Going AWD

I have an Ariel W750 bike with Dapu 750 rear hub motor. I am enjoying it so much I want to get out there and do some rail trails on it. Possibly even camp if the camp grounds have access to power. I get about 40 miles before I am down to one bar and moving under 10mph. I bought a second battery so I should be able to get 80 miles. I will have a bunch of gear though so I am guessing that will drop to 60 miles. Rather than purchase a third battery I think I'd rather install a front wheel hub, second controller, and battery. I can use it up hills and when the rear hub starts to slow too much. I figure that will extend my range plus help extend the life of the rear hub. I found a hub with a 160mm rotor and a battery that will fit nice in my trunk bag. I figure I can just forgo any pedal assist or brake cutoff and make it throttle only. Put the throttle on the left hand side. That is the simplest to setup I can think of. Then I started thinking about sharing sensors or duplicating sensors. I could splice into the brake cutoffs perhaps. Or use one cutoff for one brake and one for the other. The throttle I could potentially splice into as well. Then there is the torque sensor. If I had the same controller then I could perhaps splice into it. Or Dapu makes a crank with integrated torque sensor. Perhaps I could have 2 torque sensors then. And then I have to think about the sensors power. If I want the sensors to work with either system off then I need to hook up the power from both controllers to the sensors. Not sure if that will work or not. So sorry for the long story but I am wondering if all that is worth it or if I should just go with the easy throttle only route? perhaps a throttle with cruise control?

here is the front wheel hub and battery I found. I would like to be able to get 100 miles with up to 300lbs including myself.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016U9O79E/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A12SV6RINCZJP5&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FJ78KF7/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=A3HVN754VQWYKI&psc=1

here is my bike


Thanks for looking. Any advice would be great.

A lot of ES'ers have gone with two motors. A lot of guys use two controllers and one battery. You will get more mileage with two batteries. However, if you put a DD motor on the front of your bike, you will get less mileage then you do now due to the resistance of the motor unless it is energized by the second throttle. You might consider a geared hub motor for your second motor so it will freewheel while you are cursing with your rear motor only.

To get more info, put "two motors" into the google search box at the top right of this page.

Look for 2WD or AWD in the thread titles. Some of the most integrated 2WDs are Teklektik's and AlanB's, with a lot of detail on exactly how things are setup.

Both my trike and bike in my signature are 2WD; both use a single battery to power everything.

If you use separate batteries, it's more redundant, but it's more efficient to parallel all the batteries together, because each one will see less load, so it will be easier on each one and you'll see less voltage sag.

I use separate throttles so I have complete traction control over each motor independently.

I do use one brake lever to control both brakes on teh trike; on the bike I've done it both ways, and using the lever for each wheel (right front, left rear) to control the ebrake on that specific wheel lets me use regen braking on each to do some traction control as well.


Keep in mind that adding another motor will add more weight, so all accelerations and all hill climbs will take more power than they did before.

"You might consider a geared hub motor for your second motor so it will freewheel while you are cursing with your rear motor only." I never would of thought of that.

I dont have much choice on the battery system unless I break away from the form factor I have with the slide in 18mah battery pack. I am fine with having 2 power supplies. 20 mah on the front and 2 18mahs for the back. I am thinking if I use the front up hills only I can make it last through the 2 18mahs. Hopefully that will yield me about 100 miles. That should be enough to wear me out for the day. If I ripped everything out and started over Id put 50 mah in each pannier and be done with it but I don't think I want to go that far. Maybe I should of found this forum sooner and just bought a cruiser and then added my own electric components.

So I need to find a 26" geared front hub wheel that will take a 26"x2.35" tire and a 160mm disc brake, a controller, and a throttle.

Going AWD
I found that I was lacking in hill climbing and range with my stock setup on my Ariel W750. I want to be able to go 100 miles with camping gear on paved trails. Right now I get about 40 miles per battery without the added weight from the gear. So rather than spend $550 on a third 18ah seat tube battery. I wanted to see if I could add a front hub and a battery for around the same price. Thank you to e-beach for pointing out that front hub motor with have resistance if it is direct drive and not energized. Therefore I am going to go with a geared front hub. I have decided it will be the easiest to just make it throttle only and put it on the left hand side. When I reach a hill I can twist the throttle to use the geared motor to pull me up the hill. Then the rear DD motor can take back over when I get up top. I like this idea because it uses each motor for what it is best at. For the battery I am going to put a 36v 20ah battery in my trunk bag. This particular battery's form factor will allow me to add a second 20ah battery later on in the same bag. I plan to just not hook up any brake cutoff or PAS to the controller. Here is what I found:

