Appel Electric Cruiser

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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 12 2018 2:01pm

This PVA dries up thin, so use several coats if you can. I use an infra-red lamp, or a hot car interior, to speed up drying times.
Nothing more than 120 degrees or so.

After the first pour is dry, clean it with a solvent, or NAPTHA, and re-coat it with more PVA. Maybe use a little oil, or silicone
on top of that as well. Then pour the second half.

Second pour.jpg
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The two halves will stick together around the outside edge, so a bit of splitting is necessary to open it.

Resin molds are very brittle, and tend to crack, and chip, so they are only good for a few quick parts. Try using a few less drops of hardener.
Silicone molds are far superior, and can produce many parts. If the ferrite works out, then I'll use silicone for the other cores.
But first I have some testing to do.

Open Mold.jpg
Open Mold.jpg (69.88 KiB) Viewed 559 times

Now it's time to actually make the ferrite core.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 12 2018 7:05pm

I poured about three ounces of resin in a cup and mixed in as much powdered iron as I could.
Mixed it well, and let it set overnight. Then I scraped off the top, and dug out the most packed iron.

Mix.jpg
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It totally acts like Bondo, in fact thats what it is,..Metal Bondo.
About five drops of hardener, and mixed it up well.

Metal Bondo.jpg
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Packed it in each side and clamped it together. Hope I don't have to do this over again.

Clamped.jpg
Clamped.jpg (84.95 KiB) Viewed 548 times

Finally get to move on to testing.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by wturber » Oct 12 2018 8:38pm

I wonder if you could get a bit higher iron density by putting a bunch of neodymium magnets on the bottom of the cup. That should help out gravity a bit. It might even help you drain off the low iron resin.

Note: That is, underneath the cup, not in the bottom along with the resin.
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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 13 2018 1:28pm

Yup, I thought of that too, good call wturber,.. makes sense,..so I tried it, and was shot down. :( The stuff acts like Ferro-Fluid
and gets stiff because all the particles want to line up along flux lines and connect each other! Crap.
So I thought maybe a less powerful refrigerator magnet? But then, I'm magnetizing, and aligning all of the particles in one
direction as well,..and I didn't think that would be a good idea. Am I wrong? Maybe.

I thought about making a press to squeeze it, or a vacuum bag system?

At any rate, I'm thinking that this is why they use high pressure to make this stuff.

I'm not having any high hopes at the moment. The big question in my mind is "can I get 750 watts out of this beast, by using
crap ferrite?" or any ferrite for that matter. My gut feeling is that I'm going to have to use laminations. :(

At the moment I'm looking for some laminations, to add to the experiment. The weight difference between the three should tell
us something.

I'm also thinking that maybe a bigger ferrite core could compensate?

It's the simple stuff that keeps me awake at night. :shock:

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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 13 2018 2:10pm

Also, some info. on Fe-Lam. comparison.

FEA Ferrite VS Laminations .jpg
FEA Ferrite VS Laminations .jpg (62.7 KiB) Viewed 523 times
Ferrite VS Laminations.png
Ferrite VS Laminations.png (167.62 KiB) Viewed 523 times
Output Ferrite VS Laminations.png
Output Ferrite VS Laminations.png (134.86 KiB) Viewed 523 times

Taken from; https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4460318 More info. better pictures.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by wturber » Oct 13 2018 2:46pm

Centrifuge? Let it sit overnight then spin the crap out of it. :^)

Or maybe work differently and add the resin drop by drop, kneading it like dough?

Also, I wonder what happens if you used the neodymium magnets but inverted the cup and let the resin drain out over some extended period of time - perhaps aided by some slight warming to let the resin flow more easily.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 13 2018 9:34pm

Thats brilliant wtuber! :D

Turn it upside down indeed! I'll try that with the few ounces that are left.

I'd like to make another core thats just a straight sided, rounded bar, to add some mass,.. I'm pretty sure ferrite is much lighter.
I'll use the new resin on that. The 'I' beam shape is to reduce the weight of the steel, and provide a place for the coil ends to stop.
But it's not really needed with the ferrite, and a bar will slide through the coil, so there wouldn't be any unwinding needed.


If the ferrite works out, I've been toying with the idea lately of making the stator side plates out of composite too.
Just a thought at this point.

The idea is that I could pour and bond the ferrite cores right into the side plates,.. if I split the centers of the cores.

The two sides would slide into the 'core-less' coils and connect in the center, where the coil's power is the strongest.

