Street machine

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Emoto   1 kW

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Street machine

Post by Emoto » Sep 07 2016 9:06am

Well after my first build https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=50752 ive spent a long time flipping between types of builds.
So im quite sure this is what i need in life :) These are my components so far.
Motor qs 273x40mm this is apparently a ebike motor 18kg :shock: Ive moved into an apartment since my first build so i cant fabricate a custom ali frame like before, if i could ive some good experience behind me now but this will have to be a '' choose component build, should still be fun... so short list of pos frames atm FUTR alpha or a enduro or pos a qullbix frame mmmm.
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Last edited by Emoto on Oct 02 2016 10:34am, edited 2 times in total.

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Emoto   1 kW

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Re: Street machine

Post by Emoto » Sep 08 2016 8:25am

One thing i have to sort is a capable controller for this motor in the 72v 250+ batt amp region , a sine-wave with Bluetooth to android so i can monitor batt volts/ amp and motor temp/ ect.. doesn't have to log but that would be nice...
I know about sabvoton but there are a few alternative sine controllers poping up now so if you know of a manufacturer that i can try please post a link or pm.

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macribs   1 GW

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Re: Street machine

Post by macribs » Sep 08 2016 4:25pm

*subscribed*

That will be a mean machine.

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Emoto   1 kW

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Re: Street machine

Post by Emoto » Sep 13 2016 9:09am

Yeah hope so -- taming that motor in a spoked rim will be one of the big challenges ....

Update-- After a lot of thought it was a tossup between the 140 and the enduro contacted a member just to have a look at the enduro wasn't expecting much, but when i first saw it i was quite surprised of the quality of paint was good welds looked ok. overall happy to order one , hay its not a custom light ali frame as i had made in my first build, but its a steel swinger that i can find a larger selection of welders to contact if i need to modify for this motor and steel should give me some warning signs if im pushing it, and its predominantly for squirting on the road so should make a good STREET MACHINE :)

So The owner made me a offer i couldnt refuse yesterday...next thing i knew i was driving home with my new frame Thanks again Quokka :mrgreen:
It was freaky feeling driving home thinking no fabricating / hours of designing / machining / painting as before.
Compared to a few years ago were pretty spoiled these days with specific e- frames .
Right now im looking at modifying the droups to accommodate this motor.
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Im_Getting_Better   1 mW

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Re: Street machine

Post by Im_Getting_Better » Sep 15 2016 10:33am

Just went through your old thread and WOW you did an amazing job. Really looking forward to seeing this all nice and finished.

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Quokka   1 kW

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Re: Street machine

Post by Quokka » Sep 16 2016 5:28am

Subd, need to keep an eye out for this thing :wink:
Qulbix Q76R+ QS205+MaxE

SlowCo   10 kW

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Re: Street machine

Post by SlowCo » Sep 16 2016 12:49pm

Also subscribing. Good luck and enjoy building it.

John in CR   100 GW

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Re: Street machine

Post by John in CR » Sep 16 2016 10:43pm

It will make for an awesome street machine. To take advantage of your torque potential think about lowering and stretching the wheelbase. When I was running a 273x50 motor back in 2011-12 keeping the front down was my biggest issue, and that was with half of my battery in front of the headset on the forks, a 140cm+ wheelbase, and heavy me so low that it was impossible to pedal.

BTW what is the axle diameter and dropout width on that motor? I was running a much heavier scooter hubbie 273 and wouldn't mind something easier to fit. It is the lower pole count 273 I hope?

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Emoto   1 kW

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Re: Street machine

Post by Emoto » Sep 17 2016 9:05am

Im_Getting_Better --- Yeah quite the opposite approach huh . for this motor size really would be best doing a custom frame again but circumstance has dictated this approach, so far i know its going to be a black theme and . supermoto-ish.
Quokka Pressure is on now :D
SlowCo Thanks
John in CR wrote:It will make for an awesome street machine. To take advantage of your torque potential think about lowering and stretching the wheelbase. When I was running a 273x50 motor back in 2011-12 keeping the front down was my biggest issue, and that was with half of my battery in front of the headset on the forks, a 140cm+ wheelbase, and heavy me so low that it was impossible to pedal.

