PWD's Rocky Mountain Element - 2WD

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pwd   1 kW

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Re: PWD's Rocky Mountain Element - refresh

Post by pwd » May 25 2020 12:19pm

goatman wrote:
May 25 2020 11:28am
100amp from 7p is 14a/cell, whats the volt sag?

im planning 60amp from 4p or 15a/cell max burst
I'm pulling 110A peak which is actually ~15.7A per cell. My pack resistance is about 47 milli-ohms so it sags about 5.17V at peak. Ambient Temperature around 25 C.
Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element
Magic Pie 4 front + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ WCEC 18fet
Samsung 40T 14S7P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2019 Rocky Mountain Blizzard 20
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette
em3ev 14S5P 30Q or 14S6P 25R pack

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pwd   1 kW

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Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: PWD's Rocky Mountain Element - refresh

Post by pwd » Jun 07 2020 10:16am

The new battery pack seems to be working well, even on our hottest week (so far), the BMS and two temp sensors (sitting on top the nickle strip) only went a few degrees above ambient.

I decided two paint the battery box to hold the rust back. I applied some seam sealer (like rubber caulking but for metal) and gave it a few quick coats of primer and satin black.
IMG_20200604_095707.jpg
IMG_20200604_095707.jpg (261.46 KiB) Viewed 588 times
Here is a shot of the pack out of the bike:
IMG_20200604_095745.jpg
IMG_20200604_095745.jpg (223.44 KiB) Viewed 588 times
Last edited by pwd on Jun 14 2020 9:07am, edited 2 times in total.
Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element
Magic Pie 4 front + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ WCEC 18fet
Samsung 40T 14S7P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2019 Rocky Mountain Blizzard 20
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette
em3ev 14S5P 30Q or 14S6P 25R pack

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pwd   1 kW

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Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: PWD's Rocky Mountain Element - refresh

Post by pwd » Jun 07 2020 10:23am

I am having a slight issue with the motor temp gauge reading "sagging" or "dropping" when I really hammer the throttle. For example lets say I hit hit open throttle and am pulling peak current from my pack, the temp gauge will appear drop around 15%. When I let off the throttle, the temp reading jumps back up.

The temp guage is powered by a DC to DC board (pack voltage to 13.4 VDC) (positive and negative wire) and the 10K NTC thermister signal (one wire) is coming from the motor.

Any ideas? :?:
Last edited by pwd on Jun 12 2020 4:33pm, edited 1 time in total.
Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element
Magic Pie 4 front + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ WCEC 18fet
Samsung 40T 14S7P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2019 Rocky Mountain Blizzard 20
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette
em3ev 14S5P 30Q or 14S6P 25R pack

goatman   10 MW

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Re: PWD's Rocky Mountain Element - refresh

Post by goatman » Jun 08 2020 7:25pm

do you think the high amps is messing with the signal where all the wires are squished in the motor axle?

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pwd   1 kW

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Re: PWD's Rocky Mountain Element - refresh

Post by pwd » Jun 09 2020 2:15pm

Perhaps there is some interference from the phase cables but I would guess others would have a similar issue with any hub motor w/ a temp sensor. So far, I haven't been able to find a case like that. Unfortunately, I don't have a great electrical knowledge to know if that is even a factor.
Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element
Magic Pie 4 front + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ WCEC 18fet
Samsung 40T 14S7P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2019 Rocky Mountain Blizzard 20
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette
em3ev 14S5P 30Q or 14S6P 25R pack

goatman   10 MW

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Re: PWD's Rocky Mountain Element - refresh

Post by goatman » Jun 14 2020 10:51am

I was reading this thread
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=106663

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pwd   1 kW

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Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: PWD's Rocky Mountain Element - refresh

Post by pwd » Jun 15 2020 5:49pm

Thank you, that is an interesting problem and may be related to the issue I'm having with the temp reading. I'll have to do some troubleshooting.
Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element
Magic Pie 4 front + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ WCEC 18fet
Samsung 40T 14S7P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2019 Rocky Mountain Blizzard 20
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette
em3ev 14S5P 30Q or 14S6P 25R pack

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pwd   1 kW

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Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: PWD's Rocky Mountain Element - refresh

