Appel Electric Cruiser

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by fechter » Sep 19 2018 12:36pm

APL wrote:
Sep 19 2018 12:05pm

In the meantime.
What do you think of the double bolt idea? Grade 8 bolts would go down into the axel a ways,
for a good anchor, and the torque would work against shear strength, which is extremely high.
9mm or 10mm bolt shafts would fit a dropout.
Perhaps the dual bolts could go through a torque arm strap on the outside face of the dropout?
Hmm..just an idea :)
If you used bolts like that, the plate could just have two holes and not need a slot since the bolts can be removed when you want to get the wheel off. We know roughly what kind of torque is on the axle so it should be easy enough to calculate what bolt size is needed.

If the dropout has a slot like your drawing, the holes could just be above and below the slot so you don't even need a plate.
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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by Chalo » Sep 20 2018 12:01am

APL wrote:
Sep 19 2018 12:05pm
What do you think of the double bolt idea? Grade 8 bolts would go down into the axel a ways,
for a good anchor, and the torque would work against shear strength, which is extremely high.
9mm or 10mm bolt shafts would fit a dropout.
Perhaps the dual bolts could go through a torque arm strap on the outside face of the dropout?
3/8" socket head cap screws have much smaller heads than 10mm, but they can almost always use the same hex key. 5/16" SHCS have smaller heads than 8mm, but use a slightly bigger key, 1/4" versus 6mm. Smaller heads would give you more options for screw diameter and placement without the heads fouling each other.

It would make sense to make a two-hole washer with a raised rib to fit the dropout slot. Easier on both the bolts and the slot.
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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Sep 20 2018 1:00pm

Thanks for your input guys! Your opinions are valued, and well taken. I'm glad to here that you at least think
that the two bolt design has some merit. I wasn't sure.

This is a new version, using fetcher's plate, and Chalo's rib ideas. Plus it occurred to me that perhaps there
might be a shoulder bolt that would fit? The threads could be smaller, and the shoulder is precise, making a
tighter fit, and leaving more aluminum in the axle. I think most of them are tool steel though.

Also I thought, since the motor doesn't have to slide out of the rear of the dropout, it can be closed off, making
for a stronger dropout. I like the fact that the axle face is flat, which allows it to go in and out easier.
(up, and down)

The rib idea can be expanded out both sides as well, if more area is needed, (longer slot), and I thought maybe
even go down into the axle a little bit? :?: Maybe thats overkill...

Left, is a simple bent tab, plate. Right is a a solid rib.
IMG_1327 copy.jpg
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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Sep 20 2018 1:13pm

Also, I may have read fetcher's post wrong. I think he was saying that if the motor is going to be fixed,
in one place, then the dropout only needs two holes in it for the bolts, and no slot, which would be very solid.

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by Chalo » Sep 20 2018 1:41pm

APL wrote:
Sep 20 2018 1:13pm
Also, I may have read fetcher's post wrong. I think he was saying that if the motor is going to be fixed,
in one place, then the dropout only needs two holes in it for the bolts, and no slot, which would be very solid.
For a fixed motor location, that would work very well. If the motor must move for chain adjustment, you need a slot of course.

Amberwolf was mentioning before that the the diameter constraint on a hub motor axle is imposed only by the freewheel and brake rotor that must fit over it. That implies a 19mm right side axle end to fit through a multi-speed freewheel, but up to about 35mm on the left side if I remember correctly. Even at 30mm or so, the left side would be more than adequate for a two-bolt torque retention system such as you have designed. It wouldn't work with vertical dropouts, but all the same, I wish some motor manufacturer would make axles that way.

Putting the raised rib on the axle end instead of the washer would reduce the likelihood of user error in installation. It would also give the axle a definite position in the slot even if the bolts are undersized (e.g. 6mm).
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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Sep 20 2018 10:04pm

Well, the e-bike industry is having to evolve from the perfected road bike history. Having to make motors fit road bike dropouts is the problem. There needs to be a change at some point,.. to their own system. Much of the efforts I see on the ES have been to compensate for that dilemma. Vertical drops are a curse.

