Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Show off your E-bike creation here.
User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7147
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Chalo » Jan 05 2018 4:09pm

You can do that, sure. But you are limited to rims that don't have alternating tilt or stagger in their holes, which is not very many of them. And when truing, you have in effect half as many places to pull on the rim-- the same basic problem as paired-spoke wheels.

You would run into the problem that paired-spoke wheels were designed to circumvent, which is the rim zigzagging from side to side when the opposing spokes are too far apart from each other.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

Buk___   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 750
Joined: Jul 28 2017 5:59pm

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Buk___ » Jan 05 2018 4:40pm

Chalo wrote:
Jan 05 2018 4:09pm
You can do that, sure. But you are limited to rims that don't have alternating tilt or stagger in their holes, which is not very many of them. And when truing, you have in effect half as many places to pull on the rim-- the same basic problem as paired-spoke wheels.

You would run into the problem that paired-spoke wheels were designed to circumvent, which is the rim zigzagging from side to side when the opposing spokes are too far apart from each other.
I also tried a 2 cross pattern, but it probably suffers the same flaws:
36AlignedFlangeHoles2Cross.jpg
36AlignedFlangeHoles2Cross.jpg (88.23 KiB) Viewed 1413 times
Last edited by Buk___ on Jan 05 2018 6:11pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Jan 05 2018 5:57pm

Thanks for the input. You guys had pretty much the same ideas I did today... I guess my options are:
  1. get 9 longer spokes and 9 shorter spokes with a length difference +/- the length of what the offset should be
  2. try to do a 1 cross or pseudo-radial lacing that may not be strong enough for Atlanta potholes
  3. try and get BMS Battery to send me a new motor or outer shell for my existing motor
  4. take the hit and get a different motor from another source
This friggin' sucks. I really don't want to have to have 3 different length spokes on my wheel so I can do a 2 cross. And I really don't think a radial lacing pattern would be strong enough to use for a daily commuter in Atlanta Ga. We have seriously shitty roads here. It's more like paved potholes rather than streets with some potholes in them.

I've emailed BMS Battery hoping that I hear back from them and they'll provide warranty service for this manufacturing defect.

Just so I can plan for the worst case scenario, what would a comparably small hub motor be? Are there any Bafang hubs that are around that 100-110mm size that are available from a US source?
~01~

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7147
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Chalo » Jan 06 2018 4:47am

Radially laced wheels are every bit as strong as cross-laced wheels, except in torsion. Your hub shell doesn't even allow true radial lacing, so the amount of torque that the small motor can put out shouldn't be a problem.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Jan 09 2018 6:31pm

Good news!

BMSbattery is going to send me a new Q100H shell along with tools and instructions to change-out the defective hub shell for a good one.

I'm actually looking forward to having specialized tools for taking the hub apart; they may prove to be handy to have in the future. I know some people have made rigs to take these apart, so I'll post pics of what they send when they arrive for comparison.
~01~

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7147
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Chalo » Jan 12 2018 2:13am

That is good news indeed. Let us know when it all comes together.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 25117
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by amberwolf » Jan 12 2018 3:27am

BTW, there is one other option you didn't list: --redrilling one flange of the hub with the correct hole placement, in-between the existing holes. ;)

It'd be a bit weaker flange than usual, but I suspect it's strong enough to work fine like that.


(I redrilled my MXUS's flange for smaller holes than what it came with, so I could use regular bicycle spokes on it without washers or other bandaids to keep the heads from just coming right thru the giant holes it came with--no issues with the flange yet, despite the loads and potholes)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=86180
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... A#p1261116

Hopefully the new parts and tools they're sending you will fix the issue, but if not, you do have the above as an option. :)

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Jan 14 2018 6:44pm

Huh, that's a good suggestion too. I hadn't thought of trying to drill a new set of holes in the flange. It's good to hear that that technique worked for you. Hopefully it won't be necessary, but I'll keep it in mind.

