike to get above 15kw unless in sand or snow or you were really, really fat. As somebody who has a 50kg bike with a 200a controller and 240 18650's, it's plenty of power.

I really like all of their engineering choices. It's eerily similar in many specs to what I ended up building for myself. The design with trellis frame, single pivot swing arm with pivot mounted hub derived motor is very close to drawings I did a couple of years ago too. I would absolutely purchase one of these and ride it on the street, if they were actually available. I love the product engineering, but the business decisions and priorities are questionable at best IMO and any excuses around multi year delays are difficult to accept.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jul 08, 2017 9:11 pm

Aebrennan wrote:I'm really disappointed by the constant 1st world "cup is always half empty " mentality.

I am not sure how that relates but OK.

I was just responding to your wish of " pushing the e-bike message in the right direction. "

LMX and Neematic are pushing right now, continuing to innovate an increment.
While doing that Neematic is falling short of promises. It does not remove from their innovation, it is however frustrating
Stealth has moved from being an innovator, from milking a non competitive market with old configurations.
There is nothing wrong, business wise, doing that. And if the market tolerates it, it is even a sound business decision (why would you take risks or work harder if you can just make more money sitting on your technology).
It still makes them a provider of high quality products, but it does not do much to advance or develop the e-bike industry...

And that is all I was saying :)

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Jul 09, 2017 12:44 am

Aebrennan wrote:I'm really disappointed by the constant 1st world "cup is always half empty " mentality.
I don't understand your thinking and I don't understand your reasoning nor your arguments. Should we all stand cheering praising something neither one of us has seen, ridden or purchased? What frustration is displayed here in the thread is all due to Neematic and the way they chose to advertise the bike, the flow of information (lack of), the never committing by not pushing a certain deadline for release.

It is not like their idea of Neematic manifested their brain yesterday. Neematic has been long time planning project. Here is a who is lookup:

Code: Select all

Domain Name: NEEMATIC.COM
Registrar: TUCOWS DOMAINS INC.
Sponsoring Registrar IANA ID: 69
Whois Server: whois.tucows.com
Referral URL: http://www.tucowsdomains.com
Name Server: NS1.SERVERIAI.LT
Name Server: NS2.SERVERIAI.LT
Name Server: NS3.SERVERIAI.LT
Name Server: NS4.SERVERIAI.LT
Status: ok https://icann.org/epp#ok
Updated Date: 29-mar-2017
Creation Date: 24-apr-2015
Expiration Date: 24-apr-2018


Main problem is over selling specs and under delivering information, or even deliberately using inflated specs. Add the lack of commitment to early on put down a set date for release and maybe you see why it is some frustration.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Aebrennan » Jul 09, 2017 1:52 am

I totally agree to the over promised power target not being met is disappointing.
I totally agree the long estimated delivery date is disappointing.
I do not agree with buying some other substandard product for the meantime just coz it's cheap and available now.
I have no doubt that the reason for the long delay is due to lack of financial backing due to a lack of guarantee on return.
It is one thing to have the world excited for the product, the importance is having the world pay for it.
I'm sure that the Neematic investors have had market research showing that the majority of potential customers will rather buy a cheap fake stealth bomber and spend more spare time fixing it rather than riding.
Sad fact of today's false economy.
Just my opinion I might be incorrect but will continue to support the idea and hopefully I will own one.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Cricket_Swe » Jul 09, 2017 3:21 am

In Sweden the Stealth Bomber B52 is about the same cost as this neematic will be with taxes included, if you can believe that. So if the choice was between them, I would gladly wait for the Neematic 100 times out of 100.

The swedish retailer for Stealth sells the B52 for almost 13k USD, or 17k AUD, or 11k EUR. So 8k EUR + taxes for a neematic is a great price considering the immensely better components. But there is still the delivery time etc.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Aebrennan » Jul 09, 2017 3:33 am

Neematic shipped to Australia $13k Aud
Stealth bomber $10.5k Aud

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by bionicon » Jul 09, 2017 3:55 am

My opinion is that the neematic is build with quality parts like fox and pinion,exept from the motor what in my eyes is a b-product. And thats maybe the reason they dont get the 20kw peak.Real 20 kw of power is real hard on bike-parts, and maybe for safetyreason its limited at 15kw.For the motor there are enough alternatives that will fitt in the frame and provide the 20 kw of power.Maybe if they sell without motor?

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by madin88 » Jul 09, 2017 5:05 am

I remember that somebody mentioned the motor is from Revolt.
If it really is (or was), than i would not wonder if the delay comes from that.