BTW what is the axle diameter and dropout width on that motor? I was running a much heavier scooter hubbie 273 and wouldn't mind something easier to fit. It is the lower pole count 273 I hope?
Wheel base is around 1.250mm I used to ride a yz 490 had a nickname '' the big pig '' because its power band was so aggro one of the most exciting bikes i had.
I remember a random guy came up to us he was around 50 he said nice can i have a ride, i said err no not this one, he replied i used to be uk trials champion ! and two other people confirmed that so i thought ok, be carefull i said yeah sure he replied. And sure enough he went straight into a vertical uncontrollable wheelie weaving left and right... being a good rider he finally survived the power band wheel came slowly down and rode it straight back and said in a broken nervous voice err thanks man , its wheelies were epic........ i hope this is a little bit like that.
Was your 273 A qs was it spoked ? afaik one 273x40 has broken rim spoke holes in 17'' / 18'' alloy moto rims and funny enough so far and a radial laced is surviving in a 18''
Axel between the flats is 12mm dropout is 152mm
Qs are quoting similar torque figures as the 50mm hard to believe..... one thing i dont like is its 100nm more than the 205 but they have not increased the axle size proportionately

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soaresdacosta   1 kW

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Re: Street machine

Post by soaresdacosta » Sep 17 2016 9:41am

Cant wait to see this.

Luis.

John in CR   100 GW

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Re: Street machine

Post by John in CR » Sep 17 2016 1:55pm

Mine has built on scooter rim and the 13" scooter tire on it gives it a 20" OD. If I recall it's has 15mm flats on a 25mm or 1" axle. At 74V nominal I kept tuning my 36fet up til I settled on a peak draw of 420A battery side with a 1:1.25 ratio, so 525A phase limit. On launches I was only able to hit peak current after about 100m by standing on the pedals and leaning as far over the bars as I could manage and the front wheel would skip on the ground with intermittent contact. I was about 280lbs at the time. Mine is wound with 1.5 turns for a Kv in the 18-19rpm/v range, so my 8awg reharness of the phase wires is a perfect match for phase windings. Such low resulting phase resistance makes running hot a non-issue with a lightweight bike except at high speed (due to the .5mm stator lams and very high magnet count, but I did vent it with internal blades to help stimulate intake on one side and exhaust on the other. If your newer version has thinner lams and the lower slot and pole count, you may need no cooling mods at all unless you run distances at highway speeds.

No way I'd ever recommend straight radial lacing, because it's simply wrong for any powered wheel, but you should be fine with regular lacing. With the smaller axle I would suggest being sure to let off the throttle as you go off curbs or wheel leaves the ground otherwise, because the same torque rating as a 203 is nonsense. For an equal width of stator you have 35% greater magnet area working on a 35% greater radius (1.8X the torque potential), so even with 40mm vs a 50mm 203, you have almost 50% more torque potential.

I left mine tuned for 30kw+ peak input geared for a 67mph top speed for everyday riding, but after a few too many times going vertical trying to gently twist a sensitive throttle with an old crap throttle response Infinion controller, I settled on using a 3 speed switch for normal riding. ie switch to 50% speed just for launch with a quick switch to 100% for a smooth takeoff and seamless acceleration. Be careful not to switch too late using that method unless you let off the accelerator. That was in the days before Zombiess Throttle Tamers, controllers with programmable throttle settings, the CA3 throttle control, etc.

