72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

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bakaneko   100 W

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72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Nov 24 2018 11:10am

Hello. It is time for me to build my "ultimate, final form" motorized bike. It will hopefully be a electric mid drive bike with a small, removable dc gas generator on the rear rack. The bike should be capable of doing 40mph+ and cruise easily in upper 20s and with only the battery (2 kwH) do 30-40 miles at cruise (no wind, no elevation). With the gas generator, I am not sure on the range it will depend on the engine that I can get and if it all works out but I am hoping for some impressive stats with minimum noise (high idle rev). I decided to go this route instead of a 79cc+ motor because I really like the near instant torque, efficiency, and low noise of electric motors, but I am also realistic about the range hence the gas generator. This model is currently being used in most modern locomotives and cruise ships due to power efficiency curves.

I will be using a Walmart Huffy Nighthawk bike that currently has a 500W rear hub motor. I tried to sell this before starting the new build but no serious bids this late into the season so I will just use it. The batteries will be hoverboard/scooter 36V 4.4aH batteries hooked up in parallel then series for 72V. I will be doing this in 3 phases to properly test everything and not overwhelm myself. It should probably take me into spring to get everything correct.

Phase 1 - Upgrading to the 72V 3000W Cyclone SBP mid drive kit from 36V 500W hub drive
Phase 2 - Adding max batteries from 1.2 kwH to 2 kwH and adding wind break fairings and clear pocket bike wind shield
Phase 3 - Adding the 25-49cc gas generator (200-600W) output to the rear rack

Here is the design. Battery1 and B2 are already on the bike. Originally, I did not know where a third battery pack can go but after watching some YouTube videos of big power DYI ebike riders they make a right and left battery compartment (B3) near the stem of the bike to house the batteries. I was gonna put it under the downtube... B3 will allow me to put in a wind fairing too and with a windshield. I should be able to tuck under this to get real aerodynamic? The added weight of B3 should also help prevent the bike from undesired wheelies. All the batteries are removable with simple nuts and bolts for winter and storage. Let me know if there is any concerns with this design. Pic of current bike too.

Also, this will be a minimal cost build. Not that I am gonna cheap out on absolutely necessary items but it wont be top of the line components and do a lot of DYI. I will do a thorough documentation of this build and thought analysis. The hybrid concept is cool. I know some electric bike guys would never go gas generator and mebe some gas heads here scoof at the range of ebikes, but hopefully this hybrid will be both extremely gas and pollution efficient and also have an incredible 2-3x range of current ebikes. And, the generator is optional and can be easily removed with a few nuts and bolts.
Attachments
nighthawk - 1.jpg
photo 1 (2).JPG

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by Tommm » Nov 24 2018 11:41am

You want a bike rack that has supports on the seat stays. The official capacity of those racks in that form is 5-10kg.

bakaneko   100 W

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Nov 24 2018 11:57am

Yes, thank you for reminding me. When I do the removable gas generator (phase 3), I will reinforce that rear rack with two struts/bars from the frame. I like this rack because it comes off of the seat tube rather than the two small bolts from that small plate above the wheel. I feel that seat tube is sturdier but yes with a vibrating generator on it; I will need to add some supporting bars/struts.

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by Tommm » Nov 24 2018 5:41pm

bakaneko wrote:
Nov 24 2018 11:57am
Yes, thank you for reminding me. When I do the removable gas generator (phase 3), I will reinforce that rear rack with two struts/bars from the frame. I like this rack because it comes off of the seat tube rather than the two small bolts from that small plate above the wheel. I feel that seat tube is sturdier but yes with a vibrating generator on it; I will need to add some supporting bars/struts.
Some racks are sold with the struts/clamps already. Mine was.
Image

bakaneko   100 W

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Nov 27 2018 9:07am

So, I got the motor today (nice 2day shipping) and have it assembled to the point where I just need to put it on and tighten a few bolts and rings. But, I decided to do an experiment before switching over to 72V and run it at 36V, which will allow me to keep my watt meter and charger. I want to see how the cyclone motor compares to the 500W brushless rear hub motor in terms of speed (different gears), range (mile per aH), and acceleration at the same power (watt).

If the performance is good (cruise at 25-30 mph) and top speed (35-40) then I might keep it at 36V but I have to be drawing a lot of amps to achieve these speeds. I have the tools and connectors on the way. Will upgrade my 14AWG wire from my 36V 500W bike to 10AWG before testing the Cyclone at 36V. At 72V, it will run on minimal wiring and 10AWG.