26" 36v 500w front hub $175 (Display LED, Throttle Thumb, Mount Front)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ebikeling-36V-500W-Geared-Rear-Front-26-Electric-Bicycle-Conversion-Kit/312058788232?var=610800250059
36v 20ah battery $365
https://www.ebay.com/itm/36v-20Ah-Li-ion-Lithium-ion-Battery-Pack-for-Electric-Bike-Scooter-500W-Charger/263929921959
or 30ah $478
https://www.ebay.com/itm/36v-30Ah-Lithium-LiFePO4-Battery-Pack-for-Ebike-Electric-Scooter-High-Power-500W/382562228683

The kit seems to have everything I need. Only issue I see is the rim is 1" and says recommended width is 1.25-2.25 my tires are 2.35 not sure if that will be a problem or not. I guess I could always remove the rim and try to put the motor and spokes into my existing rim? I doubt I will have enough cabling to put everything in the trunk bag. I will have to find those cables after the stuff gets here.

Before Pic of Ariel W750 - 750W/18ah DD Rear hub cruiser. Range about 40 miles to one bar on paved trail with 190lb rider. Top speed 28mph.


After...

First thing first, the rear motor on that bike is a geared motor, not a DD. The fact that the system will reach 28 mph, tells me the system makes good power, but the motor is a high speed range motor(gearing and maybe the winds) and is not optimised for climbing. For max range, you certainly don't want to cruise faster than 25 mph and in fact, 22 to 23 mph would be optimal. So, while there are other motors that would be better for what you want to do, it's a good quality motor so I will humor you and respond to the 2WD idea (something I know a little about).
The Ebiking kit motor, I believe, is a clone of a MXUS motor, but that is incidental, because the quality is good enough. And for sure, the price is right. But I have a few issues w/ it. The controller is huge, certainly larger than it needs to be and the kit does not come w/ Torque arm(s).
Which brings us to, what I think is your biggest fitment issue(the tire doesn't look that big to me and I don't see an issue there).
Frt. mounted motors need to be mounted very securely in a fork w/ strong drop-outs, no room for compromises. Generally, the torque arm(s) is either clamped or bolted to the fork leg. Since it is a springer fork, the pieces adjacent to the axle move relative to the axle so it looks like the TA(s) will have to be secured to the "link(s)" and will likely require some fabrication. I can't tell from the pic, but if the drop-outs are not "beefy", it would be a good idea to use two, one on each side. Cheap genaric TAs' are only avail. from China and are not practical to order unless ordering a bunch of stuff. But Ebike CA offers several styles and while you are on their site, you can read up on TA's in general in their tutorial.
Next issue. You do NOT want to put a large battery in one of the rear bags, it will destroy the bike's handling! Not to mention take up space you need for your gear. You need to use the unused space in frame triangle. The good news is, it can be done, but for a cost premium(I'm leery of Ebay batteries anyhow). Look to either Em3ev or Luna for one of their triangle batt.s, either the hardcase or one w/ a frame bag . While at either site, pick-up a left-hand, half twist throttle as thumb throttle get tiring very quickly. Maybe TA's too.
OK, now that you have the battery ahead of the seat post, the best thing for you to do is to keep both systems independent and the frt. system on the frt. of the bike. What you want to do is going to be complicated enough and trying to intergrate batteries or controllers will quickly get VERY complicated. Just use the rear PAS on long straight streaches, the frt system with the throttle and both on hills. Since the idea of stealth for this bike is long gone, you might mount the controller in the space in the h.bars, although it will be in the weather(Wear a big poncho and drape it over as many of the components as you can in the rain and if it starts to rain hard, park the bike
The key to making this work is the frt. motor mounting. as nothing is worse as having the motor come off @ speed. You need to thoughly understand about "Lawyers lips" hardware spacing and, as mentioned, the TA mounting.
Note: Take a look at my link below to see one of several versions of 2wd I have built. Note the TA, frames bag and how I do two throttles.

Thanks motomech. I am a real noob I know. I assumed it was DD because it is a lot slower off the line than a Pedago I rented at the beach that I know only had the a 350w or 500w. I have been setting it at max pedal assist and pedaling away. I never stop pedaling because I like the exercise. So for range I need to dial it back a bit no problem.

I saw a torque arm as an option a checkout somewhere. I didnt know I needed one. Looked like the wheel would just pop in the forks. I guess that is not heavy duty enough. I would not know how to fabricate anything but I have a friend with a shop who will help me. I will have him look at the dropouts as well. Here is a picture of them. At least a thick as 2 nickels maybe 3.


