TESLA high performance tuning discusion

MrDude_1 said:
Arlo1 said:
Lmfao yes anyone who thinks you need weight to make a car faster is brain dead. Lighter is faster.
same with thinking you need 4wd. :lol:

I do find it funny when people are talking about modding cars for "the quickest" without ever looking up what a couple rednecks can do with a 50 year old car. never-mind what actual pros and engineers can do... :lol:


You are correct like the record speed factory has with a FWD civic running 7.xx in the 1/4 and the Top fuel guys running in the 3s

But with electrics there is no weight penalty to have AWD. You can have a motor/controller/battery that weighs the same as 2 smaller motors and 2 smaller controllers with the same battery for AWD. Or Even 4 even smaller motors and controllers. So AWD will almost always be faster with electrics.
 
Arlo1 said:
MrDude_1 said:
Arlo1 said:
Lmfao yes anyone who thinks you need weight to make a car faster is brain dead. Lighter is faster.
same with thinking you need 4wd. :lol:

I do find it funny when people are talking about modding cars for "the quickest" without ever looking up what a couple rednecks can do with a 50 year old car. never-mind what actual pros and engineers can do... :lol:


You are correct like the record speed factory has with a FWD civic running 7.xx in the 1/4 and the Top fuel guys running in the 3s

But with electrics there is no weight penalty to have AWD. You can have a motor/controller/battery that weighs the same as 2 smaller motors and 2 smaller controllers with the same battery for AWD. Or Even 4 even smaller motors and controllers. So AWD will almost always be faster with electrics.


you mean.. once the exceed the limits of acceleration with 2 tires, THEN 4wd will always be faster... until then, its always possible to have the quickest one be 2 wheel drive... you pointed out a FWD car thats quicker.. and there are a ton of RWD ones that are quicker as well.
 
There is no question about it.

For drag racing, RWD with a properly setup suspension is king. Parasitic drivetrain loss, extra weight, and turning the front tires when they are weightless or near weightless is not going to help you when going for all out straight line acceleration.

For street driving, AWD is so much easier to drive sportier with control and will almost always be faster unless the road conditions are ideal for HEATED drag radials to hook - no one is stupid enough to run slicks on the street and it is pretty hard to find a waterbox on the road right before mashing the skinny pedal, haha. Things like debris, road surface conditions, and the fact that tracks have VHT compound on them make a big difference.
 
ecycler said:
There is no question about it.

For drag racing, RWD with a properly setup suspension is king. Parasitic drivetrain loss, extra weight, and turning the front tires when they are weightless or near weightless is not going to help you when going for all out straight line acceleration.

For street driving, AWD is so much easier to drive sportier with control and will almost always be faster unless the road conditions are ideal for HEATED drag radials to hook - no one is stupid enough to run slicks on the street and it is pretty hard to find a waterbox on the road right before mashing the skinny pedal, haha. Things like debris, road surface conditions, and the fact that tracks have VHT compound on them make a big difference.
This is a misconception based on findings from ICE powertrains

With EVs you don't have any additional weight or parasitic losses in the addition of front motors.

This changes the game greatly.

You might want to use top fuel as a data point which is the only fast car that can keep the front wheels in the air the whole 1/4 mile. But you want the front on the ground enough to steer so they add things like wings for down force and even a light amount of thrust added to the front wheels will help them accel a little faster. But all other drag cars would be faster as AWD when talking about Electrics.

Remember the motor and controller weight for 1000hp applied to just the rear wheels VS 2 or 4 motors and controllers still totaling to 1000hp will weigh about the same.
 
Arlo1 said:
ecycler said:
There is no question about it.

For drag racing, RWD with a properly setup suspension is king. Parasitic drivetrain loss, extra weight, and turning the front tires when they are weightless or near weightless is not going to help you when going for all out straight line acceleration.

For street driving, AWD is so much easier to drive sportier with control and will almost always be faster unless the road conditions are ideal for HEATED drag radials to hook - no one is stupid enough to run slicks on the street and it is pretty hard to find a waterbox on the road right before mashing the skinny pedal, haha. Things like debris, road surface conditions, and the fact that tracks have VHT compound on them make a big difference.
This is a misconception based on findings from ICE powertrains

With EVs you don't have any additional weight or parasitic losses in the addition of front motors.

This changes the game greatly.