Post by pwd » Jul 22 2020 9:37am

I've been out riding the bike (mostly) daily and it is performing well. The side offset (approximately 7mm) of the front tire was bugging me a bit and I had been itching for a wider front tire/rim as well. I had ordered a 26 x 2.4 Schwalbe SuperMoto-X to replace my 26 x 2.0 Schwalbe Marathon. The new rim I chose is the Alex DM24 26" (from ebikes.ca). The spokes are Sapim (from ebikes.ca). I used the ebikes.ca spoke calculator and it worked out perfectly! Here is a shot of the offset tire before:
IMG_20200610_110905.jpg
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IMG_20200610_111007.jpg
IMG_20200610_111007.jpg (185.91 KiB) Viewed 462 times
Lacing the new rim:
IMG_20200610_133622.jpg
IMG_20200610_133622.jpg (217.04 KiB) Viewed 462 times
Old bike as truing stand:
IMG_20200610_165437.jpg
IMG_20200610_165437.jpg (212.74 KiB) Viewed 462 times
Here is the new tire/rim on the bike.:
IMG_20200610_183445.jpg
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IMG_20200610_183842.jpg
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I am pretty happy with the result. I could have went with an 8mm offset vs 7mm but I can re-adjust in the future. The spokes and spoke nipples from Grin were easy to work with vs the cheaper ones I'm used to with pre-laced hub-motor kits. I'll be doing the lacing for my self from now on.
Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element
Magic Pie 4 front + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ WCEC 18fet
Samsung 40T 14S7P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2019 Rocky Mountain Blizzard 20
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette
em3ev 14S5P 30Q or 14S6P 25R pack

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thundercamel   1 kW

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Re: PWD's Rocky Mountain Element - refresh

Post by thundercamel » Jul 22 2020 10:11am

Let us know how you like it. I have the same tire in 20" form, also with an alex DM24 on the front of my recumbent bike. It's nice on the pavement, but most of the trails around me are sandy gravel, and I'm about to try a Smart Sam as a second wheel to swap to. I also have a wider wheel to try, since the Super Moto-X is much wider than the rim. Lacing your own wheels feels great, doesn't it?

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My Ebike builds - Existing bikes, affordable motor kits, self built 14s6p batteries - Now with more recumbent!

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pwd   1 kW

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Re: PWD's Rocky Mountain Element - refresh

Post by pwd » Jul 28 2020 10:25am

The SuperMoto-X tire is working great and it noticeably taller than the previous tire I was running; which is good. Very happy. The tread pattern appears very similar to the Big Ben Plus which I'm running on the rear.

In other news; I had damaged my BMS (heavy rain, not sealed) a while back and have been running a new one. The repair to the old one only worked for a few hours; I thought I was in the clear. Call me crazy but the new BMS (ANT BMS 320A - same as the old) appears to perform better! I'm not sure if it is because it is using different mosfets or what but my voltage sag seems less than before. That is a nice silver lining.

I have since turned up the max battery amps on the rear controller from 85A to 115A and the difference is noticeable although with diminishing returns. My battery pack is now delivering peaks of 7kw. I estimate my actually peak power output of the bike is somewhere around 4.6 kw. I've added a small 60 x 25 48V fan for fun:
IMG_20200722_105941.jpg
fan
IMG_20200722_105941.jpg (228.46 KiB) Viewed 429 times
Recent shot of the bike:
IMG_20200722_105924.jpg
bike
IMG_20200722_105924.jpg (237.37 KiB) Viewed 429 times
Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element
Magic Pie 4 front + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ WCEC 18fet
Samsung 40T 14S7P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2019 Rocky Mountain Blizzard 20
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette
em3ev 14S5P 30Q or 14S6P 25R pack

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pwd   1 kW

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Joined: Oct 11 2011 12:01pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: PWD's Rocky Mountain Element - 2WD

Post by pwd » Sep 04 2020 12:51pm

I've completed a new front controller upgrade to the bike this week. I ordered this simulated sine-wave controller a couple of months ago:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32959235022.html
HTB1RZuvX.vrK1RjSszfq6xJNVXaT.jpg
HTB1RZuvX.vrK1RjSszfq6xJNVXaT.jpg (225.94 KiB) Viewed 275 times
The goal was to (finally) replace my Magic Pie 4 internal controller. Although the controller still worked; it wasn't able to be programmed anymore and it had some glitches that I wanted to eliminate. The glitches were:

abrupt accelleration from start. Even with acceleration turned down it felt jerky.

