Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Show off your E-bike creation here.
User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 17 2018 8:36pm

wturber wrote:
Feb 02 2018 6:11pm
It should be right around 2.5 lbs.
I finally got around to borrowing a scale to weigh the battery. It came out to 3 lbs, 1.9oz. So the weight is actually closer to a 13" MacBook Pro than it is to an iPad.
~01~

User avatar
Papa   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 392
Joined: May 13 2008 1:06am
Location: NW

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Papa » Feb 17 2018 9:30pm

zro-1 wrote:
Feb 17 2018 5:08pm
... I couldn't get the planet gear carrier screws loose. I don't have an impact driver,...
My error for not sharing an ol' timer trick for overly tight fasteners - Assuming your Philips head...;

Take one of your unused or cheapie Philips screwdrivers and break-off the plastic handle. Now use the bare Philips shank & hammer to gently, but sharply tap on the offending screw's head (just envision the screw as a nail and you're seating it). Go easy 'cause It doesn't take much to free it.
Last edited by Papa on Feb 17 2018 9:39pm, edited 1 time in total.
~ Recycle... Ride your bike again ~

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 17 2018 9:39pm

zro-1 wrote:
Oct 30 2017 6:35pm
This may be useful to the rest of the forum: I was able to decipher the info printed on the motor casing. Here's what the motor reads:

AKM17062901002
AAD3620A
H


AKM = the manufacturer, Akiema (or however that's spelled)
170629 = the date of manufacture (2017-06-29)
01002 = The motor model and version (0100 = Q100, 2 = version 2)

AAD = I haven't been able to figure that out yet, but I believe it is the code for the style of gears/brakes the motor can use (freewheel + disk/rim brake)
36 = 36 volts (yeah, I'll follow that :D :wink: )
20A = 20 amps
H = the H-series of the Q100
For a point of reference, here's the serial numbers from the replacement shell I received, and my new thoughts.

AKM171212200121
BBD3620A
H


Again here's my suspected breakdown:
AKM = the manufacturer, Akiema (or however that's spelled)
171212 = the date of manufacture (2017-12-12)
200121 = I thought this was the motor model and version, but this new series of numbers doesn't match up with that presumption
BBD = Still no idea what this refers to, but I'm curious why it changed from what I first got to this one
36 = 36 volts
20A = 20 amps
H = the H-series of the Q100

Again, like before, this is educated guessing on my part having had previous experience with deciphering serial numbers. I'd love to know what the AAD vs BBD means.
~01~

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 17 2018 9:40pm

Papa wrote:
Feb 17 2018 9:30pm
My error for not sharing an ol' timer trick for overly tight fasteners - Assuming your Philips head...;

Take one of your unused or cheapie Philips screwdrivers and break-off the plactic handle. Now use the bare Philips shank & hammer to gently, but sharply tap on the offending screw's head (just envision the screw as a nail and you're seating it). Go easy 'cause It doesn't take much to free it.
Oh man. I used to know that trick and I'd totally forgotten about it. Thank you for reminding me. Hopefully I won't have this motor apart again for a while, but I'll try to remember that trick this time.
~01~

User avatar
Papa   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 392
Joined: May 13 2008 1:06am
Location: NW

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Papa » Feb 17 2018 10:50pm

I certainly understand your frustration IDing specific differences between various generations of Cute motors. But it's vitally important that we avoid replicating assumptions. Among the many internal images I've seen, I have noted many obvious changes between the 1st gen Q100 and the later Q100H. Some examples include...

1. Laminates - not only thickness, but overall shape.
2. Rotor laminates and rotor assembly process is clearly different.
3. Halls are freestanding on 1st gen, but on my Q100H the halls are mounted on rigid pedestals.
4. Casting & machining differences.

What I DO NOT know... Is if the images i reference display a clone,... potentially manufactured in a completey different facility.

Re: gears

If your planetary tooth count is verified, then about the only way the sun (motor gear) could be a different tooth count than 15t, is to alter the center-to-center axis points between the mating gears - which seems highly unlikely.

Ratio Formula I used... https://woodgears.ca/gear/ratio.html. (scroll down a tad)
~ Recycle... Ride your bike again ~

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 18 2018 1:22am

Papa wrote:
Feb 17 2018 10:50pm
I certainly understand your frustration IDing specific differences between various generations of Cute motors. But it's vitally important that we avoid replicating assumptions. Among the many internal images I've seen, I have noted many obvious changes between the 1st gen Q100 and the later Q100H. [edited for brevity]

Ratio Formula I used... https://woodgears.ca/gear/ratio.html. (scroll down a tad)
Yeah, trying to confirm the specs of a motor that's evolved over the past 5 years is hard. I absolutely agree that we shouldn't perpetuate previous assumptions or measurements that are years old and non-applicable any longer. I really wish they gave these motors version numbers so that it would be easier to track changes.