Also, the other thing I am thinking is that the gas generator will produce 24V (300-600W) and with the 72V system I will have to step up 24V to 84V, which is the upper limit of that converter and a lot to ask. But, with the 36V, I will only need to step up to 42V (charging, max) which is much more reasonable to ask the step-up converter.

Hope to get it all assembled and ready to go at 36V by the end of this weekend.

bakaneko   100 W

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Dec 10 2018 1:57pm

I have the Cyclone on the bike. Just working out some of the smaller details now. Will post a video soon. But in the mean time, I found this very well done serial hybrid from Estonia. Noticed, the low RPMs on the motor and low noise. I was also a gas motorized biker and motorcyclist so I can tell you this engine noise is very, very low.

Build

https://youtu.be/dHSR1rN3w8k



Ride

https://youtu.be/H2v7kRaEkZM

Also, and I will post this in technical, does anyone know if it is better to have a 36V 32aH battery or a 72V 16aH battery for a high power ebike (3000W Cyclone). I am not so sure. A few considerations also is that the serial generator will probably work better on a 36V system.

bakaneko   100 W

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Dec 10 2018 10:43pm

Hi. So, I finished a few things and went on a ride testing 36V at different gears. The first thing I learned is that this Walmart bike shifter is crap and that I cannot shift to 1st gear or my pedal chain will derail and I will have to push the bike back home or get the chain back on the ring in the road (requires actually removing the pedal and chainring since its so close to the bike frame). So, because the Walmart bike shifter is finnicky, I cannot shift to 2nd gear because sometimes it jumps to 1st and well thats trouble. So, I will just use 3rd to 6th gear, which is oke. I still have to program the controller and throttle but I think I understand why the power is not as high as I expected. At 36V, I think the max rpm of the engine is only 400 rpm with a max of 900 rpm at 84V.

On my 500W rear hub, I was going 17-19 mph at ~400W. I am getting about the same performance at that power level in 4th gear. It is hard to sustain the throttle without programming. I really need to program it; I think the RPM is hitting max and cutting the motor. In 6th gear, I am topping at 30 mph at about 1000-1200W. That being said, I am definitely going to change it to 72V tomorrow. I will need to figure out charging situation and wont be able to see power levels or aH used until I get a proper watt meter. The throttle has a voltage reading, which seems to be 0.6V less than what is shown on my watt meter.

Here is a video of me riding to some fun 80s music... People I showed it to say it is funny. Was trying to be serious. :oops: 1st video camera angle was not optimal and rearview mirror fell off at the end :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1W2ItP ... e=youtu.be

bakaneko   100 W

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Dec 12 2018 1:42pm

Hi. So I switched the bike to 72V and there is a ton of power. I understand why the throttle is set to soft start 5 now (1-10 and soft and hard). I havent really opened it up yet to see what it can do but I went on a 10 mile errand ride that I typically take with my 500W rear hub and recorded it. Since I dont have a watt meter with the 72V setup it was difficult to do a direct comparison. On the 500W, I averaged like 2 miles per 1 aH. Here on the 72V Cyclone, I think going to the store (5mi) I used about 3V drop in resting voltage and coming back it was only like 2V drop, which is 1.5V and 1V respectively on my 36V 500W ebike. I think that is pretty decent. For the efficiency test, I pedal about the same as I would on my 500W.

Also, during this ride, I understand the limits of the scooter batteries. There is significant voltage sag when I really want speed +30 mph. Gonna muck around with it a bit more and clean it well then start gathering and brainstorming about phase 3 (gas generator). I am not going to do phase 2 (more batteries and aerodynamics) right away as I need to make sure my battery configuration matches what I have so the batteries dont blow up when I parallel charge all of them. But, the gas generator is key to this build. At the moment, if I get about 2-2.5 mile per V that is about 30-40 mile range (discounting some) from full charge 84V to 66V (not gonna hit that). I want more than that.

Here is the video. I am still learning but I fixed the awful static noise. Music is on and off. I will fix camera angle in next ride. :roll:

https://youtu.be/TH3yo70NMFE
https://youtu.be/9UeSSuQYxFg

bakaneko   100 W

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Feb 02 2019 7:36pm

just quick ukpdate been busy. i will still do generator. had two things go wrong with bike, the walmart rear wheel cassette broke it would not free wheel anymore making the chain jump the pedal chain ring a lot and i had the ebike controller shut down after getting it too wet. so, i changed the rear wheel and moved the controller much higher and have a bag on it for now. will make a water tight compartment for it and wires when i redesign the battery boxes.