I was hoping to put my food and snacks in a triangle bag I have. I am not sure how much I care about handling on a cruiser but eventually I was picturing having 2 extra rear batteries in the panniers and 2 20ah batteries in the trunk bag. That would be like 80 pounds in batteries alone. Basically it would feel like someone riding on the back at all times. Yeah that might get annoying but I would only have all those batteries for a trip. Normal cruising around town I would take them out. Ebay has triangle batteries by the way. It is all the same batteries and BMSs from China anyways isnt it? lol.

I agree about keeping them separate. I started thinking about sharing sensors or duplicating them and it made my head hurt. They need to make a controller for two hubs that figures it all out. Then I'll do it.

I need to make sure the geared hub I am getting is set toward the low end right? Also I can't decide whether to bump up to 48v. The batteries are considerably more. The speed gain I heard was in the neighborhood of 30%. I guess that applies to the torque as well? So I am open to any solution but $175 for a complete kit is hard to argue with. ebikes.ca and ebike.com were the other 2 I was looking at.

Adding a second motor will make a huge improvement in acceleration and low speed climbing. It won't change the range much. Of course adding a second battery can help. Keeping the batteries separate may or may not be a good idea. I'd rather have one bigger battery or parallel them (providing they're compatible).

You can see more about my 2WD setup results in the Bonanza thread linked in my signature.

My apologies for not mentioning torque arms and triangle batteries for optimal handling. Motorcycle engines are where they are for a reason. Batteries in the triangle and snacks in the panniers. :wink:

As for a front hub motor, try to purchase a motor that will fit you drop outs or you will be dedicating them by having to file them wider then they are now. (most likely) Once filed you will never be able to use those forks for a regular bike axle again.

As for the torque arms, as stated, they may have to be manufactured custom, unless you can do metal work yourself. Grin has their front torque arms. Check them out to think about if they fit or not.

http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/torque-arms.html

As for the torque arms, as stated, they may have to be manufactured custom, unless you can do metal work yourself. Grin has their front torque arms. Check them out to think about if they fit or not.

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Now that I see the close-up pic, I see that I was wrong. The fork leg goes up and down, but does not change distance from the axel. So a simple generic style(V1) should work. Use the part that fits on the axel and make a short "link" out of flat steel w/ two holes drilled and bolted to the the lower caliper mount.
The drop-outs look fairly sturdy, if the power is kept below 1000 Watts and the Grin TR is used(They fit better, are harder and thicker than others), one should be enough.

Thanks Alan B. I am going to go with a triangle 20ah battery as suggested earlier to power the front hub. That is in addition to the 2 18ah seat tube batteries that run the rear hub. So hopefully the added 15lbs or so for the front hub and battery will not take away more range then it adds.

e-beach thank you for that page on torque arms. Now I understand why I need these things. Yikes. 1000lbs of force on each dropout. Unless that fork and axle were made of hardened steel and machined by Snapon, I wouldn't trust it. It does say though if your running 36v 20a then I don't need them if the dropouts are steel. I am going to take some measurements and ask ebikes. The torque arms, will need to be pretty long reach the tube on the forks. I hope to use some spacers and longer bolts on those springer fork lateral plates so that the torque arms can fit behind them.

motomech thanks. 500w 36v is all i was going to do. v1 if it is long enough to reach the hose clamp on the tube. my drop outs are long to accommodate that springer fork plate. V3 look sliek a good candidate as well.

So a simple generic style(V1) should work. Use the part that fits on the axel and make a short "link" out of flat steel w/ two holes drilled and bolted to the the lower caliper mount.

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I see what you mean now. That is a much shorter distance for sure. and avoids the springer plate?

I am a real noob I know.

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Yes you are. I don't question you're buying a "store bought" Ebike. It actually makes a lot of sense for the rider that doesn't "want to get his hands dirty" and rides the multi-paths 20 or 30 miles on Sunday. There have been times, during my second or third revision that I thought I should have just bought a complete "ready to ride" ebike. But out of these frustrating times, I learned what works and what doesn't and I can repair my bike, along side of the road and in the dark. In this regard, you skipped this learning process and are now resisting what we are telling you.
Have you ever toured on a reg bicycle? There is a Murphy's law of touring that states "The further you go from your home base, the greater the risk of something breaking that will prevent you from making it back".
It's easy to buy/build an Ebike that will go 30 miles in the flat, not so easy to go 100 miles in a day. In fact, I think most of us here might think 100 miles would be pushing it. Add to this, the new requirement of being able to climb hills that are a struggle w/ a single motor.
The single most important realization most of us had to make when we dove into this is the nature of electric motors under a heavy load. It's too involved to go into here, but suffice to say, electric motors are not like a gas engine where the operator can hold the throttle to the stop and let it chug up a hill.

