Appel Electric Cruiser

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by izeman » Nov 05 2018 3:14am

The layout as shown would work, but only without spacers. I learned that it's recommended to have at least tristar shaped spacers between all cells, to avoid any possible shorts that may happen if the battery flexes and the regular heatshrink may fail.
The cells can be glued together and will be held together be the nickel as well. Still they need support as there should be no stress on the welding points.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Nov 06 2018 2:10pm

Thanks for the info. izeman, I re-read your Kona build, awesome bike! :thumb: Lots of great information there, and a
surprisingly similar battery pack to this one. I defiantly need some kind of spacers.

Well, as usual, I've got a lot of research to do on this idea. The power density, and price is way better than the
drill packs. But the pain in the ass factor is way up. The battery cell arrangement is easy enough, but wiring
up a bunch of BMS's and welding the cells ..isn't.

Well, this build is still a little in the mist yet, and I have to figure out the finances, and 'build timing' yet,.. where
I'm going to fit it in. When I do, (hopefully soon) I'll open a new thread in this category.
Have to say though, I'm liking this bike more and more!

I need to do some tube bending experiments first.

For now, I need to concentrate on this motor build, or it's never going to get done. :)

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Nov 06 2018 2:24pm

Speaking of which,..I got the axle aluminum the other day,.. a solid chunk of 6061 3" wide and 6" long.

Not the 7000 series we talked about, but strong enough for a prototype.

3%22 X 6%22  round stock.jpg
3%22 X 6%22 round stock.jpg (35.81 KiB) Viewed 571 times

Somewhere in there is an axle,.. screaming to get out! :)

Unfortunately, my little crap lathe isn't up to snuff these days, and I'm trying to locate a better one.
Trying to find a lathe on Craigslist is like pulling teeth! The right price, the right place, and finding an
actual functioning human being to buy it from, is near impossible! :roll:

But I will prevail!

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Nov 06 2018 10:25pm

Being unable to get the poster of an item to either respond in a useful way, or sell something to you is really frustrating. I've been around and around that with old mopeds and motorcycles, trying to source parts for my more extreme-load cargo stuff. :/

Keep an eye on your local Freecycle / ReUseIt lists, too.

I got an ancient 1930's? 40s? South Bend lathe several years back that way. Required some cleanup, but was usable as-is (though I barely know how to use it). Have done some small work with it now and then, but only with crappy HarborFright cutting tools (weren't any with it). Used it as a sideways drillpress a few times, too. Someday I'd like to get better cutting tools for it, and learn how to really use it, especially since it's possible to cut gears and threaded items with it too. (I think I have some of the gears to do certain threads, but I've yet to learn how to set it up for that). I could make my own axles if I ever got that far.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Nov 08 2018 2:37pm

Yea, the Craigslist experience is an acquired skill. I discovered the 'all' search mode at the top of the category selection
box, that searches all the category's at once. Theres a lot of people that don't put things in the right place, or even
call them the right thing. I have to get creative in how to ask for something.

But, it payed off finally! I just picked up an older South Bend, like yours, yesterday for only $400. :!: About a third of
what they usually go for around here. It was in the 'general' category, instead of 'tools'. I had to drive a hundred miles,
and call the guy every hour, to keep him honest, and make sure he didn't sell to someone else for a higher price,..
which has happened to me twice now.

It's a bit crusty, but South Bend's are all excellent lathes, and made to run forever. Built back when people cared about
quality. Eventually I'll get it all cleaned up and looking sweet.
This one is a South Bend 9" 'Junior' model. Late 20's early 30's. 3 foot bed.

This is how I found it.
My totaly awesome South bend lathe.jpg

I don't know how to run a lathe either,.. so it will be a learning experience for us both. I used to share a shop with a
machinist so I have a little residual knowledge about them from that, but that's about it. It's a machine I've needed for the
last 30 years and I'm excited to finally have one. Between the mill and the lathe, there isn't to much you can't do.

Luckily, this axle is aluminum, so it shouldn't be to hard to do,.. just an awful lot of turning to pull a skinny little axle out
of a three inch bar! That will give me some practice. The bearing surfaces are going to be touchy though. :?