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by dustNbone » Feb 02 2019 10:39pm

Careful sealing up your controller in an enclosure. They need cooling.

Better to seal where the wires enter as best you can, facing down if at all possible with a drip loop to prevent water seeping up them and inside the box.

That will leave the metal heat shedding surfaces of the controller in open air and able to do their job shedding heat.

bakaneko   100 W

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Feb 06 2019 8:17pm

Yeah, sorry, I mean't this is just temporary until I find time to make a compartment for the controller that is water tight. But, then I want to also redo my battery boxes so that they provide an air channel between cell packs and can be removed from the bike quicker. Right now, it takes so long for me to remove the custom battery boxes I made. I need to be closer to commercial battery mounts where it releases in like 2-5 seconds.

Also, I decided what kinda generator I want to make. I found this killer good video that has a great way to couple the gas engine shaft to the dc generator shaft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dj3lgvmDMQ

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by Tommm » Feb 06 2019 9:34pm

bakaneko wrote:
Feb 06 2019 8:17pm
Yeah, sorry, I mean't this is just temporary until I find time to make a compartment for the controller that is water tight. But, then I want to also redo my battery boxes so that they provide an air channel between cell packs and can be removed from the bike quicker. Right now, it takes so long for me to remove the custom battery boxes I made. I need to be closer to commercial battery mounts where it releases in like 2-5 seconds.

Also, I decided what kinda generator I want to make. I found this killer good video that has a great way to couple the gas engine shaft to the dc generator shaft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dj3lgvmDMQ
How do you plan in harnessing energy, an inverter? What about charging the battery?

Using a brushed dc motor as a generator, I'm thinking you could cut out some steps it you matched the RPM of the gas motor to the input operating voltage of the motor controller. It is harder to charge a battery because they require a moving voltage as the battery state of charge rises. But a controller that can take 36v to 72v, you can roughly target, by choosing the motor with the right winding (kv) and gas engine with the right rpm range.

https://www.quora.com/Can-a-DC-motor-be ... -generator

bakaneko   100 W

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Feb 06 2019 9:42pm

I was planning on using a 1500W step up converter and stepping up the 24V to 83V or 84V. The specifications of the converter is below. Yeah, I know it is asking a lot for the converter to step up from 16-24V to 83-84V. I dunno. Also, I don't think I mentioned it so I still have the 500W 36V motor and was planning on making a folding spare bike in case this one needs repair or work. That one would seem more suitable for a 16-24V generator to step up to 41-42V. I found a beef up 36V controller that does 38A I need to ask this forum about so if that controller can push the 500W rear hub motor to 30 mph then I might sell the Cyclone and do that. But here is that converter I was looking at to bridge the gas generator to the motor/battery.


1500W 30A Step up Converter

Features:
Module properties: non-isolated step-up module (BOOST)
Input voltage: DC 10V~60V
Input current: 10~30V input voltage, maximum current 30A
31~60V input voltage, maximum current 25A
Quiescent current: 15 mA (12V liter 20V, the output voltage, the higher the current will increase too quiet)
Output voltage: 12~90V continuously adjustable
Constant] range: 0.8~20A(±0.3A)
Temperature: -40~ + 85℃(ambient temperature is too high, please enhance heat dissipation)
Operating frequency: 150 KHz
Conversion efficiency: 92% ~ 97%
Low battery protection: yes
Input reverse polarity protection: yes
Enter the anti-reverse protection: yes
Short circuit protection: yes
Installation: 4 x 3 mm screw holes
Module size(L*W*H): 130 x 52 x 85 mm

bakaneko   100 W

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Feb 17 2019 10:35am

Sorry for the spam and delay. I've been busy with new jobs and school. You know you just don't want to do anything after a long day of work and just be a vegetable in front of the TV or computer. But anyway, I would like to say I hate chains, chains, chains. Again, since I am so busy or tired, I hate working on my bike to adjust the chain that is why I bought an electric motor to not do that... Hub motor probably better for real lazy people that just dont want to be bother.

And, onto the update, I will buy the major components tonight - 2 stroke 25cc engine, 400-500W generator, step up converter and get moving to finish this build. I do have a few other things I want to talk about regarding electric bikes in the cold and what not but I'll save that for later. Here is a rough schematic of what I will do. Let me know if you see a major flaw.