You'll definitely have a big shlt eating EV grin with your new ride. Unless yours is wound to a potential wasting low Kv, I think your biggest issue will be finding a sufficient controller to power it, because I assure you that you want the high battery current and low phase/batt limit ratio, not the common 2.5:1 phase limit that can't deliver high torque in the mid range speeds. Even pedal power can do wheelies at low speed with bicycle geometries, so doing it with a motor doesn't impress me. Cruising behind a car at 30mph or more, and instantly passing them with a twist of the throttle or doing power wheelies at speed (like LFP's picture on DeathBike) are true displays of both power and torque . Even if it means non-silent running, you'll want higher current than the sine controllers I know of are capable, since you don't easily have the ability to run dual lesser controllers. I'd suggest something with 24 irfp4468's or (4568's if you run 22s to 30s) at a minimum, since you want to push for real performance, not the 10kw or less that passes for high performance around here. With my 36fet 4110 controller it got hot, and even after modding for fan ventilation I still worried about it blowing all the time, you want absolute worry-free reliability.

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Street machine

Post by Chalo » Sep 17 2016 2:25pm

Umm, that's not a street machine. It doesn't have a plate, and it's way too powerful to be street legal anywhere in the First World.

What you have there is a machine that's only legal to use on private property. Streets are public.
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macribs   1 GW

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Re: Street machine

Post by macribs » Sep 17 2016 2:27pm

Check with Vito about the Apt 96600 controller. 600 A peak. Can take 100+v. 36 Fet's.
It is big but powerful and should mate well with the 273.

litespeed   100 kW

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Re: Street machine

Post by litespeed » Sep 17 2016 6:26pm

+1 to what macribs said!

I'm still in the 10kw zone and just amazed by it......I'm such the looser!

Can't wait to try 14KW but that would be my MaxE limit.

Tom
I'm married so you know I'm no stranger to pain!

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Emoto   1 kW

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Re: Street machine

Post by Emoto » Sep 18 2016 8:32am

Hey Luis Me too! im not rushing it Though :)

John That is exciting performance and very interesting data thanks that axel is better ,going to nag vito, id like 250 dc 500 phase should be ok , im 70 kg after a christmas dinner.

When i first saw this 273 was only 40mm i held off but as you say the leverage advantage is where this motor shines and 40mm stator just means its lighter add its a 152mm droupout and has a freewheel.
That why im going for it.Also ts 5.4kg more than a v3 205 x50mm with 100nm more. its the next step up if you have a frame capable.

Afaik 205x50 v3 9.3 kv 154nm
273x40 v3 11.0 kv 265nm according to QS its close to a 273x50 8kw nm, think they have there numbers mixed up a bit.
Qs state pole pairs 16/32.

So i think you will like that 11kv .
Agree on power a hella 9c can pull the wheel up at low speed in a jerky fashion. higher speed wind on power is more desirable / usable for this build, Still calculating controllers... and batts lipos of course.

Mac i saw that controller big bugger 6kg better for the 273x50 8kw imo 500 phase should be plenty, had a offer to get a kelly or mobipus still looking/researching.
This guy had some big controllers not listed now http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 82306.html
But i really like the idea of Bluetooth its the future i think .

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Re: Street machine

Post by John in CR » Sep 18 2016 11:49am

It has both more magnet area AND that magnet area is working at a greater radius (longer lever), so more torque is possible. There's also significantly more surface area, and at the perimeter where it's most important that extra surface area is moving faster relative to the outside air for any given speed using the same wheel size, so those combine for significant better heat dissipation.

Great news on the lower pole count, so that most likely means the thin lams (less iron loss), and deeper stator teeth (more copper so less copper loss for a given amount of torque).

On good roads extra weight in the wheel is a non-issue, so don't sweat the extra 6kg, because you won't feel it except on bumps or if you pick up the bike. Most of the ill effects on uneven roads can be tuned away with good suspension tuning. The covers on my 273 are super thick and heavy, and if yours are similar then there's at least a kilo that could be trimmed without even opening it to the environment. I would like to see a more sculpted exterior that they have on their 273's for scooters, so if I order some of those 273's for bikes I'll see what they can do. Sculpted means more surface area, so better heat transfer.