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by spinningmagnets » Nov 08 2018 3:07pm

Start watching youtubes from "this old Tony", and the right column thumbnails will have other suggestions.

https://www.youtube.com/user/featony/videos

You are halfway to being ready for the zombie-pocalypse...

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Nov 08 2018 4:49pm

The South Bend Lathe website (or it's wayback machine version) has all their old instructional films up as video files, and they have the manuals for them, too.

EDIT: apparently they don't anymore (not that I can find) but there's a bunch on YT, including "how to run a lathe":
https://www.google.com/search?q=South+B ... CuEQ_AUIBg

There is also a forum Practical Machinist that has a lot of good info on these lathes, including restoration help.
https://www.google.com/search?q=forum+P ... 0QrQIIHDAA

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Nov 10 2018 2:04pm

Yea, the little 600 sq. ft. shop is getting full these days, I have to walk sideways most of the time. The only tools I'm
missing now are a Tig welder, and a metal band saw.

Thanks for the link's guys, You Tube is such a savior. :!: The most helpful one so far has been the HSS tool bit sharpening
vid. It show's exactly whats going on with the business end, and how it needs to be used. I like the idea of grinding my own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__A2xtLF0AU&t=1539s

Of course they're all helpful, and I'll be watching a lot of them for a while..

Right now I'm trying to get the lathe mounted up on the bench, and running again. After three days of moving a 300 lb+
machine around, plus a 100 lb+ motor assembly, I'm about as sore as I've ever been. :(

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Nov 11 2018 12:06am

Need more people with shops (and that know how to use them, and have time) down here in Phoenix. ;)

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by izeman » Nov 12 2018 2:18pm

spinningmagnets wrote:
Nov 08 2018 3:07pm
Start watching youtubes from "this old Tony", and the right column thumbnails will have other suggestions.

https://www.youtube.com/user/featony/videos

You are halfway to being ready for the zombie-pocalypse...
This old Tony is AMAZING. I love his videos. Unfortunately they are not invinite.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Nov 14 2018 8:01pm

I like Tony, .. he's to the point and edits his videos very well. Some of those guys go on, and on...
I'll be checking out a lot more of his stuff,.. as he has plenty, especially the TIG ones.

Well, the lathe project goes on, and on too. I'm going through the belt splice thing right now. This
will be the third splice going into the old leather belt, The previous ones were masters of 'splice',
but mine is not going to be a 'looker'. I should just get a new one, but I'll give this a shot first.

Belt splice.jpg
Belt splice.jpg (97.84 KiB) Viewed 438 times

Plus, some fool put the on/off switch next to the chuck, so I have to risk mangling myself every time. :confused:
Thats got to change. :!:

The chuck is worn out, so that will be the next thing to buy, and the lantern style tool post leaves a bit to be
desired, so a quick change will be in order there too, along with some carbide bits. $$$!!!!
But for now, I think I can squeak by with what I have.

Bench lathe.jpg
Bench lathe.jpg (88.2 KiB) Viewed 438 times

Almost ready to twirl something,.. but now I need to do the holiday thing, and visit the family for a week.
Sometimes life gets in the way,..

Happy turkey days! :)

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Nov 14 2018 10:26pm

Belt splice is easily done with steel wire "staples". I used an old leather pants belt of the right width from a thrift store, with buckle and pointed ends cut off, and was lucky enough that some staples for the purpose came with the lathe. Just had to use a drill to put the holes in the belt first. IIRC I used three staples.

The switch on mine is out front, mounted along the front edge of teh bed to teh left of the chuck.
Image

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Nov 16 2018 1:44pm

Very nice amberwolf, I see you have the 'Workshop' model 'C',.. I would have preferred that one, but it is what
it is. Take good care of it my friend,.. these are nice lathes, and parts are plentiful.