A coil set could be changed in 10 minutes. Hmmm.... :?:

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 14 2018 9:01pm

Finally got some time to take the core out of the mold. Turned out really good. :!:
Ferrite Core.jpg
Ferrite Core.jpg (48.62 KiB) Viewed 497 times
Ferrite is 29 grams, and steel is 63 g, so about half the weight of steel. Defiantly need to add more ferrite to
the core. I still have to weigh some laminations. I'm guessing, flux density and steel content go hand in hand.

Now I can test for magnetic strength, and eddy current ability's. The plan is to run AC current through them to see
how they react to eddy fluctuations, by measuring the heat they make in a specific time.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 16 2018 1:35pm

Turns out that trying to pump current through 10 strands of 4 foot wire is no easy task! Ha! :?
Pretty much a solid copper rod. It's only when these coils are strung in series around the stator,
that they have a higher resistance. So I'll have to go single strand for the magnetic comparison.

The AC test was a bust, but no big loss, since this information is already known, and there's no since proving whats
already been proven anyway. The magnetic comparison is pretty much the same,..half the steel content will result in
half the magnetic ability,.. however , I will do a test to confirm this anyway. Can't assume everything.

It would be more useful to have some factory ferrite to test against the DIY stuff, but I'm having a hard time finding
some, close to the size I need, and since it's ceramic, machining it is very difficult. But I'll keep looking.

If I had a corporate funded lab, I would just have it made,..but this is DIY out in the garage.

After much thought, it's looking like thumbs down on the ferrite prospect.
It's not viewed as a loss, or a failure, on the inventors trail.
The knowledge gained from the search for information, and the experience gained from the experiments are more valuable,
and can be used down the road for other things. Like a needle on a compass, it just points you in the right direction.

I don't think the resin content of the part is the problem. I poured just the iron powder in the mold. and weighed it.
There was only one gram difference between the powder and the part. So it has to be the space between the particles.
Steel is twice as dense.

The good news is that I was able to find a supply of lamination material. Surprisingly hard to do, unless I wasn't looking in
the right places.

At any rate, I think I'm just going to have to 'Man Up' and make the sixteen million lamination parts. The bottom line is
that the outcome is known to work, and the effort won't be a waste. :)

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 16 2018 2:04pm

Back to the original aluminum stator plate idea. But I was thinking of making the rotors out of 1/8" steel, instead of
1/4" aluminum. Steel is three times heavier than aluminum, but also three times stronger.
(strength is defined in different ways)

Half the thickness for steel, is still a little heavier than aluminum, but I wouldn't have to make the back iron rings for
the magnets,..the magnets could be placed right on the rotor, saving the weight of the two rings.
(thats if 1/8" is enough material for them)
Plus, I could drill or machine a lot of holes and relief in the steel to lighten it further.
I could also turn down 3/16" plate steel on a lathe to get more back iron thickness if needed.

I fully expect this motor to be loud and noisy because of low material. One of the grate features of the Crystalyte motor
is their quietness, but that comes with a sixteen pound cost. Noise is something that can be dealt with later.
The primary goal is just to get something to spin!! :)

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 19 2018 8:46pm

The Lamination material didn't have a lot of info. on it. But after reading more on this stuff, it's CRNGO
transformer steel. Thats cold rolled in one direction which makes it up to 30% better transfer in that direction.
And from the looks of it,..it's fairly high test stuff.

Laminations.jpg
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Calipers read .026" on each sheet. But after looking closer, I found that it was actually two pieces stuck together!

That makes each sheet .013", which is really thin. Good for the motor, but bad for me, because I have to cut,
and work with twice as many pieces now. :(
Cut pieces.jpg
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I'd of been happier with .035" on this motor,.. since it's not exactly a high performance motor.

The steel is a little brittle, but can be cut with the snips. Not something I want to do though, with 24 magnets.
So, I tried a hacksaw, and it cut through a stack of them fairly well.

Cutting pile.jpg
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Still a lot of work, so I'm thinking 'band saw' at this point. I have a plasma torch, but I don't want to heat the metal.
Still an option though.

In manufacturing, this stuff is usually laser cut.

The big question I have is, can I machine it?,.. all the thin laminations are going to catch and bend with the cutter.
So that will be the next test. Otherwise I'll have to grind it,...which is not something I want to do. :!:

I'm going to epoxy all the pieces together first, so it will stay together while I try.

Stacked.jpg
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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 19 2018 8:51pm

More information on lamination material, and manufacturing.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_steel

http://www.protolam.com/page7.html

.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Oct 19 2018 9:50pm

If it helps, Big Blue Saw here on ES has a thread in the marketplace for waterjet cutting, and has sales now and then. I'd guess you would probably want a roll of lamination material, isntead of individual pieces, to make the process easier (and cheaper) for the cutter, but you'd have to ask them about that part.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 20 2018 10:19pm

Thanks amberwolf, I'll look into that,..might be the way to go. Would sure make things easy.
I've got to beat it up on my machines for a few days, and see what I can do with it first. If it machines at all,
maybe I can plasma cut it larger, and then machine the heated part away. Maybe.