You might want to use top fuel as a data point which is the only fast car that can keep the front wheels in the air the whole 1/4 mile. But you want the front on the ground enough to steer so they add things like wings for down force and even a light amount of thrust added to the front wheels will help them accel a little faster. But all other drag cars would be faster as AWD when talking about Electrics.

Remember the motor and controller weight for 1000hp applied to just the rear wheels VS 2 or 4 motors and controllers still totaling to 1000hp will weigh about the same.

Glad we agree on the application of AWD for street cars. I think every P90D ever to hit the road fits in that bucket.

As far as the all out drag racing discussion goes. Let's use the Top Fuel dragster. You are positing that the future fastest drag racing car to ever tackle the quarter mile one day will be AWD? I am certain it will be an EV drivetrain at some point, but I don't think that driving the front wheels will be advantageous in this scenario. That was the point I was chiming in to make.
 
Where as I say it will be.

If the wheels are needed to steer the car then they should be in contact with the pavement and in that case if there not powered they will slow the car down.

So if they are powered it will be faster/quicker.

Unless you plan to drag race segways.....
 
If you have the right level of control per rear wheel, it would make steering with the front wheels unneeded redundancy. Tractor-pull vehicles an an example it's possible even with crude technology vehicles who's front wheels are used just for ease of positioning the vehicle before the race, as they steer it through independent rear wheel brake control during the run.
 
Also, don't forget that they have imposed engine rev and final drive ratio limits to try to cap the trap speeds for safety reasons. This is why they have been stuck around the 330ish mph traps for the past 15-20 years. It is also one of the reasons why I lost interest in following the sport. At 2ish seconds they are really hitting their best power/acceleration and at 2.5s... they are pulling timing and being neutered by the regulations. They are only giving it their all for a bit over half of the run. The front wheels should practically be weightless to the finish line for best performance. An electric variant that did not have these BS regulations to reduce its performance would be built this way as the fastest drag racing machine possible.
 
Ok so if the front wheels are not meant to touch the ground then why have them. If you have them you have added weight doing nothing usefull.

Also you don't think once electrics are at that level they will impose limits on them as well ?

Third its MUCH easier to make 2 motors or 4 motors and controllers with less power then 1 motor and controller. As a rule the challenge of building the controller increases at the cube of the increase of the power required.

If the front end has wheels they should be powered there is no question in my mind.

If they do not have a lot of contact with the road then they can be driven with small and light motors. But if they are not spun with a motor at all they will slow the drag car down.

Also think of the benefit of having the front wheels pull the car in the direction the driver wants it to go!

You keep using ICE as a baseline for the argument but with electrics everything is different.
 
Arlo1, In this extreme example we are discussing, it basically boils down to dynamic weight transfer. Unless we are talking about a vehicle with a wheel base considerably longer than a TF or with some crazy not invented/allowed yet aero systems, then under track conditions the rear tires will be able to provide sufficient traction for maximum weight transfer.

Let's make it as simple as possible with a comparable physics case. It is lacking the aero/downforce component and steering isn't a factor either:

Think about a MotoGP racer slowing down in the straights from a high velocity under maximum braking conditions. If the upper limit of braking force that can be used in this system for ideal deceleration is perfectly applied, then the rear tire will be just beyond the transition from skimming the ground to being slightly lofted in the air with the rear suspension fully unloaded. Would you argue with that?

Please don't, because that is proven by many in every race. Although it varies, some of the modern GP bikes have such a minuscule rear brake it is catoonishly funny. Most racers do not use it at all for 100% deceleration efforts (because it will lead to tire lockups and upsetting the chassis) and it only exists for more control in loading/unloading the rear suspension and trail braking techniques in other parts of the race track.

Repsol-Honda-wheel-sensor-cover-S.jpg


Now, applying the exact same concepts in acceleration, you will see the same thing. The modern anti-wheelie systems used in MotoGP are devised not to keep the front wheel on the ground, but just an inch or two off of it. People who have spent far more man-hours and millions of dollars to win races than you or I have spent on our toys or engineering degrees have deemed the vehicle accelerates the best this way.

Extrapolate that to our dragster argument in which we must stretch the wheel base, apply two more tires, steering, and aero. What good is the extra weight and complexity of turning the front wheels going to provide you if physics dictates that under maximum acceleration for this type of system dynamic weight transfer properties dictate the front end be essentially weightless? Adding extra downforce to the front for providing traction to the front tires is pointless if there is already enough available at the rear it will also be met with an increased drag and weight penalty.

