My Sun Trip Bike, Back to Back Tandem Trike with Rowing Generator, Pedals, +Solar

[grindz145]

This trip is so inspiring! What an awesome group! This is the kind of stuff that got me excited about ebikes in the first place and it rejuvenates my love for ebike tech (and life really). Keep rowing!

[wturber]

This trip is so inspiring! What an awesome group! This is the kind of stuff that got me excited about ebikes in the first place and it rejuvenates my love for ebike tech (and life really). Keep rowing!

Yep. Cool stuff and certainly a bit infectious. It has me seriously thinking about putting together a solar trailer and going on some longer rides.

Oh - and it looks like An-So and Justin are have probably just about finished their ferry ride. Hopefully they got their batteries good and charged during the ride.

[justin_le]

UPDATE: So it looks like they camped by the side of the road in a field 4 km (10 minutes) down the road from this spot.

Indeed! In and among a field of sunflowers, which has been the one constant agricultural staples we've seen since Croatia onwards.

RoadsideCampingTurkey.jpg (226.1 KiB) Viewed 997 times

Our hope of making it all the way to Tekridad was thwarted by both a headwind and Turkey having a rollercoaster terrain of short but reasonable steep (6-7%grade) hills, not quite long enough to get appreciable regen on the downhill portion but definitely long enough to make every uphill leg a slow drag, increasing consumption, and reducing the average speed. Apparently there is quite a bit more of this in store for the rest of Turkey too. So as 9pm (suntrip cutoff time) approached we still had ~20km to go and with nothing remotely interesting in site just pulled into the nearest field.

Maybe they set up camp and noticed that the Spot device needed charging and plugged it in and it started broadcasting again?

Nah the Suntrip people set up the spot for a very low rate of data updates so that the loading of the live map wouldn't get bogged down from too many datapoints with all the participants tracks. It's not really useful as a real-time tracker, as we found when we were trying to hook up with the French Viguier brothers in Belgrade. We were zigzagging through the city to their latest location, and then once we got there it was updated to somewhere else. It was only after we gave up trying to meet that our paths crossed by happenstance on the way out of town.

And speaking of crossing paths, that's also what happened more or less in Tekridag yesterday when we met with Waiwon Ching of eZee bike ! He came a totally different route, riding much of Italy and then taking a ferry to Greece. He's also been a bit of a Suntrip rebel; didn't take a GPS tracker and is charging up at hotels so not attempting to follow the official rules at all, but he IS one of the few others on the suntrip trajectory going through Iran ( as well as the team from Morocco ) and so I'm glad we've met up for a bit.

It's possible that we'll reconnect again later but for the next while we're going to try and hit consistent 200km days while he's doing more like 150.

Thanks a lot for the data on your "perfect day". Highly appreciated.
I hope that someday after the trip there will be data available for every day and every vehicle involved. That would be great.

That's what we're hoping to get from all of the databoxes that we built and installed on almost all the vehicles just before departure. I'm not sure if the Suntrip organizers are planning to make that all public or not but I sure hope so since it would be wonderful to have others able to access that as reference info for solar travel.

Can you show data from a day with rainy or overcast weather, too if you find some time to do so?

Exactly. It's the kind of thing I need some time and mental space to plough through which is hard to find while on the trip. But I have all the logged data on hand up to one that I just shared and can provide a dropbox link if you want to have a direct look before I have time to present it here. Each day is about 10MB uncompressed, data logged at 1 second rate.

I wonder about the rather high consumption of around 11.2Wh/km at "only" 30,6km/h average speed in perfectly flat terrain.I expected more efficiency especially on a tandem trike. Maybe it's the very bad rolling resistance of three knobby tires or significant air resistance or did you experience heavy headwinds?