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macribs   1 GW

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Re: Street machine

Post by macribs » Sep 18 2016 1:59pm

Man those 273's are wild beasts. Imagine what a sprinkle of FF and a heat sink will do.
Emoto, still got all your machining equipments? That 273 could easily loose some weight by shaving between flanges. Don't know about the side covers.
The 205 I am certain got aluminum side covers, as they are really light weight. So might be the case for 273 as well. If not you could always do carbon fiber covers. :twisted: And then you have saved enough weight for a fat controller like the Apt 96600. 600 A should be a sweet match for the 273. Never settle :)

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Emoto   1 kW

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Re: Street machine

Post by Emoto » Sep 18 2016 2:01pm

JOHN
QS 273 40H V3 45X4T vs QS 205 50H V3 24X5T Stators
Iooks like a hexagonal way of mating shaft to alloy stator on 273 no cheap key way ... looks solid
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macribs   1 GW

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Re: Street machine

Post by macribs » Sep 18 2016 2:32pm

emoto the 1.jpg pic is a little off, seems it got cropped in a way that don't show axle. Care to upload a new one?

litespeed   100 kW

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Re: Street machine

Post by litespeed » Sep 18 2016 5:11pm

That motor is huge.

Tom
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Samd   1.21 GW

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Re: Street machine

Post by Samd » Sep 18 2016 9:17pm

Sub'd.

The APT isn't going to fit that bike too well for shape. I will get you the dims and specs on the mobipus 72200 but it does allow you to configure variable flux levels at different speeds and throw it up to a windows based wifi dash.
I wouldn't recommend a mobipus 72600 controller on a QS273 axle, one did break previously at speed. If you haven't bought the motor I might have an option on a custom hub there also, not sure about the frame taking it however.
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Emoto   1 kW

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Re: Street machine

Post by Emoto » Sep 19 2016 8:31am

Actually they might still be using a key way..anyway its still a nice hex mating....
Tom yeah lacing will be fun.
Samd wrote:Sub'd.

The APT isn't going to fit that bike too well for shape. I will get you the dims and specs on the mobipus 72200 but it does allow you to configure variable flux levels at different speeds and throw it up to a windows based wifi dash.
I wouldn't recommend a mobipus 72600 controller on a QS273 axle, one did break previously at speed. If you haven't bought the motor I might have an option on a custom hub there also, not sure about the frame taking it however.
Yeah i should have been more specific about controller goals in original post the apt is good bang for buck but i would like to get controller inside if poss that way i play to the strengths of the frames large capacity ..[ inside width is 140mm if its of any interest to any one ] , after measuring frame and now doing some rough calculating batt size discharge rates and ah. i might just be able to fit one of those more square form controllers inside. Found some data on the mobipus smaller form than kelly, there is a 150/300 if these are them http://www.mobipus.com/mc-p3.html . i wonder if the wifi would work on a windows phone he he. on motor shaft here is a little milling trick i did on my first build on my v1 cro when i got it after seeing the phase wire grove going past the shoulder into the threaded section weakening the shaft.
Look forward to info on the mobipus controllers.
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ridethelightning   1 MW

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Re: Street machine

Post by ridethelightning » Oct 11 2016 4:17am

macribs wrote: could easily loose some weight by shaving between flanges.
I keep telling my gal this is a good idea :wink:

https://youtu.be/h_G6T2JSFNQ?t=470

this russian guy 'StolzUser' has made some good footage of qs273 capability. im sure many have already seen some of it.(though probably tame compared to some of John in Cr's hummonster freeway dashes)
the low center of gravity his bike has, along with the savage power...looks like a nice sturdy ride. sometimes i think a little extra weight at those speeds could be a good thing, especially when it gets windy.

heres another showing the bikes-
https://youtu.be/h_G6T2JSFNQ

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Samd   1.21 GW

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Re: Street machine

Post by Samd » Oct 11 2016 4:44am

Still laughing at the flanges gag.


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Re: Street machine

Post by Jimboyr6 » Oct 11 2016 5:12am

Subed

Flanges lol
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