Having it done is a good option, considering how much time it's going to take to make all these.
Otherwise,.. I know that they punch press this stuff,.Maybe DIY one of those? I'd like to do it here in true DIY fashion,
but sometimes the work involved is just too much for simple tools.

I'll know more in a few..

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 22 2018 12:43pm

Some follow up on the magnetic test results. A comparison between the ferrite, and the solid steel cores.
I downloaded wtubers magnometer/smartphone idea, and devised an analog digital scale version as well.

Magnometer.jpg
Magnometer.jpg (59.66 KiB) Viewed 355 times
Digital Scale test.jpg
Digital Scale test.jpg (101.22 KiB) Viewed 355 times

Using the same single strand wire on both, and the same duration, at the same temperature.

Steel core was 1700 with a drop to 1400 on the magnometer. 350 gram pull with a drop to 320g on the scale.
Ferrite was 680 with a drop to 540, and a 35 gram pull down to 33g. :(
Temperature was 63 degrees, and climbed to 83 degrees. (aprox.)

This is all 'comparative' info., and the numbers don't mean anything by themselves.

It was interesting to see the magnetic field drop, as the wire heated up,.and the resistance in the wire went up.
I wonder if anybody has tried putting 'dry ice' in their motor yet? :idea:

At any rate, it's another 'busted' on the home made ferrite idea.

The smart tool program is very simple to use, and works quite well. It's very sensitive, and even reads the earths
background magnetic field, and orientation.
Took a while to get it set at distance that was 'in scale'. I can see where this will be useful in the future. :)

Heres the app link again;
https://www.vieyrasoftware.net/physics- ... gnetometer

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by wturber » Oct 22 2018 7:29pm

APL wrote:
Oct 22 2018 12:43pm

The smart tool program is very simple to use, and works quite well. It's very sensitive, and even reads the earths
background magnetic field, and orientation.
Took a while to get it set at distance that was 'in scale'. I can see where this will be useful in the future. :)

Heres the app link again;
https://www.vieyrasoftware.net/physics- ... gnetometer
Welcome to the Dark Side. ;^)
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 23 2018 9:06pm

The force is getting stronger...

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 23 2018 9:50pm

The machining went OK, I could tell that the cutter didn't like it, and was probably getting duller by the minute,
but it was doable. If I could cut the piles close to the shape,..and the machining was just a clean up, then it would
be OK.

Machiened .jpg
Machiened .jpg (99.29 KiB) Viewed 326 times

I was surprised to find out that the laminations were all electrically connected. Running an Ohm meter across the
machined surface came out a dead short everywhere. I thought the laminations were supposed to be separated, but evidently
a surface short is normal. I checked two Bionix stators, and they were the same.
I have to assume that overall, the laminations are separated, and a surface connection is a low percentage.

I'm still looking for a better supply of 'silicon steel', but almost all of it is made overseas. I also looked at Big Blue Saw's
site, and didn't see any lamination cutting specifically, but I'll have to E mail them and see what they can do,
maybe they can do the stator plates as well.

I'm starting to think about going straight sided cores, and a few less poles for room, ..and expediency in building.
Once it's working, I can fine tune, or make new plates and add more. Hmmm.. :?:

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Oct 23 2018 10:51pm

APL wrote:
Oct 23 2018 9:50pm
I have to assume that overall, the laminations are separated, and a surface connection is a low percentage.
Commonly, the surfaces are not connected everywhere, but many lamination stacks for various things (motors, transformers, etc) have a weld across the stack somewhere that electrically connects them, or are pinned (or bolted) thru the stack in one or more places, etc.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 25 2018 8:28pm

Thanks amberwolf, I've seen some of the welds, and have wondered about the rivets that hold the stators together.
Apparently, the mill cutter is smearing the edges together. I'll have to try and belt sand, or wire brush the surface,
and see if that helps. More R&D.

I got an E mail back from Big Blue Saw, and they have an extra charge for using my steel, plus the charge for cutting it.
So it looks less attractive at the moment. Cutting all these by hand isn't very attractive either.

I guess its time for the plasma cutter. :) If I keep the stacks short, maybe it will cut clean, and quick. Won't hurt to try

I knew laminations were going to be trouble, but I still have some ideas to try out yet.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Oct 28 2018 7:30pm

Found some time today to try out the plasma cutter. Fall is here in Wisconsin, and I'm busy getting things ready for the
'long cold white' these days.

