Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

I've heated with waste lumber scrap for decades, which would usually go to the landfill. A home made wood boiler (which burns without any visible smoke, the second I've built) in the shop with underground insulated lines to the house, and radiant floor heat, makes it possible. I literally trip over my fuel supply every day while setting trusses on new construction, while the young carpenters on the job site nowadays don't bother, probably because they live in rental housing, having spent all their money (and then some) on new AWD quad cab pick up trucks! I have not paid a heating bill for......40+ years now, and we're talking Idaho mountain winters, so looking back that savings probably paid for all my beer since then. My neighbors (distant, thank God) all have 1000 gallon propane tanks, some 2 or 3, to heat their overly large homes, sited without any thought of winter solar gain, or summer heat gain. Their year round energy bill, with no end in sight, has to be more then even my beer bill, by many times, what a waste.
 
liveforphysics said:
All the human activity that isn't sustainable has a single fate, to conclude.
As far the footprint being bigger than ones home, you're of course right and diet is a bigger factor than transportation. I will continue to enjoy a mostly local and always vegan diet, and using EVs for my transportation, and buying used when possible (I fly in airplanes that burn fuel still for now.)
The best we can do is to set the example with our own life choices.
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Infrastructure and manufacturing is the biggest consumer of energy and is the one aspect that is always forgotten about in these discussions where it is easier for everyone to just look at their own electric, gas, and grocery bill.
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Very important things that we now take for granted will conclude.
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My hope is that we will put aside our divided support for one technology over another to make wise and pragmatic decisions going forward to soften HOW our current way of life is concluded. We need to utilize all forms of electrical production that are available to us to even begin to get off of fossil fuels without a sudden crash of world economic systems. Storage for solar and wind alone are not dense enough, soon enough.
 
wineboyrider said:
Hillhater said:
wineboyrider said:
And then there is Biomass! Burning for the future! http://www.renewableenergyworld.com...ass-generates-32-of-all-energy-in-sweden.html
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Many countries already have some Biomass fueled generation, but if you work out the scale of growth needed to produce even a small proportion of the demand you will see its not practical for large scale use.
115TWh is equivalent to a small 13KVA generator plant.
And it has its environmental issues as well as technical limitations.
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All true Hillhater, but you still have to use the wood for something? I heat my house with old grapevine wood and oak pallets.
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My wife and I just put on warm clothes if it's cold, and have never heated the house.
 
liveforphysics said:
My wife and I just put on warm clothes if it's cold, and have never heated the house.
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I'd never get laid again if I tried this
 
skeetab5780 said:
liveforphysics said:
My wife and I just put on warm clothes if it's cold, and have never heated the house.
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I'd never get laid again if I tried this
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Just got laid. 8)
 
Scrap wood that's too small to be used for anything else makes for good dog chews. When they're done with it it makes for good fertilizer, whether it passes thru them or not. ;)

Before it gets small enough for them to use, there's always one project or another that can use it as wood to build something, or shim something, etc. Fences to build or repair, etc.

If it can't be used for something, can't be chewed on, it can be ground up into shreds to be fertilizer and fill for plants, like to grow new trees.

No need to burn it.
 
amberwolf said:
Scrap wood that's too small to be used for anything else makes for good dog chews. When they're done with it it makes for good fertilizer, whether it passes thru them or not. ;)

Before it gets small enough for them to use, there's always one project or another that can use it as wood to build something, or shim something, etc. Fences to build or repair, etc.

If it can't be used for something, can't be chewed on, it can be ground up into shreds to be fertilizer and fill for plants, like to grow new trees.

No need to burn it.
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I compost the ashes.
 
Hillhater said:
Some large industrial users in Au ...(Steel producers, large paper process mills, ). ..have announced plans to install their own power generation capacity due to the increasing move to renewable grid sources and consequent insecurity of base load. Those will undoubtedly be Thermal generation, gas, waste fueled, etc
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Actually a great many will be ESS (energy storage systems.) This will come from a combination of user installs and utility installs. So far there is 6GW worth of large (commercial/grid scale) storage systems in the US, expanding to over 20GW by 2022. Energy storage systems allow companies to still get cheap power from the grid while guaranteeing reliable power.
 
billvon said:
Hillhater said:
Some large industrial users in Au ...(Steel producers, large paper process mills, ). ..have announced plans to install their own power generation capacity due to the increasing move to renewable grid sources and consequent insecurity of base load. Those will undoubtedly be Thermal generation, gas, waste fueled, etc
Click to expand...
Actually a great many will be ESS (energy storage systems.) This will come from a combination of user installs and utility installs. So far there is 6GW worth of large (commercial/grid scale) storage systems in the US, expanding to over 20GW by 2022. Energy storage systems allow companies to still get cheap power from the grid while guaranteeing reliable power.
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What are they using for storage ?
The Paper mill (Visy) has said it will be installing waste burning generators on several large sites (they have a lot of waste product !)
And the steel mill suggested theirs would be a CHP gas plant as they already have a large gas supply facility.
 
billvon said:
So far there is 6GW worth of large (commercial/grid scale) storage systems in the US, expanding to over 20GW by 2022. Energy storage systems allow companies to still get cheap power from the grid while guaranteeing reliable power.
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Batteries store energy right? Do they mean 20GWh of storage? That is less than 1 day of output of 1 conventional power plant.[/quote]
 
sendler2112 said:
Batteries store energy right? Do they mean 20GWh of storage? That is less than 1 day of output of 1 conventional power plant.
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No, I mean 20GW of _power_. Energy storage is generally 2 to 4 times the power rating depending on the system.
 