Well, I've made a classic noobe blunder,.. I assumed that 9" swing meant nine inches over the bed,.. all these years. :(
Makes sense to me,..but NOOO... It's the radius!! Frack me running. Why don't they just say 9" diameter?
Geez, by that logic, I can say I've got a 16" swing on my private parts... :D

Live and learn, well, it's not really 9" either, it's actually 9-3/4". :roll: This motor's stator plates are 9-1/2", so I'm just
barely under the wire. Whew!

I don't get this old world some times,.. and would it kill us to switch to metric? It's inevitable,.. so why not just do it? :!:

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by wturber » Nov 16 2018 2:11pm

APL wrote:
Nov 16 2018 1:44pm

I don't get this old world some times,.. and would it kill us to switch to metric? It's inevitable,.. so why not just do it? :!:
I've been told it is inevitable since grade school ... about half a century. ;^)
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by izeman » Nov 16 2018 2:55pm

APL wrote:
Nov 16 2018 1:44pm
I don't get this old world some times,.. and would it kill us to switch to metric? It's inevitable,.. so why not just do it? :!:
Well, you do already. Somehow. Eg. mills? What kind of anachrony is this? Thousands of an inch? So you mix imperial and metric.
Use inches, feet, miles and stuff and half it, half it again, and again and again a again until you have 1/16th of it. Really strange and difficult to multiply or even add and subtract, but maybe easier if you learned it from the very beginning of you life. I personally will never understand.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Nov 16 2018 9:31pm

APL wrote:
Nov 16 2018 1:44pm
Very nice amberwolf, I see you have the 'Workshop' model 'C',.. I would have preferred that one, but it is what
it is. Take good care of it my friend,.. these are nice lathes, and parts are plentiful.
All the parts I've seen that I could use are out of my price range, but it works well enough as-is for the primitive work I've needed it for so far.

I got pretty lucky with finding this one, even with the problems it has. I still need to get some decent cutting tools to use with it; what I have is just harbor fright stuff.

A few times I have had things I wished I could do with it but couldn't because it's chuck is not far enough off the bed. So I have had the idea to come up with plans for raising it off the bed, so larger diameter work pieces can be used in the chuck, as long as I can bolt something to the work piece that wil stil fit in the chuck. ;)

There's probably good reasons not to do that...but since it's something I'm going to need to do at some point, and I can't buy a bigger lathe, I'll be trying it out when that time comes. :)

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Nov 28 2018 8:22pm

Finally done with the holiday travels, and getting back into the saddle. The little APL shop is starting to warm
up again.

I got the lathe spinning today, and took a first pass off the axle,.. looks real nice! The tool post is a total pain,
but it works, and I guess that's all I need. At least I can move forward, and get this thing made at long last.

Next up will be the stator plates, and it should actually start looking like a motor once they get bolted on.

First pass..jpg
First pass..jpg (85.86 KiB) Viewed 225 times

On the new 'Muscle Cruiser' build, I figured out how to get six 9ah drill packs in the same space as four 12ah's. So
thats looking better. It will give me 27ah overall, at 40v, and cheaper $$. The 2S-3P set up will have an awful lot
of low end grunt, and might even break something in back.
Perfect! :)

Since Milwaukee won't give an actual max watt output of the packs, I don't know the specifics yet,.. I'll have to
hook up the CA to find out. But I've ridden a 3P-2S set up, and it's VERY impressive! Definitely scary. :shock:
Can't wait!!!

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Nov 28 2018 9:20pm

APL wrote:
Nov 28 2018 8:22pm
The 2S-3P set up will have an awful lot
of low end grunt, and might even break something in back.
Perfect! :)
I figure if it doesn't break something starting up from a stop at full throttle, it doesn't have enough torque yet. ;)

Since Milwaukee won't give an actual max watt output of the packs, I don't know the specifics yet,..
If they list the max amps out (or max amp draw of a tool that uses them), then you can multiply that by the average voltage of the pack, and get a good guess at wattage.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Nov 29 2018 2:39pm

I've been looking for a while now, and they hide the max watt draw very well. They don't want to get into a
'Watt War' with other makers, by simply stating what people need to know. It's easier to be ubiquitous with ah,
and tool draw. Confusion sells more batteries. This has been going on in the automotive battery market forever.
It's easy to manipulate the different systems for determining AH, and thus, the final ratings.