I was hoping to put my food and snacks in a triangle bag I have. I am not sure how much I care about handling on a cruiser but eventually I was picturing having 2 extra rear batteries in the panniers and 2 20ah batteries in the trunk bag. That would be like 80 pounds in batteries alone. Basically it would feel like someone riding on the back at all times. Yeah that might get annoying but I would only have all those batteries for a trip.

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So you are saying, since you won't have to deal w/ 80 lb.s of batteries hanging off the rear of your bike on your daily ride(when you are fresh), it will be ok when touring? Like after you have 5 hours in the saddle, are crossing an overpass and the shoulder has narrowed to 2 feet wide and a crosswind is blowing 20 mph?

It is all the same batteries and BMSs from China anyways isnt it?

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Yamaha makes motorcycles in China and so does Roketa. The Yamaha cost 2 to 3 times more, and while the Roketa is a good deal, are they the same quality? No, not even close. Same w/ Panasonic cells. Batteries, maybe more than most things, are a case of "you get what you pay for".
Your goal of going 100 miles in a day, carrying camping gear and climbing serious hills along the way is a lofty goal and going the "lowest cost way" at this point is probably false economy. Some might say, if you are on a budget, maybe building your own purpose built ebike would have a more economical approach. But that is "water under the bridge now".
Sorry if I sound harsh, we are just trying to impart the seriousness of your goal and prevent some heart ache along the way.

They need to make a controller for two hubs that figures it all out. Then I'll do it.

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They do, but not in the power range we are talking about. There are other ways to do it as well. Look at Teklektik's incredible bike. But he is an electrical engineer and it shows.
The fact is, in normal riding, both motors are not needed most of the time. In city riding, I use 2WD about 25% of the time. Out on the open roads, only when encountering hills or strong headwinds, perhaps 10% of the time.

I need to make sure the geared hub I am getting is set toward the low end right? Also I can't decide whether to bump up to 48v. The batteries are considerably more.

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I am fairly certain that that motor would be a mid-speed (260) motor, which is what you want. You do not need a low-speed motor, because if two motors won't pull you up the hill, you probably shouldn't be on it in the first place. I suspect that I didn't explain what two systems means. To use your total battery capacity, you will be on the frt. more than half the time, so it will have to be able to go 22 to 24 mph. That's what that kit will do on a 48 to 52 Volt battery.
Actually 48 Volt batteries are not "considerably more". Battery capacity is measured in Watt hours, that is; Amp hours X Volts.
And I would strongly recommend you do not overlook the tires. I do not know what tires the Ariel came with, but riding long distances on unfamilular roads carrying a load w/out premium "flat guard" tires and extra thick tube is almost a sure way to get a flat. And you will have to be able to repair a flat as well.

Wow long post. Thanks for taking the time. Although none of it helpful. or even valid really.

Who are you to tell me I dont want to get my hands dirty or ride only Sunday? You dont know me. And I am not going to stay at home just because if I get too far away something might break. What a ridiculous outlook on life. I have a damn cell phone and wallet. I think Ill survive. Its not like I'm riding out in the desert or something.

Putting a 15 pound 20ah pack in the trunk bag is not going to make this so difficult to drive. Have you ever even been on a rail trail? They are paved and easy.

A motocycle is a complex machine a battery is not! I have vaped for a decade but you go on buying Panasonic.

Do you have any actual solutions? Like a specific motor and controller?

The ebay cheapo knockoff won't fit a 2.35 tire. Can a bike shop put those spokes and motor on my rim to fix that issue? anyone?

Hummmmm, I don't think Mototech meant to push a button. And there was useful stuff in his post. I roll around on a bike that is about 80lbs and believe me when it has stopped working and/or I got a flat and I didn't have the tools to repair it on the spot, doing the "walk of shame" is a real drag having to push a heavy bike home. If you have a support system, like a family member or buddy with a truck, it is a real plus.

As far as inexpensive ebay motors, I have run 2.5 inch tires on my yescomusa DD front hub motor. No problem there, but it is not a geared hub motor. As rims go, a lot of inexpensive rims will work. A lot of guys around here use rims like an Alex DM25. For spokes, ask the motor manuracture about spokes, if they aren't responsive then contact Dan's Comp and see what they say.
https://www.danscomp.com/bmx/Parts/Spokes and Nipples/

Also, when a seasoned member of ES is expressing his opinion, don't get mad right away, take a breath, come back to it in a day or two and understand that he is giving you advice even though it seems like he is challenging you. If you get on people's wrong side, they won't help you in the future

That leading link springer fork is welded steel. If the axle flats fit the dropouts, those are near 1/8" thick, and you aren't running more than 350 watts, a torque arm is not necessary. Not a bad idea, mind you, but you don't need to build in the sort of strength you'd need at 4x that power.

Did your front motor plans ever pan out? Perhaps you decided all you needed was a third battery for the range?