Based on work from others and tutorial from Creative Channel on YouTube. Also, if that step up from 20-24V to 83V is too much I will swap out the bike to my 36V 500W rear hub motor to test and perfect and then later switch to a 52V system on a 1000-1500W hub motor.

https://motorbicycling.com/threads/elec ... der.58823/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dj3lgvmDMQ
Attachments
Final Generator Design.jpg
Final Generator Design.jpg (58.5 KiB) Viewed 3579 times
generator.jpg
generator.jpg (72.58 KiB) Viewed 3579 times

bakaneko   100 W

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Feb 20 2019 8:51pm

Okay, so I really need to slow down; I made a couple of bad assumptions, which I followed up and caught. I did not buy the parts on Sunday but just now. Here is where I fooked up.



#1 - My worry was right. According to the vendor, but he said that a 18-22V cannot be step up to 83V, which was my concern. I think what would happen in this case is that you just get a lot of heat and huge inefficiencies which would eventually make the converter go boom. But, he said I can step up 18-22V to 41-43V... And, I also saw a video review of the same converter on Amazon where a guy steps up 14V to 48V for his ebike batteries. So... I guess I would be changing the battery setup back to 36V (thank goodness for my modular battery setup) and basically cutting my power potential in half. I could try to test it at 83V and assume mebe the vendor was just being too safe but I dunno... At 36V nominal, it means I wont be at 3000W max continuous but at 1500W max continuous or closer to 1000-1200W, which is a little over 30 mph. Still decent but yeah I won't attempt to hit 50 mph now when I'm back at 36V and it is too cold now to even attempt 50 mph at 72V. Much later, I can try running two step up converters in series to go from 20V to 42V to 83V...



#2 - The video I linked and am reference uses a 33cc 2-stroke engine that had 4 mount holes at the bottom of the engine block. I assumed this was the same for 25cc. Nope, there are no engine mount holes on the bottom. I went to the hardware store (work there) and had a real good look and inspection of the 25cc. I think I can use the bottom front shaft screw hole and the back gas two screw holes as locators. I don't think they can serve as mounts as I think they are not engine block holes especially the two in the back, which just go to hard plastic. So, I will need to provide an additional clamp or straps to get it on the plate securely and resist vibrations.



In terms of the plan, Imma do the following over the next month or so so its ready to roll in mid March just in time for spring break where I can take off from work and if I am confident go on an epic tour.



1. Test the 25cc motor operation - start up, choke, idle, rev ranges

2. Assemble the generator setup

3. Test the converter for voltage ranges, current, and memory (turn it off)

4. Assemble the mounting plate on bike

5. Test the generator and ebike only (no battery); make sure it runs

6. Test entire system together for functionality

7. Route generator throttle line to unused gear changer on handle bar and check power levels. This might not work; the throttle play in videos for the 25cc looks real twitchy. Ideally, I like to be able to set the generator power level from the handle bars and not have to stop and change the idle.

bakaneko   100 W

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Feb 22 2019 1:03pm

ultimate cringe video of gas generator build plan :mrgreen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQyt_-qN1ng

bakaneko   100 W

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Feb 25 2019 6:21pm

Parts are here. The 500W generator is huge; total weight is about 15lbs I estimate. Man I hope there isnt going to be a stalling issue from the small 25cc motor. The 1500W converter is much larger than expected too. It has a huge heat sink and fan. And, it is so cold here. I might fire up the engine wed-thur this week if not it will be the following weekend. It is gonna be a cold one for a while... sigh
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iOn <-+-> uOil   1 mW

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by iOn <-+-> uOil » Feb 26 2019 4:58pm

Can u run it on 99% ethanol ? (some call it alcohol )but might than try drinking it ;)
Truth hurts

Domhelp   100 mW

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by Domhelp » Feb 27 2019 10:51pm

This is a complicated build and you said your reason was because you like the torque of electric instead of going straight gas. Why not do a gas and electric hybrid drive with no generator? Much simpler and more practical. Of course you are probably doing it for the hell of it instead of for practical reasons.

bakaneko   100 W

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Feb 28 2019 9:24am

Domhelp wrote:
Feb 27 2019 10:51pm
This is a complicated build and you said your reason was because you like the torque of electric instead of going straight gas. Why not do a gas and electric hybrid drive with no generator? Much simpler and more practical. Of course you are probably doing it for the hell of it instead of for practical reasons.
I think this is going to end up okay in the end. I haven't hooked up or fired up the engine yet. Its cold and man you just don't want to go to the garage and do anything. But, I will work on the engine mount this weekend inside without firing up the engine.