It would be easy to figure it out with the actual cell outputs, but it's the BMS settings that count. I suppose I
could just buy one and test it,..but you would think that somebody has done this already. Not that I can find.
My gut feeling is that it's around 900w for the 9ah 18650 packs. In a 3P set up that would be 2700w,..which
would throw some fire into the little controller I have. :)

All speculation mind you, but that kind of power into a hub motor mid drive is something to behold.

I did find out that the 12ah packs are using the 2070 or 2170 cells, which have a grater watt output. And have
a conservative 1200w BMS setting,.. hmm.. thats If I can believe anything I read.
But at $200. apiece, their hard to justify. A 9ah is $80.

Just a brief chart I saw;

18650's-- 1500 - 3600ma.
2070's -- 3000 - 4000ma.
2170's -- 4200 - 4800ma.

Like I say,.. single cells are not my specialty, I'm a bit of a noob on that, as well as the rectangular flat packs that
I see beging used. They seem to have a much higher rating, and are a bit more 'stackable'.
Always more to learn...

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Nov 29 2018 8:34pm

Well, the watt rating of the battery isn't really all that important--it's the amps it can support.

As I noted before, you can measure that (with just an ammeter), running a pack with a variable load (like a bike motor at different throttle settings and loads, or a variable speed tool under different loads) until the BMS shuts it down from overcurrent, then assume it's max is a bit less than that. ;)

Or just use the max tool amps a pack is rated to be used with; it might not be on the battery, but makers love to brag about amps on tools. Whether those amps are continuous or peak is another matter; you'd have to test that to be sure.


Then measure the voltage while under that amp load, and multiply the two, and you get watts.

But since controllers are current-limited, then the amps is a more important rating, becuase the packs you use with it have to be able to sustain that current for however long you would run it at max current (usually only a few seconds for most people).

Controller watt ratings don't have much to do with anything other than a number they assign to them...just like with motors.


As for max current capability of an 18650 (or any other cell) it depends on the specific cell, not on it's capacity or other things. Some cells are made for high capacity, but have lower current output capability (c-rate). Some cells are made for high c-rates, but have less capacity. Some are in-between. Without knowing what cell is in a pack, and it's spec sheet ratings, (or having accurate ratings for the pack itself) you can't know what it's actually capable of without testing it under the conditions you need to use it at.
Last edited by amberwolf on Nov 29 2018 8:48pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Nov 29 2018 8:45pm

So, let's do some fake math and say your controller is rated for 20A, and absolute max of 75v due to parts used (but is actually a "52v" controller).

Let's say you use three 18v packs in series, for 54v average (3.6v cells x 5s, 21ish v fully charged), and say those packs are rated for 300w each; that'd be 900w for three in series. Then you wire up three of those strings (9 packs total) in parallel, so you could get 2700w.

Well, 300w / 18v = about 17a. That's already close to the max current a 20A controller would ever draw, so more than two pack strings in parallel is "wasted" current capability--the controller will never draw more than the 20A, even if the batteries can supply it.

If the packs are actually capable of 900w each, then just one pack of however many in series (1p, Xs) would be able to supply more current than the 20A controller will ever ask for.


However...the batteries will sag less in voltage the more of them there are in parallel, so there is still an advantage in doing so, because you get more watts total out (depending on actual voltage sag under load), and less waste heat in the packs. At some point, cost/benefit ratio is skewed and isn't worth doing any more parallel cells, of course.


And if you have a controller that will draw more current than a single pack is capable of, then you need to parallel at least however many it takes to supply that current.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Nov 30 2018 3:05pm

Let's say you use three 18v packs in series, for 54v average (3.6v cells x 5s, 21ish v fully charged), and say those packs are rated for 300w each; that'd be 900w for three in series. Then you wire up three of those strings (9 packs total) in parallel, so you could get 2700w.
Well, I see what your saying,.. although theres a slight flaw in that quote; three 300w packs in series is 300w.
Three 300w packs in parallel is 900w.

