Project Dirt Cyclone / DH frame / 52V Li-ion

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kachou   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: May 11 2016 10:02am

Project Dirt Cyclone / DH frame / 52V Li-ion

Post by kachou » Apr 03 2018 10:46am

*MY QUESTIONS FOR YOU ARE AT THE END OF THE POST*

Dear ebike friends,

After reading a lot on this forum, and asking a question there and there, I am very happy to start my first real project thread!

My objective
My dream is to build the equivalent of a dirt bike, to enjoy some exciting rides in the mountains (Pyrénées), trails and forests. I am not looking for top speed, but a huge amount of torque and acceleration.

Living in Paris, I also know that I won’t be able to use this bike much, but 90% of the fun lies in the design and build process! (don’t worry about the destination, it’s all about the journey).

I want the bike to be safe (hence a strong DH frame and brakes) and I want it to look kind of like a bicycle (hence I will not use a EEB/Stealth/Vector-like frame).


My inspiration

Apart from my random readings on the forum, two people really helped my reflection so far.

soaresdacosta / Luís
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=38754
Soares is an artist, taking the time to build something perfect and beautiful. Besides his skills, he also brought to my attention the one of the very few DH bike with (some) room in the frame to install a battery : the Berg Viper - only sold and produced in Portugal.

pchen92 / Paul
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=71820
Paul is very knowledgeable about the electric part of the bikes. He built two very powerful dual suspension ebikes. I contacted him and he generously invited me to his home in Paris to share his work and answer my questions. Besides seeing his work, I learnt with him that:
  • Hub motors will fry at low speed in the mountains > I better use a mid drive.
  • High voltage is not necessary (rather the contrary for my objectives) > I should go for 48V/52V.
  • Every motor more powerful than BBSHD begins to be a PITA to install, very tricky, needs customization
  • One of the trickiest parts of the cyclone is getting it to be just the right width for your bottom bracket (BB)
  • Magura electric throttle are far more refined than Chinese stock throttles

My e-bike track record
While having a long experience in traditional bikes, I am an advanced beginner in e-bikes.

I have built two bikes with Q100 CST rear hub motors for friends (commuting & for an ageing cyclist who needed to cope with hills).

I have also built a BBSHD hardtail with a shark pack - that was fun.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=80352
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=84418
BBSHD resized.jpg
All along the 3 builds, I kept having issues that needed custom alterations, tools etc. So I can’t imagine yet what it’s like to set up a Cyclone!


My frame
I have been looking for a DH frame (for safety and shock absorbers) with some space in the frame triangle.
After some research, I narrowed down my choice to:
  • 2002-2004 Giant DH Team/DH Comp
  • mid 2000s Kona Stinky (pchen92 owns both Giant DH and Kona Stinky!)
  • 2008-2010 Norco Aline
I kept looking at classifieds in France for months but then I saw the build of suaresdacosta and its Berg Viper. This bike is not only beautiful and it comes stock with high-end and reliable parts (brakes, Boxxer front shock, etc.).

Living in Paris, it was kind of a challenge to get a hand on this bike, only produced in Portugal (Europe is not so small, yes I am talking to you my American friend). But still, I went through the Portuguese classfieds, found a good deal, dealt with the seller through Google Translation and I had some friends who went there for Christmas and brought me back the bike in their car! They think I am crazy for importing a bicycle from Portugal (but I hope the DIY builders here will understand my urge :-) ).

So I am now in possession of this beautiful frame to start my project:
Capture écran catalogue Berg jpg.jpg
Capture écran catalogue Berg jpg.jpg (101.91 KiB) Viewed 1338 times

Motor
following pchen92 advices, I will be using a Cyclone 3000W. It should provides more than enough torque, and I understand it can be pushed to 4000W+ in peaks.
I need to find a bulletproof transmission (chain, hub, cassette).


Battery
I have not worked on this topic yet.

My main concern is to use the maximum of space in the frame, with the highest quality cells, and then see how far I can go.

I am targeting 48V/52V.

I have heard about 21700-format cells - mayb they will help me get more Amps in a smaller place? http://ebike-mtb.com/en/e-mtb-battery-revolution/

I do not have neither the skills nor the tools to build my own battery, but I assume I might be forced to go down that road at some point, except if I find a production pack that fits my measurements (highly improbable).


Controller
Luna used to sell a 60A controller that I think would be great.
But I need to figure out first what kind of battery will I use, and how many AMPS this battery will be able to put out (is 60 AMPS continuous realistic?). At 52V, that would be 3120W.


My first questions for you
My big issue right now is to order a cyclone mid-drive kit and set it up.