While I wait for the new hub shell and tools, I got some other goodies for the build. My Phaserunner and the last bits I need to build the battery pack arrived, so I'll have some stuff to keep me busy while I wait to finish the wheel.
~01~

User avatar
Papa   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 392
Joined: May 13 2008 1:06am
Location: NW

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Papa » Jan 14 2018 8:48pm

zro-1 wrote:
Oct 30 2017 6:35pm
This may be useful to the rest of the forum: I was able to decipher the info printed on the motor casing. Here's what the motor reads:

AKM17062901002
AAD3620A
H


AKM = the manufacturer, Akiema (or however that's spelled)
170629 = the date of manufacture (2017-06-29)
01002 = The motor model and version (0100 = Q100, 2 = version 2)

AAD = I haven't been able to figure that out yet, but I believe it is the code for the style of gears/brakes the motor can use (freewheel + disk/rim brake)
36 = 36 volts (yeah, I'll follow that :D :wink: )
20A = 20 amps
H = the H-series of the Q100
I have two, recently purchased (12/2017) Q100H 328 - Both front hubs.
Gears - motor 15t / first stage planets 36t / second stage planets 23t / final ring 78t

Ratio = 8.139

AKM17092301002
AAD3616A-H
QC-PASS round sticker stating "16 Inches" (white/green)

AKM17092301017
AAD3616A-H
QC-PASS round sticker stating "16 Inches" (white/green)
~ Recycle... Ride your bike again ~

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Jan 15 2018 8:08pm

That's great info Papa! Thank you for sharing it on this thread.

I got my pack welded and the BMS and solid state switched hot-glued in place. I'll post some pics of that in a few minutes.
~01~

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Jan 15 2018 8:18pm

OK, so here's the pics of the pack in progress...

First I used the very nice welder by Aulakiria to weld the parallel connections
IMG_0121.jpg
IMG_0121.jpg (100.61 KiB) Viewed 1244 times
Then I knocked out the series connections
IMG_0123.jpg
IMG_0123.jpg (78.35 KiB) Viewed 1244 times
I tested the voltage after the welding was done and the pack read at a nice steady 49.95V. I did test each cell ahead of time to make sure they were all ok, and every cell read ~3.64V (back when I first got the cells from Vruzend).

Next was placing the BMS and the on/off solid sate switch. I got the BMS from Vruzend as well, and I got the solid state switch from Luna Cycle.
IMG_0125.jpg
IMG_0125.jpg (104.61 KiB) Viewed 1244 times
I still need to solder all the wires to the battery, but I'm going to wait till tomorrow after work to do that.


EDIT:
I took this pack apart and I did indeed damage the insulation on the batteries by welding the 3rd middle series strip. I got insanely lucky that I didn't weld a short into the pack and set my house on fire. DO NOT weld series strips in the middle of your cell pairs!
Last edited by zro-1 on Mar 31 2018 11:44pm, edited 3 times in total.
~01~

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Jan 16 2018 8:58pm

I got the BMS and on/off switch all wired in tonight. I verified the on/off switch is working correctly and I'm testing the BMS by hooking it up to the charger now.
IMG_0129.jpg
IMG_0129.jpg (102.83 KiB) Viewed 1218 times
Wires all soldered on
IMG_0130.jpg
IMG_0130.jpg (83.62 KiB) Viewed 1218 times
Closeup of the balance wires and primary discharge wires
IMG_0131.jpg
IMG_0131.jpg (118.38 KiB) Viewed 1218 times
Charger port and on/off button
IMG_0132.jpg
IMG_0132.jpg (81.17 KiB) Viewed 1218 times
Same, showing the button illuminated when the power is on.
~01~

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Jan 21 2018 11:02pm

Well. I got my battery shrink-wrapped and into the seat bag, and I hated it. It made the bike feel really top-heavy and running wires cleanly was going to be a pain in the ass. So... I decided I'd deconstruct it and make a backpack battery.

EDIT:
I think that a lot of my first impressions were due to the major change in rides. I was coming from a crazy-heavy old-school FS MTB with a BBSHD and battery on the down tube, to a super-light no suspension track style single speed frame. The ride was so different from what I was used to I think I jumped to conclusions about the battery being in a seat-bag. As I'd gotten some miles under the new frame, I realized that a lot of what I thought was the battery weight was just the change in weight ratio between myself and the bike. I mis-interpreted the nimbleness of the bike to the batteries tossing the bike around. By no means should you discard the idea of a seat-bag battery based on that one comment I made. I was probably very wrong. Back to the original post....

I recently got a really nice waterproof backpack from Timbuk2 that will perfectly fit a 13s2p battery down in the bottom of it. So that's what I'm going to do.