In an ideal world with no rules I would build an EV dragster from a Top Fuel frame with the following mods:

1. Replace the the two front wheels with a single wheel fully faired in the body
2. Utilize 2 electric motors to drive the rear wheels
3. Have a combination of motor control for low speed steering and aero for effective high speed steering
4. Have automated adjustable AOA for wings front and rear to minimize drag and optimize downforce balance F/R bias to keep the front end weightless all the way to the traps

I guess time will tell what the future fastest dragster in the world will look like when people with EV dragsters start catching up to the Top Fuel technology's timeslips. It is such a shame the fastest dragsters in the world have been stifled for so long by the rules to keep it safe. Who knows how much faster and better the ICE variants would be now if they had not limited them so much. They likely would have devised new control systems, better safety gear, and higher levels of crash understandings that would have trickled down to all motorsports and humanity.

Thanks, Arlo1. This has become a fun dispute and thought project. I think we all have a good grasp on the subject, it is just going to depend on where the hairs are split with the rules defining EV drag cars and airplanes! Basically what kind of EV dragster machine is still allowed to run on a dragstrip before it is relegated to runways or salt flats. I can't wait to find out!
 
flathill said:
A mono wheel is faster than 2wd or 4wd order 3wd or 8wd

Agreed, but add in inconsistent traction road surfaces (including drag strips) and AWD can shine in the moments weight transfer is momentarily lost.
 
Using Top Fuel as a example is not proof its the ultimate configuration.
There are many regs and rules they have to work with that dictate the configuration of the vehicle and limit the performance.
For example, I suspect there are regs that specify a 4 wheel chassis and only 2 wheels to be driven. .?
 
Haven't read them yet, but for the curious
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Fuel#Rules
http://nhraracer.com/content/general.asp?articleid=47000&zoneid=132
 
liveforphysics said:
flathill said:
A mono wheel is faster than 2wd or 4wd order 3wd or 8wd
Agreed, but add in inconsistent traction road surfaces (including drag strips) and AWD can shine in the moments weight transfer is momentarily lost.

True. For bracket racing AWD and a good automatic is almost too easy! It is amazing how consistent some modern cars can be - even some of the turbo ones which you would expect to heatsoak can be hotlapped without slowing down many times.
 
On the subject of Tesla tuning / performance, you dont often see any dyno results.
The Ozzie motor mag "Wheels" recently managed to strap a P100D to a decent dyno and published the results..
https://www.wheelsmag.com.au/news/1703/tesla-model-s-p100d-hits-the-dyno-spits-out-incredible-torque-video
....1400Nm of torque at 3000rpm...but why isnt the initial torque much nearer to that peak value ?
At 2000rpm it is only 50%?of peak and at <1000rpm it looks like it would be under 20% of peak figure ?
 
Hillhater said:
On the subject of Tesla tuning / performance, you dont often see any dyno results.
The Ozzie motor mag "Wheels" recently managed to strap a P100D to a decent dyno and published the results..
https://www.wheelsmag.com.au/news/1703/tesla-model-s-p100d-hits-the-dyno-spits-out-incredible-torque-video
....1400Nm of torque at 3000rpm...but why isnt the initial torque much nearer to that peak value ?
At 2000rpm it is only 50%?of peak and at <1000rpm it looks like it would be under 20% of peak figure ?
Most dynos are not set up to measure the torque properly. The wheel torque is more around 3500 ftlbs on the P100DL
 
As well the traction control limits things and makes them hard to dyno test.
 
Hillhater said:
On the subject of Tesla tuning / performance, you dont often see any dyno results.
The Ozzie motor mag "Wheels" recently managed to strap a P100D to a decent dyno and published the results..
https://www.wheelsmag.com.au/news/1703/tesla-model-s-p100d-hits-the-dyno-spits-out-incredible-torque-video
....1400Nm of torque at 3000rpm...but why isnt the initial torque much nearer to that peak value ?
At 2000rpm it is only 50%?of peak and at <1000rpm it looks like it would be under 20% of peak figure ?