Luckily, since this is a 'mid drive specific' motor, we have a clean slate, to do justice. What ever you want.:D

It's unlikely that anyone would use a freewheel on the drive side, unless you turn it into a hub motor, however, if so, the axle can be made in two pieces, drive side being steel. But I was thinking more about single speed freewheels.
They have about 35mm as you have stated. My personal set up has a BB fixed cup on it as well, so I need 28mm for that ID clearance.

Thats why this drawing is using that right drive size, I plan to ride this dang thing! :shock:
But it could go up to 35mm like you said. Plenty solid axle!

Or you could go with dual 40mm ID bearings as well, and use the chainring bolt pattern drive cogs, or machine one, to get 40mm axles.
(back to wiring route)

Question becomes, whats big enough? Any engineers? Gut feeling says 28 - 30mm is going to be fine. :)

Raised rib on the axle would be nice. Much lighter, and easy to make. I guess I have questions about the ability to wollow or crush with the torque? 6061T is robust, and there are harder available. Theres a little over an inch of surface on both sides. I realize that the bolts going through the axle are just as susceptible, to wollow, but they have more contact area?
Hmm..what think?

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by Chalo » Sep 21 2018 12:13am

I'm no fan of vertical dropouts, but they control some variables that make derailleur shifting unpredictable. They have their place for mid drive e-bikes that use derailleurs. My beef lately is with through axle designs that add no advantages over vertical dropouts, but a few extra disadvantages. Those are surely a solution in search of a problem.

I think a 28mm long, 10mm wide, 5mm deep key on the axle end would be more than adequate to secure the axle against motor torque when the bolts are fully tightened. But if you're worried about its integrity, you could always use 7075-T6 aluminum, which is about twice as strong and hard as 6061-T6. It machines very nicely. Stiffness and density are about the same.

I made a torque arm for my girlfriend's e-bike out of 7050 aluminum, which is in between the strengths of the above mentioned alloys, but stronger than mild steel. It was a low powered motor (350W nominal, geared), but on the other hand it was only a 10x12mm threaded axle. I made the arm 9mm thick and very precisely fitted, to compensate for the small radius. It seems to work fine.
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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by spinningmagnets » Dec 22 2018 8:12pm

From the moderator: From this point forward, many of the existing were moved to a new thread where the original poster / OP began posting about developing a DIY motor.


"APL's DIY axial flux motor"
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 30&t=97860

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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Jan 22 2019 2:57pm

Well the 'Muscle Cruiser' build is still on the table, and raring to go, but the Axial Motor build is taking longer than
I thought,..I've never been accused of being in a hurry.. :)
So it's still going to be a while before i get to it.

V4 Concept..jpg
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Even before V4 is in the fixture, I've had an inspiration for V5! (I think it's the multi-vitamin's) Errr..yea, that's it. :oops:

I saw this nifty V-Twin motor on youtube, and it struck me as a great idea to super size it, and build a frame for it!
Make it old school motorcycle like, and hide the batteries in a tank maybe.

Solenoid V-twin.jpg
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The motor would be easy to mess with, as everything is out in the open, and winding the coils is a no brainer. I would
modernize it with hall sensors, and utilize the 'push' part of the coils as well as the 'pull', which would reduce the need for
heavy fly wheels.

Hmm,.. I wonder if this will work...Heres a video of it running-http://www.glue-it.com/wp/gallery/elect ... win-motor/

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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Jan 23 2019 1:58pm

More of this crazy idea,..some fine examples of Electro-V's.