The specifiaction of Revolt motors is simply pulled out of thin air and not true. The value of the manufacturing, copper fill etc almost cannot be done worse than it is as some owners reported here in ES.
Revolt should be ashame for selling such crap.

hopefully neematic is taking the motor from a different supplier now.
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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jul 09, 2017 12:20 pm

Cricket_Swe wrote:In Sweden the Stealth Bomber B52 is about the same cost as this neematic will be with taxes included, if you can believe that. So if the choice was between them, I would gladly wait for the Neematic 100 times out of 100.

The swedish retailer for Stealth sells the B52 for almost 13k USD, or 17k AUD, or 11k EUR. So 8k EUR + taxes for a neematic is a great price considering the immensely better components. But there is still the delivery time etc.
This is because of Stealth international pricing policy. Stealth are priced reasonably in Australia, but suffer a huge markup internationally. It is one of the things I find regrettable about the company, even if it may be a good business decision for them.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jul 09, 2017 12:27 pm

Aebrennan wrote:Neematic shipped to Australia $13k Aud
Stealth bomber $10.5k Aud
8,000 USD = 10,500 AUD
Shipping 600USD = 800AUD
Total 11,300 AUD

So 13k AUD is pushing it a bit :)

Is the Neematic expensive ? Sure
Is it worth more than the bomber? Depends on your preference of course, but I would say a case can easily be made for it.
Is it worth 1k more, 2k more? Debatable.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Aebrennan » Jul 09, 2017 4:24 pm

I'm not saying one is better than the other although my riding is better suited to mid drive.
I am stating the cost of my Stealth vs Neematic, and I wish that I could get your claimed exchange rate
1Usd = 1.5 Aud also Neematic is €8000
The Stealth is not very popular in Australia as they cost $2500 more than a new 450cc Jap bike and most people think electric bikes are ugly.
Stealth bomber is not a capable off roarer either, I would claim any rear hub bike is only good for flat surface riding.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jul 09, 2017 6:06 pm

Aebrennan wrote:also Neematic is €8000
I had missed that...
It does make a difference, and not a good one :(

Their New Website is up by the way

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Sean9002 » Jul 09, 2017 7:03 pm

Aebrennan wrote:I would claim any rear hub bike is only good for flat surface riding.
So the +2500km's ive spent on harsh, bumpy, hilly, muddy, rocky trails werent awesome..... :roll:
Sure my mid mount bike can get up really steep stuff when my hub cant, but to say theyre only good for flat riding is laughable!
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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Aebrennan » Jul 09, 2017 7:47 pm

I did say it is my opinion, obviously hard to compare acceptable ride quality/condition between individuals.
I'm sure you enjoy your riding as much as anyone
I come from riding dirt bikes in state forests so I say my stealth is horrible on rutted out rocky single trails. It has Vague rear end feel that is too harsh, and overheats both the motor and controller when ridden like a dirt bike.
I know I could have spent a year on this forum talking whilst building the best ever hub motor bike and saved $3k but I want to ride now silently in the bush close to home.
I love my bomber on fast flatter trails, I love my Oset on rocks and riding trails with my son on his Torrot
I miss the power a 450 Dirtbike has but am addicted to the silent riding now (and have little spare time)

All I'm suggesting is that if Neematic has a possibility of producing something close to what people like myself are searching for they should be supported not hacked on for taking too long.
If Ktm sold the freeride e in Australia I would buy one but after many requests it's not happening
If Alta sold the redshift in Australia I would buy one but after many requests it's not happening
Once again this is my opinion (maybe others too?)

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jul 09, 2017 7:54 pm

If you are considering the Alta, what about the Zero FX, they are In Australia.

In the lighter category, have you checked if Emotion can get to you?
http://emmoto.com/models/

I wish Husqvarna had gone ahead with their project
https://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/mo ... 27835.html

Or KTM with that one
http://www.tuvie.com/ktm-delta-electric ... peed-bike/

In the mean time , the Neematic is the most exciting lightweight high power mid drive one for sure, so we will keep dreaming and hope it does not end up like the two above.
:)

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Ohbse » Jul 09, 2017 8:18 pm

bionicon wrote:My opinion is that the neematic is build with quality parts like fox and pinion,exept from the motor what in my eyes is a b-product. And thats maybe the reason they dont get the 20kw peak.Real 20 kw of power is real hard on bike-parts, and maybe for safetyreason its limited at 15kw.For the motor there are enough alternatives that will fitt in the frame and provide the 20 kw of power.Maybe if they sell without motor?
Read my analysis above - the power is limited because it's not possible to get 20kw of power output from the battery and controller as packaged. We do not have enough information about the motor to say it's good or bad - Neematic replied to me on facebook saying that the motor is capable of 20kw, but they're unable to run it that hard - where are you getting the impression that the motor is poor quality?

There's no way you can easily package another motor within the physical constraints, this is unlike any conventional mid-drive design as it's a stressed member and also the swing arm pivot - the motor is quite literally part of the frame. There's zero chance you can buy this bike without the motor because it would come in two pieces!