That ramp was the car TCS and dyno's load motor controllers not working well together straight from 0rpm. I can confirm from driving a p100dl that the actual car has no such lag from 0rpm, and actually has the greatest peak acceleration rate right off the line (as you would expect). Insane acceleration from 0-30mph, feels like a second or so, then it slowly tapers off due to battery power limitations up to 60mph (but still pulling very hard). It seems perhaps the dyno/Tesla TCS didn't like trying to capture that low speed surge of torque.
 
liveforphysics said:
Hillhater said:
On the subject of Tesla tuning / performance, you dont often see any dyno results.
The Ozzie motor mag "Wheels" recently managed to strap a P100D to a decent dyno and published the results..
https://www.wheelsmag.com.au/news/1703/tesla-model-s-p100d-hits-the-dyno-spits-out-incredible-torque-video
....1400Nm of torque at 3000rpm...but why isnt the initial torque much nearer to that peak value ?
At 2000rpm it is only 50%?of peak and at <1000rpm it looks like it would be under 20% of peak figure ?


That ramp was the car TCS and dyno's load motor controllers not working well together straight from 0rpm. I can confirm from driving a p100dl that the actual car has no such lag from 0rpm, and actually has the greatest peak acceleration rate right off the line (as you would expect). Insane acceleration from 0-30mph, feels like a second or so, then it slowly tapers off due to battery power limitations up to 60mph (but still pulling very hard). It seems perhaps the dyno/Tesla TCS didn't like trying to capture that low speed surge of torque.


We road in the P90DL (when we came to visit you last spring luke) and it felt strong till about 40mph where it tapered. But WAS SUPER HARD ACCEL from 0-40mph and from 40mph-60mph was still nuts.

I saw someone else dyno a P90DL and the wording was it broke the Dyno. It was over 2000ft-lbs at the dyno and that dyno could not read more then 2000ft-lbs at the wheels.

[youtube]8yu_O8E1jRg[/youtube]
 
Guys, it must be more than 2000 - 3500 ftlb at the wheels ..thats only 400 ft lb or so , split between the 2 motors. ??
most any decent modern shopping car will do that !
No, those guys are a reputable test outfit, and i believe their 1400Nm peak at the motors .
EDIT ..no i dont believe that torque figure now ! ...read on.
..which would suggest approx 9000 ftlb at the (4) wheels ..( 2250ft lb at each wheel ??)
i can see they may have had to baby it up to speed to keep it on the rollers though.
 
Hillhater said:
Guys, it must be more than 2000 - 3500 ftlb at the wheels ..thats only 400 ft lb or so , split between the 2 motors. ??
most any decent modern shopping car will do that !
No, those guys are a reputable test outfit, and i believe their 1400Nm peak at the motors .
..which would suggest approx 9000 ftlb at the (4) wheels ..( 2250ft lb at each wheel ??)
i can see they may have had to baby it up to speed to keep it on the rollers though.


I was guessing at the numbers but it is high..
I didn't think it was that high.

Anyways. I know the OEM 2011 leaf is 1667 at the wheels and mine should be about 2000
 
checking some other sources for verification but p100D info is slim !...
However. the P85 seems to have been reliably tested at 600Nm from its single motor.
... so, with two motors, and a bunch more amps, would suggest 1400Nm is in the ball park.

BUT.. there is something wrong in their data..
the correlation between motor rpm and road speed kph is way off ! :shock:
There is no way it would be doing 84kph ( 55mph) at 3050 rpm motor speed ! ..but its hard to get road speed wrong i believe.
that would suggest a 4.5 : drive reduction...which about half what we know it to be.
..i suspect they messed up the motor speed, which should be about double the figures listed :roll:
which also means either the power or torque figures are probably wrong !

2017-Tesla-Model-S-power-data-(1).jpg
 
Tesla are using induction motor that run over 10krpm if i remember..

so 3 time 3050rpm is 9150rpm and 3 time 84kmh is likely close to the max speed of the Tesla S right

Doc
 
Doctorbass said:
Tesla are using induction motor that run over 10krpm if i remember..

so 3 time 3050rpm is 9150rpm and 3 time 84kmh is likely close to the max speed of the Tesla S right

Doc

Try 18,000 rpm I think thats been mentioned somewhere else but Elon mentions it here.

[youtube]PULkWGHeIQQ[/youtube]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PULkWGHeIQQ#t=43m20s
 
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