Solnenoid V Twin 1.jpg
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Solenoid V Twin 2.jpg
And videos of above;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k5IqNMppJk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brVjEhmqU1I

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by fechter » Jan 24 2019 9:52am

Some of the very first electric motors were made like this. There would be lots of room for improvement using modern magnets and materials. For sure you could use permanent magnets and reverse the coils for half the stroke to make it double acting. Copy the magnetic design from a modern linear motor and it might be sort of efficient.
Reciprocating electric motor.jpg
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Most of the really efficient linear motors these days use multiple magnets and stator coils. The windings are energized in sequence just like a rotary BLDC motor. More complex drive circuit, but probably worth it.
Linear motor1.jpg
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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by spinningmagnets » Jan 24 2019 12:30pm

Akso research "linear actuator". Think of it as a hydraulic ram, but actuated by electromagnets...much like a linear motor. A solenoid is an electrical "ON / OFF" actuator, but a linear actuator is more like a stepper motor that is stretched out in a straight line. It can be moves in discrete steps in or out...

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Jan 24 2019 1:50pm

FWIW, many "linear actuators" are a normal motor with a gear on the end of it's output shaft, and teeth on a flatted area of the linear shaft doing the actuating.

That's how all the ones I have out of a scrapped LaZBoy recliner work, and I believe it is also how the ones AussieJester used for his automatically-deployed-balance-wheels worked on his Custom Cruiser.

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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Jan 24 2019 9:06pm

Thanks for the support guys, maybe I'm not ready for the loony bin just yet, after all. Good to know there might be some
merit to this idea. :)

Fechter, your idea of segmented coils and magnets is exactly what I needed. A controllable push and pull. I'll defiantly
research that. Might only need three or four segments. I can see a driver circuit using a sequential pulse generator, or just
halls activating electronic relays, SCR's or switching transistors to power the coils.
Something adjustable would be nice, but all of them are simpler than a 3 phase controller. Lot's a IC circuits to look at,..


I invision a twin set of cylinders about 3 - 4" across, and 6" long or so. But it's too early to get too detailed. I 'do' think the
power is there, though speed might be an issue.
Might even think about a twin journal crank, instead of two rods on one, as well.

Big cold snap in the midwest for the next few days, I'll be forced inside because the little heater in my shop won't cut it,
so it will give me an opportunity to draw up a preliminary concept of the bike, just to see how the sails set.
I'll look into all of your suggestions, thank's!

Adjustable pulse generator..jpg
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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Jan 24 2019 10:29pm

Actually, after thinking about it some more, your right,.. my bad. It would be a row of N and S poles, and the
windings would alternate, just like a motor. Speed should not be an issue.
And pulse circuits are not whats needed. Duh!

I took a quick look at spinningmagnets stepper motor actuator's, and linear motors, and can see there are different
versions, and terms.

Much research to do...

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Jan 25 2019 12:42am

APL wrote:
Jan 24 2019 9:06pm
Big cold snap in the midwest for the next few days, I'll be forced inside because the little heater in my shop won't cut it,
FWIW, a little insulation can go a ways to fix that. ;)

If you don't mind collecting it over time, you can go to your local aquatics stores (anywhere that sells fish that doesnt' breed them all themselves), and see if they'll save all their coolers for you from the shipments. I use such coolers, which are almost always rectangular, either whole or cut the sides as sheets, to insulate stuff on the trike, and my A/C system on the house (both to shade the actual system on the roof from direct sun, and to cover the otherwise "naked" ductwork in the attic), and inside the tin sheds that are my storage and shop(s) (when the backyard itself is unsuitable, which is much of the year).

Then you can either glue the sheets to the walls and cieling, or use drywall screws thru small bits of coroplast or similar, to block heat from escaping as easily. Using strips or sheets to cover air gaps helps even more.

It's not as good as the stuff you can buy in large sheets at home improvement places, which has the metal foil on either side, and better, denser, foam between those, but it's still much better than nothing, and even cheaper. :)

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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Jan 25 2019 9:57pm

Thanks amberwolf, thats a great idea, I love recycling things. I think they should make packaging with that in mind,
then we could use 'all' packaging for all kings of things! :)

I'll check it out,.. it's too cold to do anything right now, dang it's cold,.. Arizona sounds nice right now, maybe I should
come down and visit you for a while! :lol:

I'll see if I can find my sandals ....

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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Jan 25 2019 10:15pm

Hey,.. my little red bugger is from Arizona!