I decided to do it this way because I did not want to have two drive trains (double the failure points) and wanted the closest to a freewheel system (non cogging) as possible as I do like to manual bike. A traditional gas bike will have a left wheel single sprocket setup with the engine and then a gear reduction box. There is cogging or resistance here even if they advertise freewheel or whatever because the drive train chains and/or belt needs to be very very tight and there is no freewheel on that left side wheel sprocket. Imagine having a 2000W rear hub along with a tight chain on the left. You will literally go max 4-6 mph manually pedaling.

This setup itself is inspired by modern cruise ships and diesel-electric locomotive drive systems. In both, a diesel generator powers electric motors. Its like the best of both there. Modern cruise ships has huge advantages over traditional diesel engines as you guys probably know. I've also had many electric and gas bikes and know the current offering of gas engines pretty well so yeah I don't want to deal with all of that stuff anymore. The gas generator will hopefully run at a low RPM at max as to extend motor life and also minimize maintenance.

That's the goal anyways. We will see.

SlowCo   1 MW

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by SlowCo » Feb 28 2019 12:36pm

Wow just imagine how awesome it could have been if you would have put all the extra time, money and weight of the generator build into more batteries (and motor/controller)... :wink:

bakaneko   100 W

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Feb 28 2019 8:22pm

SlowCo wrote:
Feb 28 2019 12:36pm
Wow just imagine how awesome it could have been if you would have put all the extra time, money and weight of the generator build into more batteries (and motor/controller)... :wink:
:bigthumb: no, but this cost me $150 in total and probably like $10-20 in materials from here. I am on gasbike forums too. Lots of guys there are getting sick and tired of the reliability of some of the china girl kits. This is a different approach; the target price is $600-700 so for gas bikers it will be a higher premium build.

Bike = $100
1kW rear hub (real basic) = $150
600wH+ scooter batteries = $200
200W nominal, 500W peak gas generator = $150
72V 1kW controller for motor to match batteries = $50
Parts = $50
===================
That is about $700. A really barebone unreliable gasbike build is like $120 for the kit. Guys there typically speed $500-700 for a decent rig and upwards for something real reliable and nice. This experiment has been well received so far from gas bikers for a 30mph ebike with a gas generator system that can extend range a lot.

Again, once I get it together and am comfortable with the quality, I will do some extensive testing over a range of miles and speeds. Keep tune.

iOn <-+-> uOil   1 mW

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by iOn <-+-> uOil » Mar 01 2019 6:55am

But when you count in the defective parts from your combustion engine in the next 10 years and the fuel and lubricating oil fro the next 5 years (about what and battery would last.)
And what would it look like when you get to have a seized-up piston ? :bigthumb:

get some quality flexible 100w solar panels and a bigger betterie.

To the admins i want say we need a hybrid forums category. for our partly petroll-heads...
Truth hurts

bakaneko   100 W

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by bakaneko » Apr 16 2019 8:53pm

Not sure if anyone here is interested in the progression of this build. I know that many ebike guys hate gas bikes or ICE vehicles. But, there might be some here. Also, the generator that I got the Sportsman 1000 is CARB compliant and very quiet (relative to a motorcycle and gas bikes). But, in any case, the proof of concept is "complete". I have a generator producing 160W to my 72V 3000W Cyclone and 1200wH (probably not even close at this point) battery with opportunity to get up to 500W charge. It is messy but will do exactly what a proof of concept is designed to do tell me if it works and how well it works. The actually prototype if I decide to continue will be in fall/winter 2019 and be an inframe generator with top tube battery and modular battery design with plug and play rear hub motor setup.

Here it is guys. And, as I mentioned before, once I can charge my ebike on a supercharging network and that network is near as prolific as gas stations I will toss this idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrOiYNt ... e=youtu.be

SlowCo   1 MW

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Re: 72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

Post by SlowCo » Apr 17 2019 7:20am

:lol:

All that room, weight and cost (incl. fuel) would have been so much better if it had been put towards more battery...
Then you would have had a quiet bike with longer range :wink:

But I applaud your creative build and going through with it :thumb:

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