However, I see it's going to come down to the controller to get the most out of the packs,.. your right of course.
Which brings me back to knowing what kind of power I actually have to draw from, so can get the right controller.
I suppose I could just overkill it with a monster controller, and be done.

I can't trust their 'tool amp draw' advertising, they can't even get their voltage rating right. (18v is actually 20v) And I don't
really want to take a brand new battery out of the box, and push it to overload.

But, I'm afraid that it's going to have to come down to something like that, in order to get to the truth of the matter.
I have a Cycle Analyst I can hook up, I assume that it's accurate enough, finding the actual method for a good variable load
is the next question.
Maybe I can find a cheap used battery to use for this.

Otherwise, I know that a 2P pack system works well with this 40A controller. (although, the controller may still be limiting.)
So a 3P pack system will probably need a larger controller to take advantage of these batteries.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Nov 30 2018 9:57pm

APL wrote:
Nov 30 2018 3:05pm

Well, I see what your saying,.. although theres a slight flaw in that quote; three 300w packs in series is 300w.
Three 300w packs in parallel is 900w.
No, wattages add either way, becuase they are voltage x amps. Amps (and Ah) only add in parallel, while volts add in series.

If you have a 300w pack that is 18v x 17A, then put it in series with two others, then that's now 54v * 17a, which is now 900w.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Dec 01 2018 1:42pm

Well shut my mouth! First time I've heard of it. How could such a basic bit of info. like that escape me for 50 years?
I've been into electronics since high school, and don't remember ever reading that.

:bolt: "Watt's add both ways, series and parallel." :bolt:

So take the number of batteries times their watt output, and you have the total watts available at any given moment.
(depending on their charge)

In my case,.. 6 X 900w = 5400w. (except the 900w is still questionable)

Riiiiight? :?

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Dec 01 2018 10:36pm

APL wrote:
Dec 01 2018 1:42pm
Well shut my mouth! First time I've heard of it. How could such a basic bit of info. like that escape me for 50 years?
I've been into electronics since high school, and don't remember ever reading that.
It might not have been directly stated anywhere in the books/etc you've had...but it is what happens when you calculate watts from amps and volts. (or either and resistance)

If it helps, here's a page with the math and words I lack:

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbo ... culations/


:bolt: "Watt's add both ways, series and parallel." :bolt:

So take the number of batteries times their watt output, and you have the total watts available at any given moment.
(depending on their charge)

In my case,.. 6 X 900w = 5400w. (except the 900w is still questionable)

Riiiiight? :?

Yes.

Think of it as the amps and volts instead, and it may make more sense.

Let's assume they're 5s packs, and 18v average voltage. If they're 9Ah, then let's conservatively assume a 3C max current rate, which would be 21A per pack. That's 18 * 21 = 378w per pack.

If you put two in series, that is now 36v * 21A, for 756w per series string.

If you put three of those series strings in parallel, that's now 36v * 63A, for 2268w.

That's only a *capability*, since the controller determines what actual current will be pulled from the batteries, and the voltage sag of the batteries at any particular state of charge and current draw will change the wattage available. At full charge, more watts are available (for a number of reasons including total voltage), and near empty less are available.


If the cells' C-rate is higher, or you are willing to push them harder (assuming the BMS does not current limit it, and there's no fuse in the packs), then you could get more out of them if the controller will pull it.






BTW, some thoughts on voltage "ratings" of tool packs:
I can't trust their 'tool amp draw' advertising, they can't even get their voltage rating right. (18v is actually 20v)
If the packs are 5s, then 18v is "correct", because packs are generally rated not for their full voltage, but their average, so 3.6v/cell x 5 is 18v. 3.7v is probably more correct, but that comes out to 18.5v which isn't as easy to remember, and doesn't print as large in the same space for marketing. ;)

20v doesn't fit 5s or 6s, because at 5s it'd be 4v/cell (rather than 4.1-4.2v full), and at 6s it'd be 3.34v (rather than 3.6-3.7v).

More likely they'd call a 5s pack a 21v for it's full voltage, or 18v for it's average, and a 6s pack 25v full, or 22v average.

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