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Sean9002 » Jul 09, 2017 10:50 pm

Aebrennan wrote:I did say it is my opinion, obviously hard to compare acceptable ride quality/condition between individuals.
I'm sure you enjoy your riding as much as anyone
I come from riding dirt bikes in state forests so I say my stealth is horrible on rutted out rocky single trails. It has Vague rear end feel that is too harsh, and overheats both the motor and controller when ridden like a dirt bike.
I know I could have spent a year on this forum talking whilst building the best ever hub motor bike and saved $3k but I want to ride now silently in the bush close to home.
I love my bomber on fast flatter trails, I love my Oset on rocks and riding trails with my son on his Torrot
I miss the power a 450 Dirtbike has but am addicted to the silent riding now (and have little spare time)

All I'm suggesting is that if Neematic has a possibility of producing something close to what people like myself are searching for they should be supported not hacked on for taking too long.
If Ktm sold the freeride e in Australia I would buy one but after many requests it's not happening
If Alta sold the redshift in Australia I would buy one but after many requests it's not happening
Once again this is my opinion (maybe others too?)
Its an apples and oranges thing, youll never feel like your brappin' a 450 on something that is essentially a bicycle. Even the neematic is still not trying to be a motorcycle. Have you looked at doing a build yourself? Something like Sketch's supermoto but with knobbies etc? I have an oset aswell, great little bikes, what model is yours? I have a 20 that ive modded. Yeh it a crying shame we dont have eFreerides or the Alta here....did they give you any reasons why or no response at all?
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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jul 09, 2017 11:37 pm

Sean9002 wrote:youll never feel like your brappin' a 450 on something that is essentially a bicycle.
If you consider the power to weight ratio, I think you can be pretty close actually :)

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Aebrennan » Jul 09, 2017 11:51 pm

I believe the right power/weight ratio with the right balance of componentry can get close. 50kg 25hp is on par with a Dirtbike 50hp-100kg

I have a Honda 250 frame (same as Sketch) ready to go, after much research an emraxx and controller and battery should get the desired result but still weighing 100kg and likely to cost $20k and probably not great balance for off roading ,so I have postponed that idea.(I have contacted the Ktm motor supplier so may still happen..)

Ktm Australia may release their e bikes here next year, I've heard that they currently have 10 bikes at Hq in Sydney for testing....
Alta do not reply to emails.

I have a Qulbix 76r frame that I'm building as a lightweight mid drive using Lmx motor in my nonexistent spare time.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by bionicon » Jul 10, 2017 12:40 am

I know the motor is from revolt, i did test the bike (just on pavement grounds)there it seems ok but couldn t test the full power(germany messe)I spoke one of the guys he tells me at that time they getting just arround 8 kw out the revolt motor.Revolt is not known as top quality,maybe they had to rework the revolt motor compleetly and is that the reason for the delay?Maybe the guys from neematic will clear this out themself?

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by madin88 » Jul 10, 2017 11:03 am

Revolt motors are overspecd.
i wonder why the performance graphs are logarithmic. Check it out guys!
must be intended for clowding issues.
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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by bigbore » Jul 10, 2017 11:27 am

Aebrennan wrote:I did say it is my opinion, obviously hard to compare acceptable ride quality/condition between individuals.
I'm sure you enjoy your riding as much as anyone
I come from riding dirt bikes in state forests so I say my stealth is horrible on rutted out rocky single trails. It has Vague rear end feel that is too harsh, and overheats both the motor and controller when ridden like a dirt bike.
I know I could have spent a year on this forum talking whilst building the best ever hub motor bike and saved $3k but I want to ride now silently in the bush close to home.
I love my bomber on fast flatter trails, I love my Oset on rocks and riding trails with my son on his Torrot
I miss the power a 450 Dirtbike has but am addicted to the silent riding now (and have little spare time)

All I'm suggesting is that if Neematic has a possibility of producing something close to what people like myself are searching for they should be supported not hacked on for taking too long.
If Ktm sold the freeride e in Australia I would buy one but after many requests it's not happening
If Alta sold the redshift in Australia I would buy one but after many requests it's not happening
Once again this is my opinion (maybe others too?)
I read all you wrote with interest and wanted to know just out of curiosity ... but do you own or ride a Stealth bike?
I'm from Italy and have been riding a modified Stealth Bomber from 2015. I bought it used from a ES member and I've already spent on it more than what a new 2016 Honda Africa Twin would cost.
I'm from enduro motorbikes similar to you and a current owner of a Honda VTR 1000F.
I've been loving my Stealth Bomber and the only stuff I do not like is to ride on rough terrain where In my opinion could be dangerous if used like a motorbike that's the only limit of my Bomber and for this I am interested in a powerful mid drive alternative.

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