I was able to cut 3/16" thick stacks easily into strips that can be cut to 35mm length's with the hacksaw. :)
So thats a good thing. Three of these strips are about one cores worth.
The bottom lamination will have to be discarded because of slag, but thats no big deal.

Things should go pretty fast once I get a method perfected.

Plasma cut laminations..jpg
Plasma cut laminations..jpg (103.99 KiB) Viewed 263 times

I'm sure there will be a performance loss from using heat to cut them, but theres also a gain from using .013" laminations.
Either way I'm going to try them out and see what happens.

The industry's usual practice is to anneal the parts at about 1800 degrees, if they have been stressed, but it has to be done
in an inert atmosphere, in a controlled way. A bit beyond my reach at the moment, but perhaps something that I can research
should it be necessary.

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Nov 02 2018 2:44pm

I've been busy cutting stacks of laminations, a very tedious job. Did I say I hate laminations yet? .. I do! :x
But it has to be done,..so be it.

I ordered out the 3" aluminum bar, for the axle, so at least I'll have that to show, while I'm doing the lam's.
Theres going to be a heap of lathe turning and machining on that.

Things are moving along, but it gets slow sometimes.


I also had an idea for the 'V4' bike a while ago,.. a fairly common cruiser design that I wanted to try and modify
for electric conversion. A cascading design, with a balloon bike feel, and a touch of board track racer.

Kind of a 'Muscle Cruiser".

After many try's, I think I've finally got it to work. I don't know if it will make the reality list yet, but it's looking
like a goer at the moment. The huge 12ah batteries are a bit hard to hide, (there will be covers), and wheel sizes
are still up in the air. I'm trying to leave more room for the seat to move back,..for larger folks.

The problem is, I've never built a 'bent tube' bike before. So I'm not sure that I can bend large tube chromoly in
to this shape yet. That stuff is made 'not' to bend! So I'll have to do an experiment.

Otherwise, if it works out, I'll probably start another thread, and show the build, start to finish, so it doesn't
clash with this motor build. I'm a lot better at building bikes than I am at building motors. :)

V4 Concept..jpg
V4 Concept..jpg (118.75 KiB) Viewed 217 times

Let me know what you think of it,.. I'm blinded by designer-hood. :)

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by spinningmagnets » Nov 02 2018 6:43pm

I love it!

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Nov 02 2018 10:01pm

You might look up AussieJester's Custom Cruiser build (trike and bike); he shows how he built each one, in steps; including the bending processes.

FWIW, I'd also go for a springer-style fork, so the front is curved like the rear (since it's really the only straight lines, and sort of looks out of place).

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Nov 04 2018 4:33pm

Thanks Ron, and amberwolf, sometimes I stare at a design so long that I can't see the obvious.

Thanks ambewolf for the Aussiejester link, Ive seen those benders at HF, but always thought they were a bit
wimpy looking,.. good for small stuff. It's amazing that he was able to bend the large tubing.
He has amazing building skills! Beautiful bikes. Gives me hope.

I'm thinking that between one of those benders and a curved wood bending form, I should be able to do it.
The curves are pretty mild. The top and down tubes are the problem tubes, the small tubes are easy to bend.

I designed this battery case for the big Milwaukee 12ah batteries, but got to thinking that maybe I should take another
look at the 18650's option. Probably a lot cheaper than the packs, and possibly more Ah with single cells,..plus,
a lot thinner profile, at only 3" wide. I'll have to give up the one hour charge though.

I don't know a lot about them unfortunately,.. having spent all my time with drill packs, maybe you could suggest a
good choice for a cell,..Panasonic? Samsung? 3000ah,..3400ah? Whats the best value?
Meanwhile, I'll start searching the ES for battery pack builds like this.

Keep in mind, I'm just thinking about this.

I drew up a mock fitting to see about how many cells would fit in this case,.. so that I could keep the option for both,
and came up with about 150 cells. Perhaps I can't pack them that tight? Need room for end caps?

150 - 18650 cells..jpg
150 - 18650 cells..jpg (84.85 KiB) Viewed 145 times

With the 3400ma cells.
At 37-40v, it would be 15 sets of 10 cells, 10S-15P for 51ah. :?: :!:
Or, at 55.5v it would be 10 sets of 15 cells, 15S-10P for 34ah.

Both of those would kick the drill pack's ass,.. any insight to all of this?
I know I have to tackle the BMS's yet. I'm just thinking out loud at the moment,..feel free to shoot it down.

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