I like that gear ratio calculator! I've added it to my bookmarks, thanks for sharing that. If I use that formula I get the following:
(15t x 23t) : (36t x 78t) = 345 : 2808 = 8.14 : 1
which really isn't very far off from my calculated ratio of 8.125 : 1. In both cases they'd round down to 8.1:1 or 8:1 if you were using it to try to figure out the effective pole pairs for the Phaserunner Suite.

My bigger concern is why BMSBattery says that this is a 12:1 ratio motor when in fact by both of our measurements, its only an 8:1 ratio motor... And why do we have the same gear ratio if we have supposedly different RPM motors? I guess I'd need to fully disassemble my motor to check the windings to know for sure, and I really don't want to do that. If you can explain that to me I'd be hugely appreciative (and I imagine future Q100 builders will be as well).

All of this being said, I've made some adjustments to the Phaserunner settings and the motor is spinning much nicer now. I'll detail that in my next post.
~01~

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 18 2018 1:40am

So I've been messing with the settings in the Phaserunner Suite app and the motor seems to spin very nicely with out any load with these settings. My concern is why the phase amps can't be set lower than 35. I want to test the bike at 17 amps to the motor, then adjust as I get some miles under it. I'm afraid trying to put 35 amps into the motor will fry it.
PR_suite_2.jpg
Cranking up the feedback bandwidth tuning eliminated the knocking I was hearing before.
~01~

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 18 2018 1:58am

On a more constructive or informative note, here's how I ran the battery cable through my daily commute backpack
backpack-2.jpg
Cable run out from inside a side pocket
backpack-2.jpg (84.81 KiB) Viewed 986 times
backpack-1.jpg
This lets me coil-up the cable into the pocket when I'm off the bike
backpack-1.jpg (102.03 KiB) Viewed 986 times
~01~

User avatar
Papa   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 392
Joined: May 13 2008 1:06am
Location: NW

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Papa » Feb 18 2018 2:02am

zro-1 wrote:
Feb 18 2018 1:22am
.My bigger concern is why BMSBattery says that this is a 12:1 ratio motor when in fact by both of our measurements, its only an 8:1 ratio motor.
My biggest concern... Is the results I get when I twist the throttle. Dissecting the motor blesses me with the knowledge of what I can and cannot do,... to improve the end results...
Last edited by Papa on Feb 18 2018 2:08am, edited 1 time in total.
~ Recycle... Ride your bike again ~

User avatar
Papa   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 392
Joined: May 13 2008 1:06am
Location: NW

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Papa » Feb 18 2018 2:07am

I'm also seriously pondering the phaserunner, so will be interested in your numbers. Thank you!
~ Recycle... Ride your bike again ~

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 18 2018 2:09am

I think I may buy a 90º Rosenberger cable and try to strip most of the super thick rubber sheath off of it to make a more flexible cable into my pack. I'm not happy at all with the current cable. I feel like I'm pirating cable while riding my ebike. This cable is as thick and stiff as a cable TV coax.
~01~

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 18 2018 2:30am

Papa wrote:
Feb 18 2018 2:07am
I'm also seriously pondering the phaserunner, so will be interested in your numbers. Thank you!
As a person who writes code (mostly backend stuff with no UI) the interface on both the Mac and PC version of the Phaserunner suite has me very disappointed. On both OSes (with autotune) there were places where I couldn't read what the interpreted settings were because of UI errors. I'd say the PC version was marginally better than the Mac version, but only barely. In the end I don't think the trouble I was having was due to the Mac vs PC versions. I think it was due to needing the right settings for the motor before using autotune, and needing to cancel and re-launch the autotune multiple times to get it to work correctly. That's a big bug right there.

Big note here: I still can't get the darn hall sensors to work with the Phaserunner. I confirmed that the wires aren't crossed anywhere, and I made sure that the splices I had made were properly insulated. I even twisted the hall wires to prevent interference from the phase wires.
twisted_halls.jpg
twisted_halls.jpg (117.21 KiB) Viewed 981 times
So unless I damaged a hall sensor previously, I don't know why the Phaserunner can't read the hall sensors. At this point it seems to be running well sensorless, so I'll keep it at that for now, but I'd really like to know what's going on with that part of things.
~01~

User avatar
eCue   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 631
Joined: Nov 03 2017 5:14pm
Location: Vancouver Island , Canada

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by eCue » Feb 18 2018 10:12am

In case they are misaligned
Make sure the self learn wire (it should be the white wire in the hall sensor connector) are aligned in both connectors

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 18 2018 3:45pm

I saw the 6th white wire coming out of the motor, and assumed it was the speed sensor. The hall connector on the Phaserunner only has 5 pins. There's nowhere to connect the 6th white wire, so I just left it trimmed-back and disconnected since I wasn't worried about knowing how fast I was going. Where would I connect the white wire?