Here's the plan:
newBatteryLayout.jpg
newBatteryLayout.jpg (97.85 KiB) Viewed 1139 times
I'll post pics of it when it's done.
Last edited by zro-1 on Mar 31 2018 12:18am, edited 1 time in total.
~01~

Buk___   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 750
Joined: Jul 28 2017 5:59pm

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Buk___ » Jan 21 2018 11:38pm

zro-1 wrote:
Jan 21 2018 11:02pm
Well. I got my battery shrink-wrapped and into the seat bag, and I hated it. It made the bike feel really top-heavy and running wires cleanly was going to be a pain in the ass. So... I decided I'd deconstruct it and make a backpack battery.
Isn't moving the batteries even higher (onto your back) going to make the entire system -- you and the bike -- even more top heavy?

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Jan 21 2018 11:45pm

Yes. But the weight is on me, rather than being on the bike. With the battery pack in the seat bag it felt like the bike wanted to tip over more than I intended it to. If the weight is on me I figure my body will compensate better.

I know before I was saying that I already had a bunch of weight on my back and didn't want more, but after feeling the weight at the top of the bike (basically between my legs) I wasn't happy with it.

If I wasn't going for a stealthy build, I'd just toss the battery down in the triangle and be done with it, but I don't want a big battery in there.

My game plan now is to attach a magnetic connector to the bottom of the seat and have the battery in my backpack.
~01~

Buk___   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 750
Joined: Jul 28 2017 5:59pm

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Buk___ » Jan 22 2018 12:18am

zro-1 wrote:
Jan 21 2018 11:45pm
Yes. But the weight is on me, rather than being on the bike. With the battery pack in the seat bag it felt like the bike wanted to tip over more than I intended it to. If the weight is on me I figure my body will compensate better.

I know before I was saying that I already had a bunch of weight on my back and didn't want more, but after feeling the weight at the top of the bike (basically between my legs) I wasn't happy with it.

If I wasn't going for a stealthy build, I'd just toss the battery down in the triangle and be done with it, but I don't want a big battery in there.

My game plan now is to attach a magnetic connector to the bottom of the seat and have the battery in my backpack.
Struck me that you might fit your 26 batteries like this:
junk.jpg
junk.jpg (51 KiB) Viewed 1132 times
. And if they were housed in some sort of semi-rigid container of the right color, it would almost disappear.

Then I guess it'd be whether you could live with a Q factor to clear an extra 20mm each side of the downtube.

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Jan 22 2018 12:41am

I actually had considered that but gave it up pretty quickly.
  1. Its even more bulky/wider than a downtube battery
  2. It'll still look like I have shit strapped to my bike
  3. I'm tired of wide Q factors
  4. I wear a backpack anyway commuting and shopping
  5. I finally have a comfortable waterproof backpack that I don't feel puts a battery at risk
  6. There's now a magnetic connector in case I fall off the bike
Most of my previous concerns were with having something that could go into thermal runaway and burst into flames on my back, but with a BMS, magnetic connector, and a padded, waterproof bag, I think it should be ok. And nothing is more stealthy than a battery in a backpack. The only things on my bike will be the controller and motor.
~01~

RollerBoy   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 11
Joined: Oct 04 2015 8:44pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by RollerBoy » Jan 30 2018 9:40pm

Consider adding a rigid backboard to the long backpack battery... it will probably save you grief and only add a little weight and volume. Another trick is to wrap each cell in Scotch Shipping Strapping tape before gluing. Once you try it with a high temperature glue gun you'll see the mechanical advantage, plus it will improve durability and insulation between cells.

What part of Atlanta?

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 01 2018 6:11pm

I got the backpack battery built. I'm very happy with the results.

Pics:
new-bat-1.jpg
I love the welds the BOSS welder makes
new-bat-1.jpg (85.81 KiB) Viewed 1032 times
new-bat-2.jpg
BMS wired in and wires taped down
new-bat-2.jpg (95.5 KiB) Viewed 1032 times
new-bat-3.jpg
Battery wrapped in foam and testing charging/balancing
new-bat-3.jpg (93.53 KiB) Viewed 1032 times
new-bat-4.jpg
Wrapped with Luna's thick rubbery wrap (it's like an inner-tube)
new-bat-4.jpg (88.95 KiB) Viewed 1032 times
new-bat-5.jpg
Close-up of the charging port
new-bat-5.jpg (48.78 KiB) Viewed 1032 times
new-bat-6.jpg
Close-up of the discharge cables
new-bat-6.jpg (45.23 KiB) Viewed 1032 times
I also ordered both ends of a Rosenberger magnetic port for the discharge wire connection which will go under my seat. The connector is rated for 60V/30A and my battery will only be 54.6V (peak)/20A (max) so it should work perfectly. I couldn't find it on Luna any more, so I ordered it from Mouser. Here's the links if you want to get a set. It was $10 less on mouser than what Luna had been asking.