No the winds were ideal and mostly from behind, this was a realllly ideal day. In normal conditions we'd see more like 15 Wh/km, and riding around Vancouver in the testing (more stop and go) we were often 17-18. At first I was also a tad disappointed by the overall wh/km numbers but it's not at all surprising. We probably have at least double the effective air drag of a normal bike, since it's a wide trike, with more or less upgright seats, and the roof support structure has more struts and things attached to it than most of the other vehicles. Plus it weighs a ton, not just the heavy solid steel base frame but also the loads of stuff we're carrying. Here it is laid out on the street yesterday when we stripped it for doing some mechanical work to give you an idea of what's in tow

Effectively this vehicle was built for cruising comfort rather than propulsion efficiency, and then we've got enough motor oomph and solar area to still make it work. We got protection from the sun, protection from the rain, and enough cargo gear to be self reliant at surviving and repairing whatever gets thrown our way. If you look at it per-person, it's still pretty good. 5-6 wh/km apiece on ideal days and 7-8 wh/km each on more typical terrain.

But it's true that other riders on tandems will surely have generally better wh/km stats than us, since they are generally lower profile, with more recumbent seats, and a lower roof height with a lower drag roof support.

Oh - and it looks like An-So and Justin are have probably just about finished their ferry ride. Hopefully they got their batteries good and charged during the ride.

The batteries got all charged up just waiting for the ferry departure! We thought there was one at 11am but it turned out that didn't stop in the right port so we had to wait till 5. But at least the evening ferry ride became the perfect opportunity to do some upgrades and repairs with parts from the care package and tools that I brought along, and the ferry deck was converted to a workshop between the trucks loaded with livestock.

I got a set of metric self drilling taps now and being able to form threaded holes makes me feel like I can really do anything

This is me getting the tilting roof mechanism repaired so that we can again change the roof angle while riding again without having to dismount and use tools.

[wturber]

Don't forget to lube the threads!

I'm curious. How is the back to back scheme working out for conversation and such? The setup is counter-intuitive since we are so used to facing in the direction we are traveling for obvious reasons. But it struck me as one of the really good things about your trike.

[zro-1]

Everything about this thread has been so amazing and engaging—not just Justin's posts (which are incredible), but also the maps and data others are providing as well.

Justin: I really love the fact that you share your encounters with people/places on your trip. The ride experience you've shared has been great, but the points where you mention meeting people along the way or people that helped you on your journey give me hope for the human race. In this environment of constantly negative news, reading about your interpersonal experiences has been a really hope-inspiring story for me. I hope that karma is good to you on the rest of your journey and you continue to have these good experiences. Thank you for doing this and sharing it with the rest of us.

[Limezy]

Yep. Cool stuff and certainly a bit infectious.

This is so true ! I had never considered adding solar panels to my ebike but now it looks more and more obvious !

[usertogo]

Yep. Cool stuff and certainly a bit infectious.

This is so true ! I had never considered adding solar panels to my ebike but now it looks more and more obvious !

Yes I was inspired by the 2013 Sun trip to get my first trike in 2014, and from there developed several designs, of which one is already solarized. Now I am also in the process of initiating solar autonomous vehicles and agricultural 'tractor/utility vehicles', and I will look for collaborators (open source) in this forum too!
Sono Motors Sion release last year, as well as 4 models announced by Hannergy in China, as well as participants of the Australian solar race preparing to develop commercial version shows that the obviousness is becoming plainly visible! Hopefully I can also participate in some future Sun Trip edition...

[justin_le]

Justin: I really love the fact that you share your encounters with people/places on your trip. The ride experience you've shared has been great, but the points where you mention meeting people along the way or people that helped you on your journey give me hope for the human race.

Hey thanks zro, the next 3 posts after this one I will dedicate to exactly that, since I've only touched on a fraction of the awesome encounters so far and that's my favorite aspect of this kind of trip too.

In the meantime, me and Anso have now really found the suntrip groove here in Turkey. Yesterday we did 243 km (shooting for 250 but got a flat tire just as we were closing in)

https://www.komoot.com/tour/t37718067?ref=atd

And right now, 7am sun is putting 283 watts into the batteries and if we don't leave soon they'll be fully charged! which (as I'll be explaining later) is no good

[fechter]

Flat tires seem to be one of the biggest issues. Someplace we need a technology improvement.