regen wouldn't work unless I was below 56.5V; not ideal since I pretty much always top up my pack right before riding. I rely heavily on regen braking force on the front and rear.

when I exceeded the Magic Pie's max rpm, it was if regen braking would suddenly engage unless I disabled it's throttle signal to the controller

When the new controller arrived, I was uncertain if it was in fact, a programmable Infineon 4 clone/xie chang controller like I was hoping for. I opened it up and had a look. It seems promising as the board looked similar to other Infineon 4 style controllers I've seen online. The board says "606-THP-5" which is a good indicator that is actually a KH6XX type controller. I added some leads to the +5, GND, SDA, RXD and TXD spots on the board.
IMG_20200901_141129.jpg
controller marking
IMG_20200901_141129.jpg (262.29 KiB) Viewed 275 times
Once I figured out the correct wiring to the USB-to-Serial adapter as seen here
vrrxt9_thumb.jpeg
vrrxt9_thumb.jpeg (8.22 KiB) Viewed 275 times
I was able to successfully program it using the XPD controller software! After soldering the matching motor and throttle/brake connectors (re-used the magic pie waterproof connector) I gave the motor a test spin. The motor phase cable and hall sensor wires matched colour for colour with the controller (a nice bonus :mrgreen: ).

After a few trial runs; I figured out that I needed to jump the BK to GND on the board to enable regen even though I had enabled it in the firmware. I was also able to get the motor rpms to "130%" which is right around what I was hoping for. This is probably like a phase advance, basically the poor man's flux weakening. This allows the front motor to help the rear motor out as it nears max rpm. Not a bad feature set for a $60 USD controller in my opinion. I would have went with a Greentime or KT controller but they do not seem to have this ability.

removing the original controller and running a new controller wire harness to outside the hub motor
IMG_20200902_093158.jpg
magic pie 4
IMG_20200902_093158.jpg (375.19 KiB) Viewed 275 times
BK jumped to GND to enable regen:
IMG_20200903_160948.jpg
new controller opened
IMG_20200903_160948.jpg (507.85 KiB) Viewed 275 times

After having the bike out for a couple shakedown tests; I'm very happy with the new controller. The acceleration is much smoother and all my glitches are gone. I'm keeping the controller at 25A battery 75A phase which is pretty much the same setting as the original magic pie 4 controller although it feels like it has a bit more punch. The bike is working like a dream now.
IMG_20200904_124356.jpg
the bike with new controller
IMG_20200904_124356.jpg (481.78 KiB) Viewed 275 times
Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element
Magic Pie 4 front + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ WCEC 18fet
Samsung 40T 14S7P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2019 Rocky Mountain Blizzard 20
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette
em3ev 14S5P 30Q or 14S6P 25R pack

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pwd   1 kW

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Posts: 426
Joined: Oct 11 2011 12:01pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: PWD's Rocky Mountain Element - 2WD

Post by pwd » Sep 27 2020 2:25pm

The bike has been working well and is more enjoyable without the kinks of the old front controller. Shorty after I installed the front controller; I trimmed out all the un-used cables for a cleaner look.
IMG_20200904_151514.jpg
IMG_20200904_151514.jpg (271.15 KiB) Viewed 171 times
I've sealed up the top where the cables exist with black liquid tape for a good from far appearance. It's definitely more weather resistant now and the front controller blends in enough for my needs.
IMG_20200919_142749.jpg
IMG_20200919_142749.jpg (508.96 KiB) Viewed 171 times
I'm considering grinding down the magic pie shells and paining them black over the winter. That will be after a fork and rear shock maintenance.
Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element
Magic Pie 4 front + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ WCEC 18fet
Samsung 40T 14S7P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2019 Rocky Mountain Blizzard 20
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette
em3ev 14S5P 30Q or 14S6P 25R pack

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ZeroEm   100 kW

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Re: PWD's Rocky Mountain Element - 2WD

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 27 2020 2:57pm

Great job, lacing your own wheels is a good skill.
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2019 Performer E-Trike 9w/km
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