Uh Oh, now Chalo's going to get ticked,.. I showed a car..... :confused:

Blasphemous indignation! :bolt:
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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Jan 25 2019 10:20pm

(As a kid, I used to play in a yellow one of those, or rahter it's shell, out in the fields in rural northeaster Texas.)

Sure, I'll clean out the stuff stored in the spare bedroom. ;) Hopefully you like big fuzzy dogs a lot. :lol:

Put your workshop in a trailer and bring it along, and we'll build some stuff. :) I'll have (hopefully) a week off at the end of February.

I know you're just kidding...but it would be interesting. :)

(Dogman Dan has come for a few days a couple of times, last a few years ago when he helped me start building what became the SB Cruiser...I only had two Saints then, though).

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by wturber » Jan 26 2019 2:32am

We insulated our garage doors with foam a couple years ago and then this year blew in some insulation for the ceiling. The goal was to reduce heat for table tennis in the summer. The foam on the door really helped a lot, but the ceiling insulation has also provided a big benefit. The garage has been surprisingly warm this winter, staying in the '60s while it dropping to the high 30s and low 40s at night. That ceiling insulation is pretty effective.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by amberwolf » Jan 27 2019 12:02am

As long as the gaskets around the doors (especially the biggest one) are good at keeping air exchange to a minimum, it'll work even better.

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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Jan 28 2019 3:12pm

Lost my internet service for a few days,...BRUTAL!! Electricity froze solid right in the wire! :lol:

Anyway,.. insulation would go a long way for sure, I've been lax on that, mostly because I have plans for a bigger shop
in the pole barn, one of these days. I've been trying to finish an old street rod that I've had forever, to sell, and pay for
the shop upgrade. Every spring I say, "this is the summer I finish this dang thing!" Been over seven years now. :?

I'm in to E bikes these days and don't have time for the gas guzzlers any more,.. goes against the grain. Street rods
aren't all 'that' bad though,.. they sit in the garage 90 percent of the time anyway, just suck'n up the money, and never
se the road.

I'm still drawing up the twin linear drive cruiser,.. so many unknowns though. Size,stroke, voltage, power consumption, etc.
I think that if I have enough coils on the cylinders, I can wire them up in WYE or Delta, and use a three phase controller
to run it with. All I would need is a flip flop circuit that alternates the cylinders from push to pull at the ends of the stroke.

My question is, can I use 'two' of the phases from a controller, and leave the third open? If I get the resistance in the coils
to match what the controller wants to see, then I could use an E bike controller. Otherwise, I would have to make two
single phase units.

Just speculation.

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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Jan 29 2019 5:05pm

Well that last question was sure dumb. I had just said I could power the cylinders three phase. :cry:
Oh well, this whole thing is half baked. Bear with,..I'll get it sorted out.

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APL   100 W

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Re: Appel Electric Cruiser

Post by APL » Jan 30 2019 4:56pm

Here's the concept drawing for the Linear Drive bike. It's about as close as you can get to a motorcycle, and still
technically be a bicycle, or E bike.

Minus the stink pipes and the earpopp'n-loud'n-boom'n.

V-5 Twin Linear Motor Concept.jpg
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I didn't draw in a lot of details, because there are so many unknown's, but at least it seems 'plausible'. If I ever get
all my other projects done, I'll do some experiments on a linear ram about this size, to see what happens.

Easier to just throw a DD motor in there and be done with it, for sure,.. but this kind of drive allows you to make it
yourself, and play around with strokes and windings. As shown there are 12 separate sets of windings on each cylinder,
but there could be as many as you want. Air cooling is not a problem.

Pistons would just be rows of small magnets glued around the diameter of an empty cylinder, or pipe.

I threw in a jack shaft gear system behind the seat tube, so that an extra freewheel can be used to separate the pedals
form the motor, which would be a big drag. It also allows for more gearing, and keeps the chain's short.

Batteries go on the rack, or in some saddle bags.

Anyway,.. all I need is another lifetime to do all this stuff. :)

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