[wturber]

I understand that the stopping points on the map aren't accurate ... but I do find it a little amusing that the stopping point for this evening appears to be a gas station.

http://tepebasi-eskisehir.turkishbusine ... -tepebasi/

[John in CR]

Hi Justin, Awesome adventure! I figure you've got enough seat time to answer a question I've had about solar panels on a bike. Do you get much heat radiating down from the backside of the panels, or does the air flow keep them cool enough that it's no really noticeable. Down here in the tropics I still bake sometimes in the shade, not because of ambient temps which aren't that hot, but from some things giving shade absorbing so much sun that the bottom side radiates a lot of heat.

[e-beach]

Flat tires seem to be one of the biggest issues. Someplace we need a technology improvement.

Yea, like real flat proof tires. Not like the ones around now, something with real puncture proof material in the tire itself so we don't need to add anything between the tire and the tube. We are running motors after all, we can make up for the weight increase of the tire.

[wturber]

Down here in the tropics I still bake sometimes in the shade, not because of ambient temps which aren't that hot, but from some things giving shade absorbing so much sun that the bottom side radiates a lot of heat.

Yeah. I notice that in the the Phoenix area when I ride or drive (convertible) under a freeway overpass at night. You can feel the heat radiating from the concrete that is hotter than the ambient temperature.

Justin and An-So built their panels out of fiberglass reinforced foam. The reduced mass probably reduces the amount of heat they can hold and the foam is probably a good barrier to heat being radiated from the solar cells. I wonder if it makes the cells themselves more prone to overheating though?

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=93482&start=75#p1385489

[amberwolf]

Yea, like real flat proof tires. Not like the ones around now, something with real puncture proof material in the tire itself so we don't need to add anything between the tire and the tube. We are running motors after all, we can make up for the weight increase of the tire.

A technology change would be nice...but there are some things to mitigate the problem now, depednign on your rim size and tire availability for it.

My way was to go with simple thicker rubber tread, and it makes a significant difference (but is heavier). (I also went with fatter tires to get more "suspension" from them).

Using the Shinko SR-741 EDIT: SR-714 instead of assorted bicycle tires (even doubled up, one inside the other), I went from *at least* a flat every month on average (some of the more dramatic of which I posted about in my SBC thread), sometimes from wearing out the center tread, but mostly from road debris, to no puncture flats at all. (I have had a defective tube, and two issues with rim tape failing/moving and letting the edge of nipple holes pinch/cut the tube) Lasted almost 2.5 years so far; probably will last at least another few months to a year before center tread wears out too far. They don't cost any more than a good bike tire, but htey do weigh a few times what a bike tire does.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67833&p=1154498&hil ... r#p1154498

[usertogo]

My way was to go with simple thicker rubber tread, and it makes a significant difference (but is heavier). (I also went with fatter tires to get more "suspension" from them).
Using the Shinko SR-741 instead of assorted bicycle tires ...

I also decided to not work with bicycle tires and rims anymore for my own 'long distance solar muscle electric prototypes'. I started buying rims, brake disks and tires separately, but recently I realized you can get complete scooter wheels very inexpensively. Or one of my favorite motors is a 12" integrated rim hub motor I got from china. The smaller diameter gives better torque and the rim being directly connected to the hubmotor is like an integrated heatsink. Single shaft versions are available but more expensive. Bummer you won't get to China with the race, Grin could get a technology infusions from the world leaders of Electromobility?

[e-beach]

......
A technology change would be nice...but there are some things to mitigate the problem now, depednign on your rim size and tire availability for it.......

Yea, but the Shinko SR-741 tires start at 70mm wide. That is too wide for me and a lot of guys on mountain bikes.

I am thinking it is time for real steel belted radial mountain bike tires with heavy tread that will work as well as your Shinko tires. I think that it is weird that they are not made already. Or if not steel belted, how about double Kevlar belts or something that is also nearly puncture proof.

[e-beach]

double post?

[billvon]

I wonder if it makes the cells themselves more prone to overheating though?

Perhaps. In commercial/residential solar installations, leaving an air gap behind the panels is critical. Several installations have had problems because the panels were directly on top of a roof or other structure, which allowed the panels to get much hotter than they otherwise would have.

However, in the case of the bike, there's usually decent airflow over the cells themselves which will help a lot. In the olden timey days too-hot panels meant moisture ingress and EVA yellowing, but nowadays it usually manifests itself as reduced output rather than damage.