http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDet ... 2d1000%2dC
http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDet ... 2d1000%2dC

I'm still waiting on BMSbattery to send me the replacement shell for the Q100H
~01~

User avatar
eCue   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 631
Joined: Nov 03 2017 5:14pm
Location: Vancouver Island , Canada

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by eCue » Feb 01 2018 9:53pm

Nice job that will work great in the water bladder section in a day pack,the last few days Ive been testing a 13s6p pack in a daypack the weight is inconsequential it does take up space so Im thinking for grocery runs to throw the 1/3 smaller 36v pack on the bikes back half rack for more pack space , problem solved.
For longer runs will carry one on the bike one in the day pack sharing the weight.
Solar charge station on wheels join the Revolution

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 01 2018 10:37pm

Yeah, this pack fits great in both the bladder pocket of my camelback day pack (vertically) as well as in the bottom of my timbuk2 laptop backpack (horizontally). It's a bit heavy with both my laptop and battery in the big bag, but the weight is nicely distributed, so it's not a huge deal. It feels like carrying around a 2nd gen iPad in terms of weight. I don't have a scale to weigh it with though.

I took a pic of the battery next to a 3s1p 5Ah Turnigy Graphine battery for size comparison (this is 13s2p 7Ah)
battery-size.jpg
battery-size.jpg (100.05 KiB) Viewed 1013 times
~01~

User avatar
eCue   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 631
Joined: Nov 03 2017 5:14pm
Location: Vancouver Island , Canada

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by eCue » Feb 01 2018 11:09pm

Very small footprint , high capacity cells are the way to go. Im just using 2200 mah batteries so they take up a fair amount of space. 20 cells @ 36v is 4.4AH using 2200mah cells vs 7AH for 3500mah batteries
Solar charge station on wheels join the Revolution

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 01 2018 11:48pm

Yeah, 18650s have come a long way. This is 26 cells (but I know what you mean). I'm using LG MJ1's in my pack. I had shopped around and I found that getting them from Vruzend was the best bet for me. They are in Florida (so just 1 state over from me) so the shipping is much better, and they sell them in 2-packs for $9.99 (~$4.99 per cell) which when I factored in the shipping was the best deal in town for me.

Specs:
  • Nominal capacity: 3500 mAh
  • Nominal voltage: 3.635 V
  • Standard charge: 1.7 A
  • Maximum discharge current: 10 A
  • Cycles until 80% life remaining: 400 cycles
edit: All of the cells arrived between 3.634 and 3.637 volts
~01~

User avatar
wturber   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1335
Joined: Aug 23 2017 8:52pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by wturber » Feb 02 2018 6:11pm

zro-1 wrote:
Feb 01 2018 10:37pm
Yeah, this pack fits great in both the bladder pocket of my camelback day pack (vertically) as well as in the bottom of my timbuk2 laptop backpack (horizontally). It's a bit heavy with both my laptop and battery in the big bag, but the weight is nicely distributed, so it's not a huge deal. It feels like carrying around a 2nd gen iPad in terms of weight. I don't have a scale to weigh it with though.
It should be right around 2.5 lbs.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

User avatar
wturber   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1335
Joined: Aug 23 2017 8:52pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by wturber » Feb 02 2018 6:18pm

eCue wrote:
Feb 01 2018 11:09pm
Very small footprint , high capacity cells are the way to go. Im just using 2200 mah batteries so they take up a fair amount of space. 20 cells @ 36v is 4.4AH using 2200mah cells vs 7AH for 3500mah batteries
Sure, but you probably paid $1.50 per cell. Factor in the capacity deficit, and you paid about half per amp hour.

The higher capacity cells are certainly the way to go for an ultralight/stealth (true meaning of the term) build though. Projects like this have me seriously thinking about electrifying my old Trek 1400.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

Post Reply