The bottom bracket of the frame has a strange vertical plate that I have never seen before on non-DH bikes (I suppose it holds the chain container). Here are the pictures:
BB Berg Viper.jpg
BB Berg Viper.jpg (132.34 KiB) Viewed 1331 times
Other pictures available here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/OE9GGR127p4GSpb43

1. Will this plate prevent me to install the Cyclone? Or can I install it nevertheless?

2. The bottom bracket shell is 83mm. Shall I order a 68mm-83mm bottom bracket with an adapter, or a 83mm-110mm BB?

3. Also, before I install the Cyclone of the DH frame, I want to install it on a Surly Ogre frame for my wedding procession. The BB shell is 73mm. Can I use a stock bottom bracket (I have plenty) or are their specifically designed for Cyclone? Also, what are my chances of installing it successfully on one bike and then another?

4. What would be the best e-shop to order a Cyclone in Europe (in terms of choice, quality, price)?


Many thanks for your help!

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soaresdacosta   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 460
Joined: Jan 26 2011 12:08pm
Location: Portugal / Europe

Re: Project Dirt Cyclone / DH frame / 52V Li-ion

Post by soaresdacosta » Apr 03 2018 5:10pm

Hello Kachou,

Really happy for you. Glad to help.
Do you bought a complete bike or a frame ?
A mid drive, is not my thing... :x Brackets and chains and custom fabrication... Maybe, if I have a shop or, access to one, then maybe I give it a try. Im building my bike, in my living room...so, no mess.
But, I can not wait, to see a different idea in the same frame.
Do not forget to take some pictures...I mean a lot of pictures... :lol:

Luís.

kachou   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: May 11 2016 10:02am

Re: Project Dirt Cyclone / DH frame / 52V Li-ion

Post by kachou » Apr 07 2018 3:05am

soaresdacosta wrote:
Apr 03 2018 5:10pm
Hello Kachou,

Really happy for you. Glad to help.
Do you bought a complete bike or a frame ?
A mid drive, is not my thing... :x Brackets and chains and custom fabrication... Maybe, if I have a shop or, access to one, then maybe I give it a try. Im building my bike, in my living room...so, no mess.
But, I can not wait, to see a different idea in the same frame.
Do not forget to take some pictures...I mean a lot of pictures... :lol:

Luís.
Hello Luís

Thanks for your message!

I did buy a complete bike. Here is a picture I took when it arrived in Paris:
Photo Berg Viper redimensionnée.jpg
I will take much more :wink:

I am still thinking about mid-drive, waiting on the answers to my questions on the bottom bracket before moving forward (in the first post). I am also afraid about custom fabrication... for the dropouts!

Cheers,
kachou

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soaresdacosta   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 460
Joined: Jan 26 2011 12:08pm
Location: Portugal / Europe

Re: Project Dirt Cyclone / DH frame / 52V Li-ion

Post by soaresdacosta » Apr 25 2018 8:34am

Hi there,

Progress ?
I never build in metal. I just take the measurements, send to a metal shop (in my case was a forum friend) and after that I still have to made some cuts ( not perfect in take measurements ) and then install... But I was afraid to Fu..k up... :roll: In the end, I can say it was an easy job. A 6 in 0 to 10 scale.
A big ass hub motor can handle a lot off power...in silence...you just need to try one.

Luís.
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oldskoolhead   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 43
Joined: Nov 07 2012 10:52pm
Location: uk

Re: Project Dirt Cyclone / DH frame / 52V Li-ion

Post by oldskoolhead » Aug 23 2018 8:38pm

1. Will this plate prevent me to install the Cyclone? Or can I install it nevertheless?

no you can take it off when you remove your crank to put the cyclone one in.

Also, before I install the Cyclone of the DH frame, I want to install it on a Surly Ogre frame for my wedding procession. The BB shell is 73mm. Can I use a stock bottom bracket (I have plenty) or are their specifically designed for Cyclone? Also, what are my chances of installing it successfully on one bike and then another?

the spindle sticks out more on the pedal side to clear the back of the motor (assuming by bottom bracket you are refering to the spindle and bearing) then you need to use the cyclone one else your pedal arm may hit the back of the motor

What would be the best e-shop to order a Cyclone in Europe (in terms of choice, quality, price)?

only one i know of and have used is eclipse bikes

kachou   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: May 11 2016 10:02am

Re: Project Dirt Cyclone / DH frame / 52V Li-ion

Post by kachou » Sep 29 2018 4:33am

@oldskoolhead :

Thanks a lot for your help. I am back on this project!


@Luis / Soares :

Your build is still a bright example for me.
I just got married 3 weekes ago and ended up building a simple BBS02 wedding bike. I should make a topic on this, but here is a picture.

Image

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