[amberwolf]

Yea, but the Shinko SR-741 tires start at 70mm wide. That is too wide for me and a lot of guys on mountain bikes.

I meant SR-714. It might still be too wide, but I think there's a 2" version (I'm using the 2.5" on a 45 or 50mm rim; can't remember that width).

But basically any good moped/mc tire will work. If you're using wide 20" bike rims, you can use 16" moped/mc tires, if you don't mind the weight penalty (and possibly the difficulty getting them on/off the rims, though mine are easy enough).

Using moped/mc tubes helps, too, at least with the valve stem problems common to bicycle tubes, if you use the ones that have metal stems with the nuts on the base (kinda like presta, but schrader).

I am thinking it is time for real steel belted radial mountain bike tires with heavy tread that will work as well as your Shinko tires. I think that it is weird that they are not made already. Or if not steel belted, how about double Kevlar belts or something that is also nearly puncture proof.

There are some kevlar-belted bicycle tires; I don't remember the names, though a poke around good bike tire sites will probably find them. They've also been discussed on ES before, IIRC. Never tried them though.

Steel-belted...will require a lot thicker tread to contain the belts to leave enough tire thickness so they don't disintegrate soon from tire wear into the belts, especially with softer grippier compounds.

[wturber]

This just popped up on one of my notifications:

[Cephalotus]

Yea, like real flat proof tires. Not like the ones around now, something with real puncture proof material in the tire itself so we don't need to add anything between the tire and the tube. We are running motors after all, we can make up for the weight increase of the tire.

This is a new airless system from Schwalbe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1oPMxmIU3I (in German)

Weights 1,4kg and is said to be comparable to a 3,5 bar air pressure.

Imho for 99,99% of all road conditions good tires with air a good enough

[cycle9]

Justin - this is so awesome! Thanks for providing a continual source of inspiration

Like you I was skeptical on solar panels with ebikes. However, as you're proving, the efficiency now seems high enough that ebike + solar is a viable possibility.

Also, kudos for the human aspect to this: showing what is possible and making connections with people all over the world.

I look forward to seeing some new solar-powered trailers/bikes/etc from you guys in the future!

Enjoy the rest of your trip!!!


PS - have you tried putting tubeless sealant into your tubes to reduce flats? I do that with my Big Dummy ebike - I hate changing flats on that thing, so I was willing to sacrifice by adding 1oz in each wheel of rolling weight. I don't think I've had a single flat since I did that.

[Ishikawa]

There are some kevlar-belted bicycle tires; I don't remember the names, though a poke around good bike tire sites will probably find them. They've also been discussed on ES before, IIRC. Never tried them though.

I have been using Specialized (brand name) Assfault high pressure tires (20"x2.0) for many years without any flat. This is Kevlar belted.
Most quiet tire at high speed. Highly recommended.

[justin_le]

Well hopefully this is the last post I make about flat tires. But we did get another yesterday, this one on the rear wheel with the decent shape Schwalbe Marathon Plus tire and a super thick inner tube. The cause? A small piece of steel wire that looks just like the kind used to reinforce truck tires. This is the type of culprit that I thought the anti-puncture liner in the Marathon Plus tires would normally block. It was just barely barely poking through the inside of the tire itself, and seemed to have been gnawing away at a section of inner tube for some time before finally making it leak.

There seems to be a lot of luck involved with getting flats. I did the entire cross canada with just a single flat. So far on this covering less than half that distance we've had 6, but they're all explainable (3 from cracked tire sidewall, 3 from sharp road objects). A tire liner would have helped on those latter 3 as the cutting object didn't go in very deep. We've got our 'fix a flat' routine down pretty tight now and just today switched all the wheels to the 2.1" crazy bobs from the care package. The treads on the large fat tires were wearing fast and we wanted to save them in case they become really needed again later for rough roads. The roads in turkey right now are mostly fantastic and this should help reduce our rolling drag a little.

In any case,flats.., just an occasional fact of life when doing long distances by bicycle.
.

[www.recumbents.com]

What a fantastic adventure!

I think the slime tubes would have prevented most of the flats.

-Warren