If batteries are going to store energy for 3-4 times the 20 GW power rating, then that would be 60-80 GWh of battery :shock:
For the 6 GW that is already in use , it means 18-24 GWh of batteries !
......where are these large battery farms ?
..or have you included pumped hydro etc in that storage ?
 
I think we are seeing just a simple mix up of units by the media that doesn't know the difference between a GW and a GWh. No battery is ever rated on it's power. They are always rated on energy capacity and then a discharge rate. Sometimes a burst rate.
 
sendler2112 said:
I think we are seeing just a simple mix up of units by the media that doesn't know the difference between a GW and a GWh. No battery is ever rated on it's power.
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ESS (energy storage systems) are rated on both power and storage. Power, because it's important to know how much power they can output to support times of high demand in the grid. Energy, because it's important to know how long they can do that.

For example, BYD makes an energy storage system in stackable shipping containers, so you can buy as many as you need. Here's one they designed for China a while back:

=======
China Southern Grid 3MW/12MWH
The world's first megawatt-level, grid-connected,
Lithium iron-phosphate battery storage station
for commercial use.
=======
 
billvon.....you didnt answer the question as to where this 6, GW of storage actually is ?
billvon said:
...... So far there is 6GW worth of large (commercial/grid scale) storage systems in the US, expanding to over 20GW by 2022. .....
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China Southern's 3.0MW system is a long way short of 6 GW !
 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-21/pumped-hydro-renewable-energy-sites-australia-anu-research/8966530

Australia's energy demands are far lower than that of the USA, so we're in a unique position to implement pumped hydro for storing excess solar and wind energy.
It seems entirely feasible that we could at least shift the nation to 50% renewables with pumped hydro within two decades.
 
Oh jeez Jonesy :shock:
Really ..? Not much mention of cost in that report ?
Currently, all Snowy (the biggest and best hydro location) generates 6 GW...when there is enough snow run off etc.
The magic Snowy 2.0 is a 2 GW extention . Any other locations are less optimal/ lower output , hence why they suggest you would need many (hundreds at least) of them to function as storage...and you know what they cost to build !
But here is the kicker...you have to generate the power initially, to "charge" (fill, pump, ) the system before you get anything out.
So for every GWh you want out you are goung to have to build 1.5 GWh of solar or wind to make it work. :shock:
That is in addition to the other totally impossible amount of solar/wind needed to keep the country running .
Try a few simple dollar estimates on that lot.... It a joke !
Batteries would be cheaper, but there is not enough battery manufacturing capacity in the world to do it....
.....even just for Australia !
.....and all the time , you have to keep praying you dont have too many cloudy days or fluky winds.
This is a recipe for scaring every sensible manufacturer out of the country.
 
If we really think we can keep all of the plates spinning without nuclear (we definitely cannot) we must use our current fossil fuel wealth to develop every possible location for hydro all over the world with the minimum regard to ecological impacts of inundation.
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Some intersting cost analysis will come out of the Snowy 2.0 project. They are planning the outcome to allow pumped hydro for an additional 2 GW with storage enough for 1 week which is 330 GWh of storage! Even if the cost is double the projected $2B with the added transmission lines it will be $0.012/ Wh.
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Of course all of the dams are already there.
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Do it. Everywhere.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_Mountains_Scheme#Expansion_plans
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http://www.afr.com/news/politics/pms-snowy-20-to-cost-more-and-take-longer-budget-estimates-hearing-told-20170523-gwb2cb
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http://www.ecogeneration.com.au/why-pumped-hydro-beats-batteries-as-a-storage-solution/
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when there is enough snow run off
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Salt water works! It also could be used near any ocean in salty baron desert areas near dried salty low lands while adding needed humidity to the area. My bet is that batteries will soon be the best option even if not as cost effective for small domestic requirements and personal transport.
 
The Three Gorges Dam and power station cost $30 billion and was built in 16 years.

We've spent $50 billion on an abortion of a broadband network in this country and it still doesn't frocking work. I dread to think what we've spent on international conflict and associated folly.

We know we can find the funds to build bulk pumped hydro storage AND fund the new generation to fill it.

And yes I agree nuclear will be a part of the solution for many places, especially in places where they are already set up for it. Who knows? Maybe Australia will put its hand up to test one of these much fabled "Gen 4" reactors which has never been built anywhere else in the world...
 
sendler2112 said:
If we really think we can keep all of the plates spinning without nuclear (we definitely cannot)
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There's no question that we can. Enough harvestable solar energy falls on the Earth to supply all our energy needs ten times over, and distribution and storage are problems with well understood solutions. The question is - is that the best way to do it? (Answer - probably not.)
 
billvon said:
storage are problems with well understood solutions. The question is - is that the best way to do it? (Answer - probably not.)
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Storage to cover intermittents for the 75 Terra Watt hours of electricity we are currently using every day is completely unfathomable. For even one off day of bad weather. Regardless of how much sunlight falls on the earth. We would have to go to a 6 hour a day sunshine economy.
 
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