---

I took the bike for a test ride today since the motor and Phaserunner can both operate sensorless. It runs quiet and cool. I went up a pretty steep long hill and the bike kept its speed up very nicely. The motor wasn't much warmer than ambient temperature. Running sensorless, the startup is still smooth, there doesn't seem to be any perceptible stuttering or anything. The throttle mapping is weird though, so I need to adjust that. Right now it sort of gets to like 40% throttle then stays there for a quarter turn, then it jumps up to 100%. It's not terrible since this isn't a very powerful motor, but I want to smooth that out by playing with the throttle ramp in the software. Maybe that's also related to running sensorless, I'm not sure.
~01~

User avatar
rojitor   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 955
Joined: Mar 23 2011 6:39pm
Location: vigo spain

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by rojitor » Feb 18 2018 4:40pm

Nice job mate 8)

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 18 2018 6:35pm

I figured out what was weird about the throttle feel. It was the sensorless starting delay. When you twist the throttle, there is a delay before the motor starts. I was misinterpreting it as an odd throttle ramp, but it was just the delay in when the power was engaged. Luckily that should go away as soon as I get these hall sensors figured out.
~01~

User avatar
Papa   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 392
Joined: May 13 2008 1:06am
Location: NW

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Papa » Feb 18 2018 10:02pm

zro-1 wrote:
Feb 18 2018 3:45pm
I took the bike for a test ride today since the motor and Phaserunner can both operate sensorless. It runs quiet and cool. I went up a pretty steep long hill and the bike kept its speed up very nicely. The motor wasn't much warmer than ambient temperature.
That doesn't seem typical of a 26"-700c/328. Any chance you monitored speed numbers? Top speed maybe on the level?
~ Recycle... Ride your bike again ~

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 19 2018 5:15pm

I don't have any sort of a speedo or dash on the bike but I'd guess it was 10-14 MPH. I also contributed significantly with pedaling (almost at max without standing on the pedals). If I had to guess at how long I was climbing I'd say it was a total of about 20 seconds? I also started the climb with some built-up speed because the climb is right after a good decent. Its basically down into a gulch and back up out of it.

EDIT: I just looked up the hill on Google Maps, and I guess it's not as big of a deal as I imagined in my head. It's a rise of 46 feet over a distance of 520 feet, which I believe is 8.7% grade.

EDIT 2: I remembered that I recorded the ride as a workout, and it reports my average speed for the entire ride was 16mph (I don't pause the workout timer at stops for intersections). I can't tell what my speed was for the segment going up the hill.
Last edited by zro-1 on Feb 19 2018 6:05pm, edited 1 time in total.
~01~

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 19 2018 5:45pm

Papa: you mentioned that you were interested in seeing my Phaserunner settings for the Q100H. This is what I've settled at for now. I might tweak things once I can get my hall sensors figured out.
PR-ScreenShot.jpg
PR-ScreenShot.jpg (134.74 KiB) Viewed 896 times
~01~

User avatar
Papa   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 392
Joined: May 13 2008 1:06am
Location: NW

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Papa » Feb 19 2018 11:39pm

Much appreciated.
~ Recycle... Ride your bike again ~

Buk___   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 750
Joined: Jul 28 2017 5:59pm

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by Buk___ » Feb 20 2018 12:53am

zro-1 wrote:
Feb 19 2018 5:45pm
Papa: you mentioned that you were interested in seeing my Phaserunner settings for the Q100H. This is what I've settled at for now. I might tweak things once I can get my hall sensors figured out.
PR-ScreenShot.jpg
Why do you have regen configured for a clutched geared motor?

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 20 2018 12:55am

I entered regen values for my own piece of mind, but I know they'll never apply in my case.

EDIT: the Phaserunner will set regen values regardless of if your motor can do regen or not, so I just entered the values for my battery even though I knew they wouldn't apply.
~01~

User avatar
eCue   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 631
Joined: Nov 03 2017 5:14pm
Location: Vancouver Island , Canada

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by eCue » Feb 20 2018 10:23am

my last controller had a white self learn I read it was a common scheme with controllers although my 2nd controller does not and it has the ability to correct the hall wires (apparently)

For regen I think I would set it to off if not its lowest setting with a gear motor. Likely it will not make a difference either way :D
Solar charge station on wheels join the Revolution

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 25129
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by amberwolf » Feb 20 2018 1:44pm

eCue, perhaps you didn't read the other info posted above, but this is a geared motor with a clutch.


With a gear motor that has an internal clutch (almost all of them) it can't make any difference at all.

The clutch prevents the motor from spinning the wheel in reverse, which means it also prevents the wheel from ever spinning the motor.

That means regen cannot happen.


So it is completely irrelevant what regen is set to.
Last edited by amberwolf on Feb 24 2018 1:25am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Single-speed track stealth ultralight

Post by zro-1 » Feb 23 2018 7:28pm

Yeah, I 100% understand that the regen values in my case don't mean a thing since my motor is incapable of regen. I get it. I just wanted to put real values in there, because it felt right to me. That's all. I know it will have absolutely zero impact on the performance or behavior of the motor and controller.

There is no option to turn regen "off" so I just put in real values, because I didn't want to look at zeros or something in those fields.
~01~

Post Reply